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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Why not? He sings jazz standards, good voice, top notch musicians playing for him, still not jazz?
    Motherfucker cannot swing. Therefore not Jazz.

    Why is it so hard to understand, BTW? It's obvious what jazz is.

    If Swing =1 then Jazz = 1. If Swing = 0 then Jazz = 0

    What the hell is wrong with people?

    Islamo-belgique? Islamo-belgique? Don't make me larf.

    I love a bit of world jazz fusion. I play it myself. But it's not jazz. Jazz has an identity. Concrete.

    The problem is there seem to be loads of cats who do not actually swing (either by choice or necessity) and have a bit of an issue about because they know as a result what they play is not really jazz. But they still want to be identified with it for reasons unknown (but guessable).

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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Why not? He sings jazz standards, good voice, top notch musicians playing for him, still not jazz?
    I don't hear a jazz approach to his sound, or his band. It's not a putdown. Listen to say, Kurt Elling front a big band, then Buble. I think the difference in approach is pretty clear.

  4. #103

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    (Before I start a flame war, don't take the last post on the nose or too seriously. We are debating different a priori assumptions. There's never going to be agreement here. :-))

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994
    Brits have Allan Holdsworth, that's all you need. (well he has defected to US and lived there since the 70s?)
    Allan Holdsworth - swing = 0 therefore jazz =0. See how simple and useful my formula is?

    Also he moved to the states. And he's a Yorkshireman.

  6. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Allan Holdsworth - swing = 0 therefore jazz =0. See how simple and useful my formula is?

    Also he moved to the states. And he's a Yorkshireman.
    Alright, I'm gonna go listen to my favorite jazz musician, T bone walker. He swings so it must be jazz, see how flawed the formula is?

  7. #106
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    if i had the talent my miles davis cover band would be practicing right now. The miles movie could be very successful if the trailer is anything to go buy

    "Don't call it 'jazz', man - that's some made-up word. It's social music." Looking forward this!

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    "Don't call it 'jazz', man - that's some made-up word. It's social music." Looking forward this!
    Miles seems to be quite a shooty and punchy man from the trailer.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    if i had the talent my miles davis cover band would be practicing right now. The miles movie could be very successful if the trailer is anything to go buy

    I thought they were going to go another way.
    Jazz is in desperate need of some middle-class $#@ing attitude.

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994
    Alright, I'm gonna go listen to my favorite jazz musician, T bone walker. He swings so it must be jazz, see how flawed the formula is?
    Not at all, he was good mates with Charlie Christian. The main difference with T-Bone and Charlie is cultural context.

    You cannot play jazz without blues, it's true (you can play blues without jazz, though.) R&B, black pop music, very closely linked to jazz up to the 60s.

    According to Clapton most blues players wanted jazz gigs.
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-03-2016 at 06:24 PM.

  11. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Not at all, he was good mates with Charlie Christian. The main difference with T-Bone and Charlie is context.

    According to Clapton most blues players wanted jazz gigs.
    well I guess we have to agree to disagree. maybe this is why jazz is so unpopular? because no one agrees on what the hell it is

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Miles seems to be quite a shooty and punchy man from the trailer.
    The middle class has feelings too.

  13. #112

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    Jazz is easier understood as a verb.

  14. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Jazz is easier understood as a verb.
    as in I just jazzed myself? or I'm going to jazz you?

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Tubby Hayes could play the saxophone. TBH I'm not too sure about any English jazzers since then, there's a reason why if any of our lot are any good they go and live in the states...
    Peter King can play the saxophone.


  16. #115

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    Michael Buble may not be a hard core jazz crooner in the sense of a Tony Bennett (or is he excluded as well), but he at least is keeping the flame burning for tunes like the one I'm linking below. Is it pop or pop jazz or jazz lite? Yes, but at least someone under the Medicare age group is listening to a classic song that has roots in the Great American Songbook and is not Justin Beaver ...er Bieber or Beyonce. Not that I would not nail Beyonce in a .....never mind.

    But seriously, do we want to make "jazz" more exclusive in a certain sense than it already is or do want kids raised on bubblegum to begin to acquire a taste for caviar? Can't stand that stuff myself but....I do prefer Champagne to cheap wine.

    Last edited by targuit; 02-04-2016 at 09:18 AM.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994
    well I guess we have to agree to disagree. maybe this is why jazz is so unpopular? because no one agrees on what the hell it is
    Absolutely not. I think we should fight instead. Meet me at 4pm outside the school gates tomorrow or you are a smooth jazzer. We must decide the true nature of jazz through the noble rigours of fisticuffs.

