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  1. #1

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    A promising young drummer enrolls at a cutthroat music conservatory where his dreams of greatness are mentored by an instructor who will stop at nothing to realize a student's potential.

    A good film, sure, with a story line that could have easily been about any other pursuit of excellence and the price paid for it. But it uses Jazz as it's vehicle, so what does the Jazz community think of it? How do you think it portray's issues important to the Jazz community (in particular Institutionalised education)? Also, the more general issues such as the perils of tough love, or the fallout of over-achieving?

    I'm sure the trainspotters among you found a lot of factual errors as well...

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  3. #2

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    Haven't seen it yet but I certainly will. Tough love versus unconditional love is a hot topic now. Choosing jazz and in particular a drummer is interesting in itself. Drummers are overlooked as trend setters in jazz.

  4. #3

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    See many Jazz musicians on sites ticked off with this movie. The movie isn't playing out here in the desert so all I know is what I've seen in previews. Tough teaching is part of learning Jazz be it in a school or even learning in the streets. I had a pretty tough teacher in music school, not as bad as the Whiplash scene, but he would rip student a new a$$hol3 usually for obviously not practicing enough. I was just transitioning from Rock/Funk player to Jazz and another teacher a hardcore Jazzer usually had some nasty (but funny) comments for some of my arranging homework. I talked about it here one Pat Martino used to lash out at students at GIT most the time in seminars in front of others. I had Pat rip me good once, but luckily it was in a open counseling session so only one other there. Now in Pat's defense this was before his brain tumor was diagnosed and that was affecting his personality some, Pat was tough street musician in the vein of the Sandole brothers. The Sandole brothers were legendary Jazz teacher and notorious for ripping into students. Now Joe Dioro was great he could rip you in the nicest way, so you did realize it, until you walked away. So there is a history myth and reality of tough teacher in Jazz.

    Now when I got into computer I ran into the same thing starting out. We used to joke that as a noob better come to work with skin like a rhino and asbestos underwear. Difference this wasn't teacher it was peer to peer. So I think a lot of the tough teacher and tough peer pressure is a part of the apprenticeship system especially in areas that are male dominated. You hear same thing in sports all the time.

    I think it's just part of shaking students up early on to see if they got it to stick it out and deal with real world after graduation. I feel that once you figure out that's what it's about then you enjoy the challenge and take on a "bring it on", or "I'll show them" attitude. I know other here disagree, and maybe because I lived through that in two different fields, but I have no problem with the tough schooling.

  5. #4

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    I think teachers should get off both tough love and unconditional love and simply do their jobs.

  6. #5

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    Just saw Whiplash at a matinee...there was a guy right in front of me texting through the
    first 10 minutes.....leaned over and [politely] gave him some tough love...ha ha... he baled.

    The movie succeeded for me in that, yes this is a tough field of endeavor and you had better
    be ready for the challenges that will arise.
    The teacher figure is well cast, but his out of character show of softer feeling didn't ring quite true
    for me but he quickly reverts to type.
    [Caricature of Buddy Rich I reckon]

    I dug it when he kicked ass, the teacher figure that is.


    The guy playing the student did a.....good job... Great job actually.
    I'll be into spoiler territory if I go on.

    Go and see it!

    I came away wanting to get into the shed and rip it.

  7. #6

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    I've never had a teacher rip me to pieces, not even raising their voice, but I've had plenty of bad things said about my playing which were true and some of those things take a while to understand. It's just about honesty, as long as the teacher is honest about your playing and your honest with your playing, then that's pretty much it for me. I don't see yelling at someone because they don't practice their arpeggios or something, you need to be mature about practicing and playing.

