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  1. #101

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    I would say most people that don't play an instrument aren't going to appreciate jazz nearly as much as other musicians . Even when I listen to some outside jazz I think, who really listens to this except other musicians trying to play that style.

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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit View Post
    Simple question. If jazz is so unpopular, and we know that is true in terms of sales and the public response, why is Michael Buble so popular? While he may not be one's favorite jazz singer, he is doing pretty well or so it would seem.
    Because he 's a singer, most people like songs with lyrics as opposed to instrumental music

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    Well no, I don't think everyone should like it. I'm talking about hate. I'm talking about down right hostility. I don't get that. It's more than what might meet the eye. There's more there than just not liking the style of music.
    Now, that's something I can't speak of, it's must be your personal experience, Henry. I never encountered hate toward jazz from anyone personally. People could say they don't like it, or don't understand it, but down right hostility? Never.

  5. #104

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    if i had the talent my miles davis cover band would be practicing right now. The miles movie could be very successful if the trailer is anything to go buy

    “When you’re creating your own ...., man, even the sky ain’t the limit.”
    Miles Davis

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Now, that's something I can't speak of, it's must be your personal experience, Henry. I never encountered hate toward jazz from anyone personally. People could say they don't like it, or don't understand it, but down right hostility? Never.
    Frequent audio engineering sites or general music sites, guitar players, rock musicians, songwriters. You'll run into a lot. Also the better you are, regardless of field, you have a target on your back. Maybe that's it too.

  7. #106

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    I've had people just go on, sometimes with an effort to be polite, other times not, online and in person, about how much they absolutely CANNOT STAND jazz. I mean attack mode. It might have been a bit of m, "You think you're all that? Well I think it's shit," type thing.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    Well no, I don't think everyone should like it. I'm talking about hate. I'm talking about down right hostility. I don't get that. It's more than what might meet the eye. There's more there than just not liking the style of music.
    I would call Buble a pop singer, not a jazz singer.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxTwang View Post
    Social perception has a lot to do with it, just saying...

    I would think if it were actually like that we might get better audiences.

    Mind you a young lady flashed her boobs at us at Love Supreme.

    I bet fucking Troika didn't get boobs.

    We must be on the right track...

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    I would call Buble a pop singer, not a jazz singer.
    Why not? He sings jazz standards, good voice, top notch musicians playing for him, still not jazz?

  11. #110

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    Buble is an OK saloon singer. That's what I call them. Better than average for sure.

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazz View Post
    A couple of years back, I wrote a paper about the endless musty "Jazz Is Dead" debate.
    I thought I'd share it here because other interested jazzers may find it germaine to this "popularity" discussion.

    There is also an accompanying illustrative play-list of tracks that I hope those interested can successfully download.
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rki2ar3tq...QUhBMkHla?dl=0

    Core point, I guess, is about relevance.
    In the U.S. jazz seems to have lost relevance, whereas in Europe the tradition continues as relevant.

    Also, this:
    10 of the best jazz clubs in Europe | Travel | The Guardian
    It does seem as if there is more appetite for instrumental music on the continent.... And the London is pretty vibrant (god I hate that word) because there are significant numbers of foreigners and second and third generation immigrant communities who offset the natural, brutish philistinism of the Anglo Saxon peoples, and who also are on nodding terms with this thing called 'time/feel.'

    In terms of 'tradition' in the UK. Well I don't mean to be nasty, but I don't think we ever had a good handle on a jazz tradition. We have a fine tradition of being very good at sight reading and completely unconnected from the waist down.

    France has a tradition, for example.

    Of course if anyone non British says that I'll smash their face in :-)

  13. #112

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    ^^^
    haha
    That's the spirit!
    Last edited by Stevebol; 02-03-2016 at 05:53 PM.

  14. #113

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    Tubby Hayes could play the saxophone. TBH I'm not too sure about any English jazzers since then, there's a reason why if any of our lot are any good they go and live in the states...
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-03-2016 at 05:55 PM.

  15. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Why not? He sings jazz standards, good voice, top notch musicians playing for him, still not jazz?
    hey, lady gaga can sing standards, has good voice but she's not a jazz singer.

  16. #115
    Brits have Allan Holdsworth, that's all you need. (well he has defected to US and lived there since the 70s?)

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994 View Post
    hey, lady gaga can sing standards, has good voice but she's not a jazz singer.
    well, I don't like her voice, so she's out for me, haha. Actually maybe Buble is not jazz, I'm not gonna defend him, I don't care, I don't mind him, but that's about it.

    Honestly, if I listen to jazz, 99% of time it would be instrumental music, that's what I like about it. If I want singers, I put a blues, or a rocknroll record, thats where I get my kicks from. I like my jazz instrumental, thats da truth.