  18. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Michael Buble may not be a hard core jazz crooner in the sense of a Tony Bennett (or is he excluded as well), but he at least is keeping the flame burning for tunes like the one I'm linking below. Is it pop or pop jazz or jazz lite? Yes, but at least someone under the Medicare age group is listening to a classic song that has roots in the Great American Songbook and is not Justin Beaver ...er Bieber or Beyonce. Not that I would not nail Beyonce in a .....never mind.

    But seriously, do we want to make "jazz" more exclusive in a certain sense than it already is or do want kids raised on bubblegum to begin to acquire a taste for cavier? Can't stand that stuff myself but....I do prefer Champagne to cheap wine.

    Why listen to Buble when you can have sinatra?


    there's nothing wrong with those tunes but come on do something new with them, don't just reproduce the same old tune the same way



    even this becomes stagnant

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Peter King can play the saxophone.

    OK, yeah I'm being a bit silly.

  20. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Absolutely not. I think we should fight instead. Meet me at 4pm outside the school gates tomorrow or you are a smooth jazzer. We must decide the true nature of jazz through the noble rigours of fisticuffs.
    no pistols at dawn?

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994
    no pistols at dawn?
    Not really a morning person TBH

  22. #121

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    I suspect very few or zero people will watch this but in the touching possibility that someone is interested in hearing something a little more balanced and sensible from me than my normal internet tomfoolery, I think saying it is better than typing. Here it is FWIW:



    I think we are guilty of being sentimental about the term 'jazz' in a way that the likes of Miles really weren't. He felt imprisoned, culturally demeaned by the term. I think the term 'jazz' is of value only in so much as it serves us as musicians in the real world. It may be useful to us, or it may not. If not we shouldn't give it a second thought.

    It doesn't mean you have to stop transcribing Lester Young or Allan Holdsworth or whatever. What's so important about belonging to a club anyway?

    If you play a historical form of jazz - hard bop, say - fair enough. If you are doing some new type of music, you should think about your marketing...

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Michael Buble may not be a hard core jazz crooner in the sense of a Tony Bennett (or is he excluded as well), but he at least is keeping the flame burning for tunes like the one I'm linking below. Is it pop or pop jazz or jazz lite? Yes, but at least someone under the Medicare age group is listening to a classic song that has roots in the Great American Songbook and is not Justin Beaver ...er Bieber or Beyonce. Not that I would not nail Beyonce in a .....never mind.

    But seriously, do we want to make "jazz" more exclusive in a certain sense than it already is or do want kids raised on bubblegum to begin to acquire a taste for cavier? Can't stand that stuff myself but....I do prefer Champagne to cheap wine.

    Bublegum

  24. #123

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    Derek Bailey played Body and Soul very nicely until the Qualudes kicked in. Try putting that on next time you are feeling romantic with a hot blond, assuming she is not on Qualudes too.

    As for Peter King, the sax player - anybody got the transcription? Is that LUSH or what?

    And Christian, for some reason my "like" button disappeared. Bublegum lll
    Last edited by targuit; 02-03-2016 at 07:05 PM.

  25. #124

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    Ludes? Sounded more like acid.

  26. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Derek Bailey played Body and Soul very nicely until the Qualudes kicked in. Try putting that on next time you are feeling romantic with a hot blond, assuming she is not on Qualudes too.
    funk is for gettin funky

  27. #126

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    I think too many jazzers are playing notes (often too many of those also) and not bringing attitude. Many are as boring as seeing/listening to another coverband playing Mustang Sally.

    Maybe that is why Miles kept recruiting young guys.

    The jazz guys that are bringing the attitude (sad, happy, cheeky, melancholy, desperate, in love, heart broken etc) seem to be doing well. Isn't the only rule about music is it should convey a message/a feeling (Norwegian Black Metal to Pop to Military Marching Band to South Pacific War Cry to Aboriginal Jamboree to Jazz) otherwise it is just an academic exercise?

  28. #127

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    Steve - I have a true story about 'Ludes and the Philadelphia Symphony Orchestra from around '72. Wanton party and women....those were the days. Of wine, roses, and ....forgot their names...

  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK, yeah I'm being a bit silly.
    That's ok, I'll let you off this time.

    Actually when I was a regular visitor to Ronnie Scott's back in the 80s/90s, in addition to Peter King, there were some excellent Brits on the scene, e.g. Gerard Presencer, Tim Garland, Jason Rebello, Jonathan Gee, Clark Tracey. Not sure what they're all up to now. And the superb singer Claire Martin, still very active I believe.