  8. #7

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    I love the scene where he's given up drums after the traumatic experience he had, suddenly after months off of the set gets an invitation to do a concert, shows up with no rehearsals, no knowledge of the program and plays an epic solo until his hands bleed. Who's that good after months of not playing? Who goes into a high profile showcase concert with no knowledge of what's being played? Who bleeds from playing drums for two songs? And why ever would this prove to his psychotic teacher that this kid was a genius?
    I watched this movie and I thought "Who measures their musical worth soully by their performance in a school big band? Why didn't he have any other situations he played in? Everybody I know becomes really great by playing in different situations, no maniacally trying to please a teacher. And I thought, what if this character were played by a girl. And the movie got REALLY weird. One dimensional characters playing a cardboard prop drama about a completely fictionalized accounting of jazz as boot camp defiance. Suspension of reality aside, I felt like this was an afterschool special with grimacing adolescence (on the part of teachers and students alike) and bloody S&M liberally mixed it in to give it an adult movie status.

    Hmmm, I don't know if I really liked it or not...
    David

  9. #8
    Yeah, bit's of it were indeed offensive. Couldn't help thinking that if Steve Gadd was your teacher, he wouldn't be so obsessed about how fast you could double time swing, but how solidly you could keep basic time with appropriate feel/groove...

    The non musicians in the audience came away thinking that Jazz is hard, because playing it as written is hard ( like classical music). Skill at Improvisation - no mention made of it! So kinda lost me right there...

    And making parallels between Bird and an over achieving young drummer seems daft, but then if the focal character was a sax player (or guitarist, pianist etc), then you wouldn't have so much sweat or blood (maybe just the tears ).. which Hollywood loves so much. Ironic that we have the scene at the dinner table when the drummer sees himself superior to his sports playing table mates, yet his whole struggle was portrayed more like Rocky Balboa's than Charlie Parker's...

    But the film does pose interesting questions beyond it's own story line. If tough love (extreme in this case) can produce one Charlie Parker for every 999 emotionally wrecked casualties, is it justified? ie, no cymbal thrown at young Charlie (I always thought it was at his feet), then no Bird. In hindsight we're thankful of the sacrifices made, some of them cruel, that gave us enduring art to admire for posterity, but we live in a politically correct world today that admonishes such "tough love"...

  10. #9

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    College level marching bands train like Navy Seals compared to the crying sissies in Whiplash.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    But the film does pose interesting questions beyond it's own story line. If tough love (extreme in this case) can produce one Charlie Parker for every 999 emotionally wrecked casualties, is it justified? ie, no cymbal thrown at young Charlie (I always thought it was at his feet), then no Bird. In hindsight we're thankful of the sacrifices made, some of them cruel, that gave us enduring art to admire for posterity, but we live in a politically correct world today that admonishes such "tough love"...
    That's really one of the stupidest premises for the musical genius. This teacher's entire motivation (rationale) for being an irrational, self centred, destructive "educator" (remember, this is in a school, not a professional big band in the 40's) is the purpose of a college music program is to vet and filter for one genius, and that that genius needs to be beaten into realization. So let me get this right, Charlie Parker's entire existence owes itself to one night on the bandstand where he was humiliated into developing the bebop idiom. Hmmm, so who beat Diz into his equally brilliant revolutionary invention? And more importantly, how about the fact that Charlie Parker by well documented accounts was devoted, loved the music, had exceptional drive before the Jones incident and continued to be self motivated after...that incident being an interesting anecdote but not certainly the raison d'etre of Parker's arc.

    I found this clip of a young kid, 16 years old, playing with a big band. How DOES she play without her fingers hemorrhaging all over the drums? Take a guess, do you think this comes from self motivation?




    I've known of cases, plenty of cases, of hard assed teachers who take angry catharsis as a personal mission. I've studied with unpleasant teachers myself. But I don't know of one exceptional player who, having experienced this, will say with no uncertainty, that they became what they did in spite of, and not because of bad teaching. I had friends who played with Buddy Rich. Nobody would ever claim their musical success came as a result of his being a bastard to his sidemen.