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Why not? He sings jazz standards, good voice, top notch musicians playing for him, still not jazz?
    Motherfucker cannot swing. Therefore not Jazz.

    Why is it so hard to understand, BTW? It's obvious what jazz is.

    If Swing =1 then Jazz = 1. If Swing = 0 then Jazz = 0

    What the hell is wrong with people?

    Islamo-belgique? Islamo-belgique? Don't make me larf.

    I love a bit of world jazz fusion. I play it myself. But it's not jazz. Jazz has an identity. Concrete.

    The problem is there seem to be loads of cats who do not actually swing (either by choice or necessity) and have a bit of an issue about because they know as a result what they play is not really jazz. But they still want to be identified with it for reasons unknown (but guessable).

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Why not? He sings jazz standards, good voice, top notch musicians playing for him, still not jazz?
    I don't hear a jazz approach to his sound, or his band. It's not a putdown. Listen to say, Kurt Elling front a big band, then Buble. I think the difference in approach is pretty clear.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  20. #119

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    (Before I start a flame war, don't take the last post on the nose or too seriously. We are debating different a priori assumptions. There's never going to be agreement here. :-))

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994 View Post
    Brits have Allan Holdsworth, that's all you need. (well he has defected to US and lived there since the 70s?)
    Allan Holdsworth - swing = 0 therefore jazz =0. See how simple and useful my formula is?

    Also he moved to the states. And he's a Yorkshireman.

  22. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Allan Holdsworth - swing = 0 therefore jazz =0. See how simple and useful my formula is?

    Also he moved to the states. And he's a Yorkshireman.
    Alright, I'm gonna go listen to my favorite jazz musician, T bone walker. He swings so it must be jazz, see how flawed the formula is?

  23. #122
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez View Post
    if i had the talent my miles davis cover band would be practicing right now. The miles movie could be very successful if the trailer is anything to go buy

    "Don't call it 'jazz', man - that's some made-up word. It's social music." Looking forward this!

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    "Don't call it 'jazz', man - that's some made-up word. It's social music." Looking forward this!
    Miles seems to be quite a shooty and punchy man from the trailer.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez View Post
    if i had the talent my miles davis cover band would be practicing right now. The miles movie could be very successful if the trailer is anything to go buy

    I thought they were going to go another way.
    Jazz is in desperate need of some middle-class $#@ing attitude.

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994 View Post
    Alright, I'm gonna go listen to my favorite jazz musician, T bone walker. He swings so it must be jazz, see how flawed the formula is?
    Not at all, he was good mates with Charlie Christian. The main difference with T-Bone and Charlie is cultural context.

    You cannot play jazz without blues, it's true (you can play blues without jazz, though.) R&B, black pop music, very closely linked to jazz up to the 60s.

    According to Clapton most blues players wanted jazz gigs.
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-03-2016 at 06:24 PM.

  27. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Not at all, he was good mates with Charlie Christian. The main difference with T-Bone and Charlie is context.

    According to Clapton most blues players wanted jazz gigs.
    well I guess we have to agree to disagree. maybe this is why jazz is so unpopular? because no one agrees on what the hell it is

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Miles seems to be quite a shooty and punchy man from the trailer.
    The middle class has feelings too.

  29. #128

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    Jazz is easier understood as a verb.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  30. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Jazz is easier understood as a verb.
    as in I just jazzed myself? or I'm going to jazz you?

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Tubby Hayes could play the saxophone. TBH I'm not too sure about any English jazzers since then, there's a reason why if any of our lot are any good they go and live in the states...
    Peter King can play the saxophone.


  32. #131

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    Michael Buble may not be a hard core jazz crooner in the sense of a Tony Bennett (or is he excluded as well), but he at least is keeping the flame burning for tunes like the one I'm linking below. Is it pop or pop jazz or jazz lite? Yes, but at least someone under the Medicare age group is listening to a classic song that has roots in the Great American Songbook and is not Justin Beaver ...er Bieber or Beyonce. Not that I would not nail Beyonce in a .....never mind.

    But seriously, do we want to make "jazz" more exclusive in a certain sense than it already is or do want kids raised on bubblegum to begin to acquire a taste for caviar? Can't stand that stuff myself but....I do prefer Champagne to cheap wine.

    Last edited by targuit; 02-04-2016 at 09:18 AM.

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994 View Post
    well I guess we have to agree to disagree. maybe this is why jazz is so unpopular? because no one agrees on what the hell it is
    Absolutely not. I think we should fight instead. Meet me at 4pm outside the school gates tomorrow or you are a smooth jazzer. We must decide the true nature of jazz through the noble rigours of fisticuffs.