    Also there was a fantastic young drummer called Mark Mondesir, he looked like he'd just been let out of school. He really had the same razor-sharp time and swing as any American drummer. I think he's played more recently with John McLaughlin.

  30. #129

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    I suspect the general audience is less interested in instrumental music (forget about genres) than vocal music as vocal music presents a fairly specific 'story' that instrumental music does not.

    This theory seemed to make sense until I considered modern film, where today people are more attracted to 90 minutes of special effects (hot licks, tricky harmonies, and complex metrics?) without a coherent story line.

    Hmm.

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    the superb singer Claire Martin, still very active I believe.
    For those who haven't heard her, here's some lovely singing by Claire Martin:


  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Michael Buble may not be a hard core jazz crooner in the sense of a Tony Bennett (or is he excluded as well), but he at least is keeping the flame burning for tunes like the one I'm linking below. Is it pop or pop jazz or jazz lite? Yes, but at least someone under the Medicare age group is listening to a classic song that has roots in the Great American Songbook and is not Justin Beaver ...er Bieber or Beyonce. Not that I would not nail Beyonce in a .....never mind.

    But seriously, do we want to make "jazz" more exclusive in a certain sense than it already is or do want kids raised on bubblegum to begin to acquire a taste for cavier? Can't stand that stuff myself but....I do prefer Champagne to cheap wine.


    It's not about making anything more exclusive, it's just calling a duck a duck.

    Check out Gretchen Parlato. Does plenty of pop material, but very much a jazz approach.

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    That's ok, I'll let you off this time.

    Actually when I was a regular visitor to Ronnie Scott's back in the 80s/90s, in addition to Peter King, there were some excellent Brits on the scene, e.g. Gerard Presencer, Tim Garland, Jason Rebello, Jonathan Gee, Clark Tracey. Not sure what they're all up to now. And the superb singer Claire Martin, still very active I believe.

    Also there was a fantastic young drummer called Mark Mondesir, he looked like he'd just been let out of school. He really had the same razor-sharp time and swing as any American drummer. I think he's played more recently with John McLaughlin.
    Presencer has moved to Berlin IRC. He's not been a fixture on the UK scene for years - other fish to fry.

    Clark Tracey I haven't seen for ages. I'm sure he's up to stuff. Rebello is in the states. Jonathon Gee is still knocking around. Tim Garland is about - my friend Ant Law is playing guitar with his band (and with Jason Rebello too at Ronnie's on the 23rd March. I should probably go see that if I can.)

    I have played with Mark's brother Mike, and met Mark briefly. Both guys have had stellar careers, but Mark is better known, being McLaughlin's drummer, although Mike has played with MacLaughlin...

    There are some great players around. There are a few really good boppers and straightahead cats too, a bit of a ground swell of people wanting to swing in the traditional way. In terms of people playing straight bop - I play gigs with a young vibes player called Nat Steele who swings like crazy. He has his own circle of musicians playing bop all great musicians. Needless to say these guys go to New York as much as they can.

    The scene churns around. People move on, get better gigs, go elsewhere, or drop off the scene. Younger guys come in and take over. I could list names, but it would go on for several pages.

    I do feel that their is a qualitative difference in the way the NY musicians and most London musicians play. Having played with both I would describe it as night and day. NY bass players, for example, seem to push the beat (without speeding up) in a way that is much less common among UK players (with some exceptions.) In general there is a more emphatic statement of the rhythm with all instrumentalists, a crispness in the attack.

    If you play with a NY musician, their teachers might well have included say, Kenny Baron, or Ron Carter. That makes a terrific difference to their experiential time/feel. It's a bit different to going to the Guildhall, say.

    It's a specific type of energy that good American musicians have...

    We don't really have this. And I want it. I think we all do, really!

    Perhaps it's foolish to emulate this, and we should do our own thing. But what is our own thing? The nearest we come to it I think is the influence of African-Carribean musicians in UK jazz - the Jazz Warriors and so on. That's a very specific rhythmic lilt.
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-03-2016 at 08:42 PM.

  34. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    For those who haven't heard her, here's some lovely singing by Claire Martin:
    Good woman, Claire.
    One of the most goodest things about her, for me, is that she sings and has recorded a couple of my songs.

  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Perhaps it's foolish to emulate this, and we should do our own thing. But what is our own thing? The nearest we come to it I think is the influence of African-Carribean musicians in UK jazz - the Jazz Warriors and so on. That's a very specific rhythmic lilt.
    Westbrook-Collier-Garrick-Gibbs, Jazz Jamaica, Loose Tubes, da Rude, Annie Whitehead, Iain Ballamy, Mark Ramsden, Stan Sulzmann, Steve Williamson, Steve Noble, Evan Parker, Django Bates, John Taylor, Courtney Pine, Mick Hutton, John Surman, Dave DeFries, John Parricelli, Denys Baptiste, John Etheridge, Julian Arguelles.... I could fill the page with names of Brits who have pioneered their own unique UK-style thing since the self-conscious sense of inferiority to "the rill thing" (Merkin) began to dissipate finally during the '70s.

