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Che quanto piace al mondo è breve sogno.
[What the world likes is just a short dream.]
- Petrarch -
Explanation for those who have never heard of Petrarch:
The human pursuit of fame, glamor, permanence, occupuying center stage, was his ongoing life theme.
However, Petrarch was smart enough to realize that the "fruit of the laurel tree" as the bitter fruit ("acerbo frutto") would rather bring new suffering than consolation.
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11-20-2019 09:46 AM
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It’s all about the long tail, bro......
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Also I’m amused that pop isn’t actually that popular, and hip hop is still considered cooler/more credible.
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And rock and roll has completely died? Good thing they play guitar in country music. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Guitar over stayed its welcome.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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That seems to be the vibe from what Rick Beato says... Originally Posted by fep
I’d be interested to see how it compares in other countries. For instance here commercial country is not big, but what we call americana (bluegrass, roots country etc) has a strong if non mainstream following.
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Yeah it did. And I’m ok with that. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
My early years learning were dominated by my dads record collection. So I always found it hard to take seriously as a youth instrument.
It just stopped being cool. It was kind of uncool in the 90s. Grunge was about reclaiming the instrument. But now it’s too far gone.
Give it 50 years.
Quite a bit of rock guitar and even a bit of shredding in hip hop and other ‘urban’ music though...
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And now a few words from Frank.
Frank Zappa - Decline of the Music Industry - YouTube
Not that one; the other one.
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Not popular? It's not Pop.
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FZ's explanation is spot-on. Most record releases are money-losers. For every Madonna or Beatles there are thousands of artists who never made a dime. Thus, labels are focused on profit and are extremely adverse to risk. As a result, the music industry remains stuck in a cycle that perpetuates cultural stagnation instead of taking chances that might stimulate evolution of popular tastes towards more interesting and adventurous music. Originally Posted by Betz
Couple this with other ideas mentioned previously, about how non-musicians don't consume music as music but are adopting an identity, joining a club, and how the average consumer's "musical identity" is a product of what they were exposed to in their formative years. It's not hard to see that if the only thing you hear on the radio is rap and hip-hop, well, I guess you grow up thinking that that is what good music should be.
Some of us, though, stumble upon something else and it calls to us. Despite growing up on 60s rock, I found jazz harmony (and Romantic and Impressionistic composers) to attract me like a moth to a flame. But not everyone is wired like that. We could just as well ask "why isn't housecleaning more popular?" Some people - lots of people, I would venture - just don't like doing it. (Cue the excellent bean-salad analogy.) I know a few folks who find cleaning house or pulling weeds in the garden to be a pastime that they really enjoy, but most would probably not make that their first choice to while away a few free hours. So not everyone is wired for jazz. Fine with me. I am, and I don't have a problem with those who aren't.
Finally... after all of those posts about playing guitar, I have to ask the following pretty much completely off-topic question:
Q: How many guitar players does it take to change a light bulb?
A: One to change the bulb and five to stand in the front row and say "Oh, I can do that."
Cheers,
SJ
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And a different perspective, in the Questions and answers at the end of the video. He created an album in his bedroom without a record company. He won 2 Grammys. Things have changed. Originally Posted by starjasmine
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I think there's been a chain of historical circumstances, a combination of adverse factors:
- from the mid-50s, with the arrival of the Rock, which attracted more young people, at least whites, since there was the black branch of the Rn'B, Soul...