  34. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit View Post
    Michael Buble may not be a hard core jazz crooner in the sense of a Tony Bennett (or is he excluded as well), but he at least is keeping the flame burning for tunes like the one I'm linking below. Is it pop or pop jazz or jazz lite? Yes, but at least someone under the Medicare age group is listening to a classic song that has roots in the Great American Songbook and is not Justin Beaver ...er Bieber or Beyonce. Not that I would not nail Beyonce in a .....never mind.

    But seriously, do we want to make "jazz" more exclusive in a certain sense than it already is or do want kids raised on bubblegum to begin to acquire a taste for cavier? Can't stand that stuff myself but....I do prefer Champagne to cheap wine.

    Why listen to Buble when you can have sinatra?


    there's nothing wrong with those tunes but come on do something new with them, don't just reproduce the same old tune the same way



    even this becomes stagnant

  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Peter King can play the saxophone.

    OK, yeah I'm being a bit silly.

  36. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Absolutely not. I think we should fight instead. Meet me at 4pm outside the school gates tomorrow or you are a smooth jazzer. We must decide the true nature of jazz through the noble rigours of fisticuffs.
    no pistols at dawn?

  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994 View Post
    no pistols at dawn?
    Not really a morning person TBH

  38. #137

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    I suspect very few or zero people will watch this but in the touching possibility that someone is interested in hearing something a little more balanced and sensible from me than my normal internet tomfoolery, I think saying it is better than typing. Here it is FWIW:



    I think we are guilty of being sentimental about the term 'jazz' in a way that the likes of Miles really weren't. He felt imprisoned, culturally demeaned by the term. I think the term 'jazz' is of value only in so much as it serves us as musicians in the real world. It may be useful to us, or it may not. If not we shouldn't give it a second thought.

    It doesn't mean you have to stop transcribing Lester Young or Allan Holdsworth or whatever. What's so important about belonging to a club anyway?

    If you play a historical form of jazz - hard bop, say - fair enough. If you are doing some new type of music, you should think about your marketing...

  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit View Post
    Michael Buble may not be a hard core jazz crooner in the sense of a Tony Bennett (or is he excluded as well), but he at least is keeping the flame burning for tunes like the one I'm linking below. Is it pop or pop jazz or jazz lite? Yes, but at least someone under the Medicare age group is listening to a classic song that has roots in the Great American Songbook and is not Justin Beaver ...er Bieber or Beyonce. Not that I would not nail Beyonce in a .....never mind.

    But seriously, do we want to make "jazz" more exclusive in a certain sense than it already is or do want kids raised on bubblegum to begin to acquire a taste for cavier? Can't stand that stuff myself but....I do prefer Champagne to cheap wine.

    Bublegum

  40. #139

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    Derek Bailey played Body and Soul very nicely until the Qualudes kicked in. Try putting that on next time you are feeling romantic with a hot blond, assuming she is not on Qualudes too.

    As for Peter King, the sax player - anybody got the transcription? Is that LUSH or what?

    And Christian, for some reason my "like" button disappeared. Bublegum lll
    Last edited by targuit; 02-03-2016 at 07:05 PM.

  41. #140

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    Ludes? Sounded more like acid.

  42. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit View Post
    Derek Bailey played Body and Soul very nicely until the Qualudes kicked in. Try putting that on next time you are feeling romantic with a hot blond, assuming she is not on Qualudes too.
    funk is for gettin funky

  43. #142

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    I think too many jazzers are playing notes (often too many of those also) and not bringing attitude. Many are as boring as seeing/listening to another coverband playing Mustang Sally.

    Maybe that is why Miles kept recruiting young guys.

    The jazz guys that are bringing the attitude (sad, happy, cheeky, melancholy, desperate, in love, heart broken etc) seem to be doing well. Isn't the only rule about music is it should convey a message/a feeling (Norwegian Black Metal to Pop to Military Marching Band to South Pacific War Cry to Aboriginal Jamboree to Jazz) otherwise it is just an academic exercise?
    “When you’re creating your own ...., man, even the sky ain’t the limit.”
    Miles Davis

  44. #143

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    Steve - I have a true story about 'Ludes and the Philadelphia Symphony Orchestra from around '72. Wanton party and women....those were the days. Of wine, roses, and ....forgot their names...

  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    OK, yeah I'm being a bit silly.
    That's ok, I'll let you off this time.

    Actually when I was a regular visitor to Ronnie Scott's back in the 80s/90s, in addition to Peter King, there were some excellent Brits on the scene, e.g. Gerard Presencer, Tim Garland, Jason Rebello, Jonathan Gee, Clark Tracey. Not sure what they're all up to now. And the superb singer Claire Martin, still very active I believe.

    Also there was a fantastic young drummer called Mark Mondesir, he looked like he'd just been let out of school. He really had the same razor-sharp time and swing as any American drummer. I think he's played more recently with John McLaughlin.

  46. #145

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    I suspect the general audience is less interested in instrumental music (forget about genres) than vocal music as vocal music presents a fairly specific 'story' that instrumental music does not.