  36. #135

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    Back to the original post/question.

    I think most people are highly influenced by what I'll call their music formative years. For me it was probably between 10 and 18 years old. There was a certain freshness, magic, soul and spirit to music when I was that age. Most songs that I loved then I still enjoy and they "take me back". Something changed as I got older and music can no longer be appreciated in the same way.

    For most, and especially non-musicians, there just isn't much exposure to jazz during the formative years. Consequently, that magic, soul, and spirit isn't attached to jazz for most people and jazz music doesn't "take them back".

    I have a friend that claims Van Morrison's Brown Eyed Girl is the best song ever written. There is no logical analysis of that song that can come to that conclusion in my mind. Something else is at work in forming his opinion.

    For whatever reason, those that enjoy jazz don't fit into what I just described. They are the minority.

  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I would call Buble a pop singer, not a jazz singer.
    I would call him an epidemic. My daughter watches a cartoon that has animated girls swooning over an animated singer named Michael Bluebird.

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazz
    Westbrook-Collier-Garrick-Gibbs, Jazz Jamaica, Loose Tubes, da Rude, Annie Whitehead, Iain Ballamy, Mark Ramsden, Stan Sulzmann, Steve Williamson, Steve Noble, Evan Parker, Django Bates, John Taylor, Courtney Pine, Mick Hutton, John Surman, Dave DeFries, John Parricelli, Denys Baptiste, John Etheridge, Julian Arguelles.... I could fill the page with names of Brits who have pioneered their own unique UK-style thing since the self-conscious sense of inferiority to "the rill thing" (Merkin) began to dissipate finally during the '70s.
    Yeah it's great, they are all top musicians.

    I don't really want to say more than that TBH.

    I've been saying stupid things here on this thread (boredom probably) but in all seriousness, I don't listen much to British jazz apart from the stuff I go to live, and I feel a vague sense of guilt about it. Make of that what you will....
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-04-2016 at 04:12 PM.

  39. #138

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    Again, back to the original question:

    Historically, music was made to move people, and if it didn't do that it went away. Early jazz was made with the listener in mind. It could be somewhat complex musically, but was harmonically accessible to the typical listener. More recently I get the impression that many musicians make music for other musicians and not for the general public. If your goal is to push yourself and your music into new academic realms at the expense of traditional harmony and melody you have to be prepared to accept that it may not be widely accepted. The reality is that most people listen to music to be moved emotionally, not intellectually, and many jazz musicians play music that ignores this reality. That doesn't make it wrong, but it does mean that it is less likely to be widely accepted.

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoskier63
    The reality is that most people listen to music to be moved emotionally, not intellectually, and many jazz musicians play music that ignores this reality. That doesn't make it wrong, but it does mean that it is less likely to be widely accepted.
    Who the hell listens to music to be moved intellectually??

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Who the hell listens to music to be moved intellectually??
    American musicologists. You can always count on them to find the crappiest songs for everyone to measure up to.

  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Who the hell listens to music to be moved intellectually??
    I do. I listen to music for all kinds of reasons. Aesthetically. Sonically. Rhythmically. Emotion, intellect, romance. But emotion is just one.

  43. #142

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    I don't. I never did actually. It hits me in the gut or it's bullshit, or if I'm being kinder, background noise.

    It is possible to admire music for its craft while having absolutely no love for it as well. But that's because I'm a musician.

    But the thing is more music moves me now. I have a far less discerning sensibility, and a far higher tolerance for cheese.

  44. #143

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    I can listen to Shostakovich, Bartok, Chopin, Bird, Bach and get great intellectual stimulation. Also aesthetic and emotional. For me the best is when all three are balanced. All gut and no mind only goes so far for me. I can only listen to so much if anything if it's too out of balance with those three.

    And I don't think intellectual is mere craft.

  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Why isn't Cajun music more popular? I lie awake at night worrying about this.
    It's very popular in Louisiana! I've been to Cajun festivals there and had a great time. I enjoy that music. Like bluegrass, only in French.