    As to the movie, yeah I know it's license taken to make a dramatic story; it's not based on any reality, and everyday I see real success stories, Tom Harrell, Bud Powell, Bird's real story, Art Pepper, Billie, Billy Bang, and countless more who's stories of real triumph are taken in stride and dwarf Whiplash's Hollywood distraction. But what do you want, it's a commercial movie: smooth cinema?
    Sorry for ranting..
    David

  12. #11
    No, rant away! I'm certainly not offended, heck it wasn't my premise.... I guess you can't say for sure whether the Jones incident was the catalyst for Bird's development, but you'd have to admit that a highly competitive environment can bring the very best out in people.

    I sometimes wish there was someone to kick my ass when I was younger!

  13. #12

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    we don't need drama. coaching and mentoring will do, along with sub-par grades, getting kicked out of the band, kicked off the team, kicked out of the program, etc. people can figure it out on their own. people aren't dogs.

    that said, a marching band or football team are different. when you have so many people to manage at once, everybody else is waiting, and have to shout to be heard across long distances in the out of doors that's different from a music master class. as long as you balance out the yelling with some positive comments people will get it.

    but pros who are a$$holes in a master class? they're a$$holes period. they could just say "i think you have a long way to go. on the positive side you have X, on the negative side you have y. keep practicing and good luck. next student please!"

    no music teacher was ever dumb enough to mess with me unless they had a lot of supporters around them, but then i only participated in collegiate music for 5 years. i did see one choir director who enjoyed yelling at the choir the whole time, but i didn't see too many others act up. pressure affects people, some aren't fit to lead. (like Buddy Rich apparently). class and character matter, even under pressure, even when you're frustrated.

    i know of a story where a professor at OU had a large auditorium freshman class and was yelling at the students in an abusive, power trip manner. one star football player simply stood up, calmly walked to the front of the class, right up to the professor and said "nobody talks to me that way". the professor backed down. i like that story.
    Last edited by fumblefingers; 11-04-2014 at 10:38 AM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    No, rant away! I'm certainly not offended, heck it wasn't my premise.... I guess you can't say for sure whether the Jones incident was the catalyst for Bird's development, but you'd have to admit that a highly competitive environment can bring the very best out in people.

    I sometimes wish there was someone to kick my ass when I was younger!
    Playing with people who know much more than me is certainly a catalyist! But I always remember the friendly hang after and before the sets more than I do the music at this point, truth be told. Personally, I never found incentive in people I didn't like or respect. The world in that movie seemed a joyless experience. Hard enough living with the uphill battle to stay alive after school without making your life a living hell everyday getting there. Competition is good. Is getting knocked down really what makes music or jazz what it is though? I see the history of jazz, jazz especially, as the fight for integrity and innovation against outside forces. Rocking the boat from within is not taken lightly, as Ellington showed Mingus. Jazz has a certain solidarity to it. The assertion that you have something to say in the face of an outside world that tells you otherwise.
    That's the history. Jazz wouldn't have become what it was hadn't players found their place within an artform against the odds presented by the mainstream, whether we're talking race or aesthetics. I think competition works when you've got something to drive you on, when someone's in your corner.
    David

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Choosing jazz and in particular a drummer is interesting in itself. Drummers are overlooked as trend setters in jazz.
    Really? Art Blakey and the messengers was the training ground and graduate school second only to Miles, in my book. Wayne Shorter trained and got his formative leadership skills with Blakey right before he became part of the great quintet of Miles. Wynton, Lee Morgan, probably the most important figures of that era found their voices in Blakey's band.
    The Jones dynasty, Papa Jo, Elvin, Philly Jo, all defined the rhythmic drive of the sound of jazz. Paul Motian's sense of space was a major force from the time he allowed Bill Evans to discover synergetic improvisation up to his death. He was loved, respected and acted as mentor to players like Kurt Rosenwinkel, Ben Monder, Mick Goodrick, Bill Frisell, Tony Malaby and so many others.
    Drummers really have been at the forefront of the evolution of jazz, I don't know why they aren't seen that way by guitar magazines though.
    David

  16. #15
    ... and you forgot to mention Tony Williams!