- barely the free-jazz page closed, jazz turns to rock, ie fusion Jazz-Rock, Miles Davis first and the cohort of guitarists who follow. We have a new audience, massive, coming from rock, and in which ancient jazz fans do not recognize themselves massively. It's the steamroller of the political economy of music
- come the 80s and the traditionalism of Winton Marsalis and Lincoln Center, with varying effects, but mostly an adulation of revivals of different eras
we must realize that the revival New-Orleans (dixieland) in the late 1940s, is only 20-25 years after its living period of new music. Today, we are 70-80 years away from bebop! Those who play him did not know him when he was born
many well-known jazzmen of the 50s, who arrive in the 70s in the middle of their careers, tell of this terrible period for them, where some stopped music, others better armed composed for movies or television (Benny Golson ...). You can read in Betty Carter and others real cries of revolt against this invasion, and for her the real betrayal of some jazzmen making music that pleases
Marsalis has given them a chance to come back and train young people, that's fine, but what is the connection of this music with the present, socially? none, it corresponds to anything that young people live, unlike rap or hip-hop, not to mention metal
there has been a historical change in musical paradigm with the major festivals, the media that accentuate the gap between commercial music and demanding music as it is, and worse now with Youtube, streaming, etc.
I think we should not at all costs want to make jazz popular, but probably more connected with everyday life, as before
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It would help if we had the technology for instruments to self destruct once a certain limit on rubato arpeggio based solos is reached.
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“Well, if at any point in the last 20 years you've heard a song from The Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, N'Sync, Kelly Clarkson, Taylor Swift, Ace of Base, Katy Perry, Celine Dion, Bon Jovi, Adam Lambert, Carrie Underwood, Pink, Justin Bieber… then you've unwittingly been subjected to the creations of a Swedish born musical genius who goes by the name of Max Martin.Believe it or not, over the past 15-20 years Max Martin has been the brains, ears and talent behind virtually every hit pop song that has been released to the screaming masses. He's personally responsible for churning out more Billboard singles than Michael Jackson and Madonna COMBINED.” Originally Posted by starjasmine
Is this not the logical conclusion to what FZ was saying? If a label is going to invest millions in a singer / song, then the closer it is to something already popular the less risk. The target audience is going to be preteen / teen because they are the ones buying the downloads, running up the YouTube views, and going to the concerts. They are not going to dig Giant Steps; I didn’t when I was 14.
The fact that we are still talking about jazz, be it bop, west coast cool, or fusion, is a testament to its appeal and longevity. It has legs. So Julian Lage probably will not be #1 in downloads or ticket sales any time soon, but he is still out there. Enjoy.
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Looks like jazz is more popular now than ever. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Last edited by Tal_175; 02-14-2020 at 06:19 PM.
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I don't know about that; are you sure you're not color blind? Jazz is in "green". (but not as it relates to money!). Originally Posted by Tal_175
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I don't think it's that simple. Jazz is probably as influential as it has ever been artistically, although Robert Glasper turning up on Kendrick Lamar records is unlikely to make a difference to the pie chart above.... Originally Posted by Patlotch
Is all niches now. Look how unpopular pop is lol.
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People like to sing, dance and feel something from music.
You can't sing or dance to the bulk of American jazz. And, the emotional appeal varies. A lot of the time, it's subtle.
I watched the Grammy awards show. The audience is smiling and moving to the hiphop performances. Hard to imagine that kind of response for jazz, even when people like it. It's just a different kind of impact.
Jazz is also very hard to play really well and the quality of the band really makes a difference.
Jazz seems to be pretty popular in NYC, where the level of skill tends to be very high. To the point where it's barely the same music that I hear locally. It has led me to think that if the musicians know what's going to happen as they start playing the song, it's not jazz. Jazz has to be created on the spot. It's the spontaneity that makes it great. I know that that's too extreme, but when I go to NYC that's a characteristic of the shows where the place is packed and not the shows where there are empty seats, even for name players. Small sample size, though.
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I was having a convo with a drummer the other day. Really good jazz player, but kind of stopped playing jazz - all that counting and odd time. The jazz scene is all originals here... brain music mostly (not entirely TBF, but a lot of it). People who run the scene are like prog rock fans, that's what they want. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
He said that over here (far from the light of NYC) basically few jazz players get that rhythmic intensity in music; you have to go to Brazilian or Cuban stuff. In NYC, it's different, and you can tell the difference in the intensity which even bog standard straightahead gigs are played, the rhythmic cohesion and so on. It might not want to make people dance... but it has a groove.