  46. #145

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    Henry,

    You are right, there must be a balance. The key to making great music is being able to achieve that balance. That is not easy to do, but when it happens it doesn't matter what the genre of music, it will be successful. That said, it's my opinion that concern over popularity is misplaced. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is if one is making music that moves oneself. If so one will be happy whether it makes them a lot of money or not. We would all like our passions to make us financially rich, but the reality is that some just need to get there in a different way, whatever that entails.

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoskier63
    Henry,

    You are right, there must be a balance. The key to making great music is being able to achieve that balance. That is not easy to do, but when it happens it doesn't matter what the genre of music, it will be successful. That said, it's my opinion that concern over popularity is misplaced. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is if one is making music that moves oneself. If so one will be happy whether it makes them a lot of money or not. We would all like our passions to make us financially rich, but the reality is that some just need to get there in a different way, whatever that entails.
    OK. No, no and no. This is my rant. No. ART, jazz, music is a profession. This means that the artist has to get paid in order to make a living, in order to continue being an artist. I know that even the biggest conservative thinks that the artist should work without compensation, but it simply is not right. The hobbyist is fine to be lackadaisical about his or her muse. I mean he can work at a bank, computer programming, be a doctor and have the luxury of sitting back, pour a glass of wine, pick up a guitar, go to online forums and pontificate about what is right or wrong about jazz.

    But there are guys out there, some like me, who have to make a living at this. People seem to want their jazz musicians starving and living on the edge. I don't know. Maybe they think it gives their art some sense of legitimacy. But it's all so quaint.

    "Concern about popularity is misplaced. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is if one is making music that moves oneself. If so one will be happy whether it makes them a lot of money or not."

    Man. What the hell? Sorry to come down on you, but I'm really having a tough time with this one. And its not you, its an entire malaise of a world view. I ALWAYS make music that moves me. What we need is people to put their money where their mouth is. Support those jazz musicians who need your support. Buy CDs, go to concerts.

    Musicians have to make money. Income from recordings has virtually gone out the window. Teaching is the last real avenue for making money in this art. Are you kidding me? Its a terrible state of affairs, especially when the supporters and professed lovers, or audience, thinks you should do it for the love of doing it. Yeah right. There are attorneys a free case once in a great while. Doctors without Borders. I know few professionals who would consider working for the love of it for very long. And the public more or less demanding it of you.

    I'm sorry but I think its a travesty emblematic of our current society.

    Rant over. Carry on.

  48. #147

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    Henry, I think you misinterpreted my main point. I would never imply that artists should work for nothing, only that not everyone is cut out to make it big as a jazz artist, as in any other profession. A true artist will likely follow their dreams and make the music that makes them happy. If that gets it done financially, great. If not they will keep working their ass off and hope it pays off one day. Others may choose to compromise and make another type of music that may not be their true love. The rare artist will be able to pull it off in a big way. Joe Jackson comes to mind as he was a mediocre jazz musician that realized his limitations and did something about it. Is he truly happy? Maybe. I would guess that he would rather make it big in jazz, but it wasn't meant to be, so he chose to stay with music in a different way. Most others could not do what he did, nor would they want to, so they need to figure out a way that works for them. Your point that artists must make money is slightly off-base. Nobody is owed huge success simply because they want it. Great success in anything usually demands very hard work for many years, a total commitment, and a great deal of good fortune. Even then nothing is guaranteed. As for the original question, just because someone thinks their style of jazz should be popular doesn't mean it will, but also doesn't mean it has no value. It may not make that artist rich, and people may even hate it, but it may trigger ideas in music that do become successful. Unfortunately, music is a tougher business than most. The lawyer, accountant, doctor, or computer programmer have huge opportunities to make a good living because their skills are in great demand. Realistically, how many musicians of any genre will ever have a hit single or CD? The artist that can strike the balance you previously spoke of will be successful and should make a very good living, even in jazz. Whether or not they do is a completely different issue. Sorry for a long rant of my own.

  49. #148

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    Any profession that isn't predicated on the survival of others is subject to the whims of the consumer. How do you make someone feel like they can't live without your music?

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    Any profession that isn't predicated on the survival of others is subject to the whims of the consumer. How do you make someone feel like they can't live without your music?
    Post good, dancable old R&B tunes on Youtube. Good ballads too.
    Churches and bars. That's what R&B is about. Rich people like R&B and gangsters. I'm retired so they have to %$#@ off.

  51. #150

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    Snoskier63 - slightly off base? When did I say any artist was owed a huge success. Those are your words, not mine. No one is owed a living wage income. All I'm saying is those pontificating about what the artist should or do, if they love or respect the art, should not download free music and should support those who put their life on the line because they love this music. Sorry to sound so dramatic. But nobody needs to tell me how I need to just accept that I need to sacrifice my life for the love only of this music.