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    ...I see the history of jazz, jazz especially, as the fight for integrity and innovation against outside forces. Rocking the boat from within is not taken lightly....
    David
    From what I read, there was also certainly a lot of in fighting as well...

  18. #17

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    When a teacher sets a malicious example, students work to that template. That's the danger of a teacher (or coach-can you say Jerry Sandusky?) abusing his power. Right, was Jerry Sandusky looking for that one player he could "push" to greatness? In the movie, people do fight for recognition. In real school it's done with an audition; rewarded by approval of your peers when they want to gig with you.
    David

  19. #18

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    As I noted the Sandole was know to be a really tough teacher, but he had some students that didn't mind. John Coltrane and supposedly Sandole was one to get Trane digging deeper into harmony and theory in the late 40's thru early 50's. Other students Michael Brecker, James Moody, and a few guitarists guitarists like Jim Hall, Joe Diorio, Pat Martino.

    I think you guys forget teachers don't get tough if you've doing the work. Form own experience and from being around music education a long time I find the touch teachers are also the ones who care the most and will spend the time to work with you.

    For me I would rather have a teacher get tough with me if I slack off or not thinking than one that goes Oprah. The tough teacher will motivate me, the other just leaves me with feeling with no penalty for slacking off, not a good life lesson for any career path. As I said Pat Martino ripped me a new one at GIT in 1980. I still use that memory when I don't think I'm getting things done thirty years later.

  20. #19

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    Is anybody ever really up for tough love, in the moment?

    I'll be the first to admit--I've learned very valuable lessons from "tough love." But in the moment I was recieving it, I wasn't all "Lay it on, man, I'm learning!" It hurt. Bad.

  21. #20
    In the moment, no, it can bloody hurt. But rising to the challenge, risking getting hurt and beating the rap.... yeah, there can be satisfaction in that. The ends justifies the means and all that...

  22. #21

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    I know an older musician who has played with a who's who of famous jazz greats, and lessor known jazz greats, and I grilled him about his experiences with them over a few glasses of wine. I was surprised at how kind he said EVERYONE was to him, coming up. Apparently, even the drug addicted ones were pleasant to work with.

    The anxiety that a mean teacher can create seems like it would be very harmful to the creative process. Good improvisers shouldn't have a voice in their head shouting "Don't screw up!"

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonzo
    Good improvisers shouldn't have a voice in their head shouting "Don't screw up!"

    They don't because they know how to make any note work, even the unintended ones. What the old saying the next note is what determines if it was a mistake. Herbie Hancock talks about when he first played with Miles and ending a solo on a real klunker and grimacing and then looking at Miles. Miles played one note that made Herbie's klunker work. Then afterwards Miles told Herbie one of his Miles-isms (Miles slang still has people scratching their head) but Herbie understood.

  24. #23

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    Not to harp on word choice too much but "tough" is what a person can absorb, not what they can dish out.

    people who are "tough" on others may be tough, or they may not be, but you can't really tell when they have the upper hand and act like a dictator.

    they may in fact be quite weak.

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    Not to harp on word choice too much but "tough" is what a person can absorb, not what they can dish out.

    people who are "tough" on others may be tough, or they may not be, but you can't really tell when they have the upper hand and act like a dictator.

    they may in fact be quite weak.
    Interesting distinction, never really thought of it that way... still, for the sake of the discussion, we know what we mean when we say "tough love", at least it works better than "mean love" or "appearing to be malevolent, but really benevolent deep down..."

  26. #25

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    yeah, its like a tough hide. it can take abuse.

    gruff is a better word for what people are describing here, not tough.

    in sports they talk about mental toughness. they're talking about a person who while getting whipped factors it out of their mind, and rallies to come back. to be tough is to be resilient.