I wish (most) people would get over the surface complexity of jazz and play as if it's actual music. And blinking rehearse. I never get the feeling players in NYC are going through the motions...
I played a lot of old style swing music. I think there's a lot to be said for that stuff, the older generation (bop guys) grew up with that stuff. Now you learn jazz as an art music.
Anyway there's not a massive divide between contemporary jazz and hiphop these days. One shades into the other.
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So much truth here. Originally Posted by christianm77
Although a lot of current jazz that's hip hop informed sounds like it's being just a little "too clever" a lot of the time. And not to be that guy, but a lot of the time, it's the white dudes.
And then on the other side of the spectrum you got your swing gatekeepers.
And in between, glimmers of hope. Christian Atunde Adjuah's "stretch music," a kind of rock/hip hop/jazz hybrid that sounds authentic because it's music he grew up on, blended. Kamasi Washington's "mid period Trane meets CTI" explorations. Again, it sounds authentic. He's making the music he wants, not the music he thinks maybe someone will like. On the guitar front you got a guy like Julian Lage, who literally just plays whatever the fuck he wants. There's music like this out there...Yusef Kamaal...Ezra Collective...It's actually hip, not just music for music students.
Me? I just want organ jazz to come back in hard. Organ group with with a "juicy" tenor and congas, man, that's the band I want to be in.
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I think the current definition of Pop Music might include popular country and hip hop, unless you define Pop Music as popular music from the '50s thru the '80s or '90s.
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Yes it's the green slice. But when was the last time Jazz was more popular than that green portion? Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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And, while I'm on the subject ... I also noticed that some of the top shows featured jazz artists who seemed to appreciate that they're also entertainers. Originally Posted by christianm77
Joey D, at Dizzy's, sang, played trumpet, talked to the audience and also played organ.
Also at Dizzy's Trio Da Paz showed up with 6 musicians (large for a trio, no?). These players included Harry Allen and Claudio Roditi (sadly, both since passed) and Maucha Adnet, a singer. It was a show, not just a jazz band.
Eliane Elias kicked off her shoes and danced the samba. She played well known tunes and had extended 3625 jams with great rhythm. That was at Yoshi's in Oakland, not NYC.
Robert Glasper, at the Blue Note, had a laptop computer player as the fourth player, in what was otherwise a classic piano trio, doing sound effects, leading a singalong and playing spoken word clips. I mostly couldn't tell what was planned, rehearsed or improvised in more than an hour of music.
At the smaller shows downtown (Zinc, Mezzrow and Small's), the crowded shows generally featured name players. Some of these were less focused on entertainment and more focused on head-solos-head sort of performances, but you could see that the musicians were creating things on the fly, e.g. the drummer changing up the feel with the other musicians looking surprised and then reacting.
I also attended some shows which were less entertaining/adventurous. Despite name players, there were empty seats at Zinc, which is a tiny place.
There is jazz tourism in NYC. For example, my wife and I were the only people speaking English at our table for 12 at the Blue Note. Others were from Asia and South America. But, at the smaller, less well known clubs, there were plenty of locals, including musicians (some of whom I knew by reputation) in the audience.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 02-15-2020 at 07:11 AM.
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I don't think a segment of a genre splitting off to more experimental abstract adventures affects the popularity of the genre in general.
Rock had that tendency from the beginning. Psychedelic/progressive stuff in the 60's and 70's, fusion, modal, odd time stuff in the 80's. That didn't prevent Bon Jovi and AC/DC from pumping out dive bar favorite top 40 hits.Last edited by Tal_175; 02-14-2020 at 04:55 PM.
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I mean if they had to water down Wes Montgomery so his records would sell (in the 60's!), what hope do we have today for jazz to reach a wider audience?
What jazz musician has more capacity to appeal to a non-jazz audience while remaining true to the style? Even the rock guys like him
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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Some of the free players swing harder than the straight ones...
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