    This theory seemed to make sense until I considered modern film, where today people are more attracted to 90 minutes of special effects (hot licks, tricky harmonies, and complex metrics?) without a coherent story line.

    Hmm.

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    the superb singer Claire Martin, still very active I believe.
    For those who haven't heard her, here's some lovely singing by Claire Martin:


  48. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit View Post
    Michael Buble may not be a hard core jazz crooner in the sense of a Tony Bennett (or is he excluded as well), but he at least is keeping the flame burning for tunes like the one I'm linking below. Is it pop or pop jazz or jazz lite? Yes, but at least someone under the Medicare age group is listening to a classic song that has roots in the Great American Songbook and is not Justin Beaver ...er Bieber or Beyonce. Not that I would not nail Beyonce in a .....never mind.

    But seriously, do we want to make "jazz" more exclusive in a certain sense than it already is or do want kids raised on bubblegum to begin to acquire a taste for cavier? Can't stand that stuff myself but....I do prefer Champagne to cheap wine.


    It's not about making anything more exclusive, it's just calling a duck a duck.

    Check out Gretchen Parlato. Does plenty of pop material, but very much a jazz approach.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  49. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    That's ok, I'll let you off this time.

    Actually when I was a regular visitor to Ronnie Scott's back in the 80s/90s, in addition to Peter King, there were some excellent Brits on the scene, e.g. Gerard Presencer, Tim Garland, Jason Rebello, Jonathan Gee, Clark Tracey. Not sure what they're all up to now. And the superb singer Claire Martin, still very active I believe.

    Also there was a fantastic young drummer called Mark Mondesir, he looked like he'd just been let out of school. He really had the same razor-sharp time and swing as any American drummer. I think he's played more recently with John McLaughlin.
    Presencer has moved to Berlin IRC. He's not been a fixture on the UK scene for years - other fish to fry.

    Clark Tracey I haven't seen for ages. I'm sure he's up to stuff. Rebello is in the states. Jonathon Gee is still knocking around. Tim Garland is about - my friend Ant Law is playing guitar with his band (and with Jason Rebello too at Ronnie's on the 23rd March. I should probably go see that if I can.)

    I have played with Mark's brother Mike, and met Mark briefly. Both guys have had stellar careers, but Mark is better known, being McLaughlin's drummer, although Mike has played with MacLaughlin...

    There are some great players around. There are a few really good boppers and straightahead cats too, a bit of a ground swell of people wanting to swing in the traditional way. In terms of people playing straight bop - I play gigs with a young vibes player called Nat Steele who swings like crazy. He has his own circle of musicians playing bop all great musicians. Needless to say these guys go to New York as much as they can.

    The scene churns around. People move on, get better gigs, go elsewhere, or drop off the scene. Younger guys come in and take over. I could list names, but it would go on for several pages.

    I do feel that their is a qualitative difference in the way the NY musicians and most London musicians play. Having played with both I would describe it as night and day. NY bass players, for example, seem to push the beat (without speeding up) in a way that is much less common among UK players (with some exceptions.) In general there is a more emphatic statement of the rhythm with all instrumentalists, a crispness in the attack.

    If you play with a NY musician, their teachers might well have included say, Kenny Baron, or Ron Carter. That makes a terrific difference to their experiential time/feel. It's a bit different to going to the Guildhall, say.

    It's a specific type of energy that good American musicians have...

    We don't really have this. And I want it. I think we all do, really!

    Perhaps it's foolish to emulate this, and we should do our own thing. But what is our own thing? The nearest we come to it I think is the influence of African-Carribean musicians in UK jazz - the Jazz Warriors and so on. That's a very specific rhythmic lilt.
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-03-2016 at 08:42 PM.

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    For those who haven't heard her, here's some lovely singing by Claire Martin:
    Good woman, Claire.
    One of the most goodest things about her, for me, is that she sings and has recorded a couple of my songs.

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Perhaps it's foolish to emulate this, and we should do our own thing. But what is our own thing? The nearest we come to it I think is the influence of African-Carribean musicians in UK jazz - the Jazz Warriors and so on. That's a very specific rhythmic lilt.
    Westbrook-Collier-Garrick-Gibbs, Jazz Jamaica, Loose Tubes, da Rude, Annie Whitehead, Iain Ballamy, Mark Ramsden, Stan Sulzmann, Steve Williamson, Steve Noble, Evan Parker, Django Bates, John Taylor, Courtney Pine, Mick Hutton, John Surman, Dave DeFries, John Parricelli, Denys Baptiste, John Etheridge, Julian Arguelles.... I could fill the page with names of Brits who have pioneered their own unique UK-style thing since the self-conscious sense of inferiority to "the rill thing" (Merkin) began to dissipate finally during the '70s.