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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    Since I haven't seen the film, I don't have any skin in the game here, but this thread seems to be comprised of:

    1) Some people who didn't like Whiplash for various reasons.
    2) Some people who think it is important to aggressively explain to everyone that didn't like whiplash that they are morons.

    Maybe re-evaluate your classifications?
    Indeed.
    I think its okay to have a positive and negative opinion at the same time. But its hard to get across on the internet. I know that I'm not actually disagreeing with what many people are saying, I'm just adding on another opinion that doesn't contradict the existing opinion...as well as defending myself from being called XY and Z things.
    I feel like we all kind of agree on the basic premise of whiplash being a fantastic movie but not a comprehensive overview of jazz. Stemming from this basic premise, certain misunderstandings have risen(based on how importantly each of us sees the "not a comprehensive overview" part) and we are now trying to hash them out although ultimately we are all thinking largely similar things about whiplash.
    Last edited by pushkar000; 03-05-2015 at 09:35 AM.

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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    Since I haven't seen the film, I don't have any skin in the game here, but this thread seems to be comprised of:

    1) Some people who didn't like Whiplash for various reasons.
    2) Some people who think it is important to aggressively explain to everyone that didn't like whiplash that they are morons.

    Maybe re-evaluate your classifications?
    If you're referring to my comments, I never said anyone was a moron. I respect anyone's right to not like the movie but to say that it's not about jazz is just not true. At least from my perspective as someone who went to a jazz conservatory and devoted over 20 years of my life to 4+ hours a day practicing (many days 6+).

    My perspective is that it was a great movie and it represented accurately everything I went through at the university of miami.

    I do think the physical and verbal abuse was *WAY* over the top. But everything else in the movie rang true to me.

    As an aside, the band leaders and instructors at the UofM certainly humiliated plenty of players and brought people to tears.

    So you can say the movie sucked but if you think the movie doesn't represent at least a slice of what it's like to be a music student at a major jazz program (at least when I went to school) I think you're wrong.

  4. #103
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonray
    Bret Primack's view is pretty much in accord with mine.

    +1

    I loved it. I thought it was a very well-paced film. For me, it was J.K. Simmons's (formidable) antagonist that made it a powerful piece of storytelling. The message I took from it is "be unstoppable".

  5. #104

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    Abuse of students by instructors doesn't exist? Anyone familiar with Bobby Knight?



    I could have posted his chair throwing event, or his half-time rant, or his press conferences, but this gives you the picture.
    Last edited by zigzag; 03-05-2015 at 10:08 AM.

  6. #105

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    I would say that Whiplash is not a jazz movie. It's a movie about ambition with jazz as the background. As such I don't think it had any responsibility to portray jazz one way or the other.

    I went back and read Ethan Iverson's full post and still stand by the statement that it's an idiotic statement. Yes, the roots of jazz and drumming are importing to recognize. That doesn't mean liking a white drummer's playing the most makes you racist. I also think his essay is guilty of what I'm talking about above. It puts an onus of responsibility on the movie which isn't deserved.
    Last edited by drbhrb; 03-05-2015 at 11:48 AM.

  7. #106

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    it just sounds like a few people wanted the movie to be something that it never advertised itself to be, at least as far as I'm aware.

    who said it was a "jazz movie"? did it claim to be that? of course not. in 2014 that would have been the worst marketing strategy one could think of.

    although i said it above, i'll reiterate the point that it was not a documentary. it was not titled "Inside Berklee, what it's like to be freshman at the world's top contemporary music school".


    it was a story of personal triumph in a setting other than athletics, which is the usual environment for such movies.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonray
    Bret Primack's view is pretty much in accord with mine.

    i guess i should have read this first. my sentiments exactly.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    it just sounds like a few people wanted the movie to be something that it never advertised itself to be, at least as far as I'm aware.

    who said it was a "jazz movie"? did it claim to be that? of course not. in 2014 that would have been the worst marketing strategy one could think of.

    although i said it above, i'll reiterate the point that it was not a documentary. it was not titled "Inside Berklee, what it's like to be freshman at the world's top contemporary music school".


    it was a story of personal triumph in a setting other than athletics, which is the usual environment for such movies.
    I found out about this movie because someone told me that it was a jazz movie. It is called a jazz movie here and there on the internet. Maybe the movie crew did not want to bill it as a jazz movie, but hey, people sure are talking about it as one. We're discussing this on a jazz forum for starters.

    But while my initial expectations for this movie proved wrong, let me say that I was in no way disappointed, or I wanted it to be this or that. I just had to shift my preconceptions to the back of my head and enjoy it for what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    If you're referring to my comments, I never said anyone was a moron. I respect anyone's right to not like the movie but to say that it's not about jazz is just not true. At least from my perspective as someone who went to a jazz conservatory and devoted over 20 years of my life to 4+ hours a day practicing (many days 6+).

    My perspective is that it was a great movie and it represented accurately everything I went through at the university of miami.

    I do think the physical and verbal abuse was *WAY* over the top. But everything else in the movie rang true to me.

    As an aside, the band leaders and instructors at the UofM certainly humiliated plenty of players and brought people to tears.

    So you can say the movie sucked but if you think the movie doesn't represent at least a slice of what it's like to be a music student at a major jazz program (at least when I went to school) I think you're wrong.
    As a student in a conservatory, I have to respectfully disagree and say that my life is nothing like what was shown in whiplash. I practice upwards of 10 hours most days(I am lucky not to have to work alongside my studies) and I have no time for a personal life. But beyond that, what he's doing and what I'm doing and what jazz is to him and me - totally different.
    But I've never been in a big band. So I cannot see things the way you can. Also my instructors are far less rough than the ones you have had.
    Last edited by pushkar000; 03-05-2015 at 12:04 PM.

  10. #109

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    I just saw the movie and really enjoyed it. Great performances in what was essentially a 2-man movie.

    I agree it was not a movie about jazz but it did give jazz band and the genre in general the respect one usually sees in movies about orchestral music prodigies, or even math and science prodigies.

    (Reminds me of the quote attributed to Isaac Stern, when a woman remarked, I'd give anything to play like you, he said, would you give 10 hours a day of practice?)

    It is really a movie about the obsessive relationship between an eccentric teacher and his talented pupil. It happens a lot and I've even seen this to some degree in high school and college academics and the medical field. It is about the effort it takes for someone with talent to rise to the top.

    My one critique of the Simmons character was that on screen anyway he was totally negative and focused almost all of his attention on the drummer. I think a more realistic situation would be someone who offered a transcendental goal for the entire orchestra, but colored by a nasty streak. I have seen a lot of narcissists over the years both professionally and personally and they are almost always 99% charming 1% horrible, though the horrible part truly colors the overall picture.

    I loved, loved, loved the ending. It shows the young drummer taking control and challenging the leader, and when the leader realizes this he gives in and smiles. His work was done.

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    My one critique of the Simmons character was that on screen anyway he was totally negative and focused almost all of his attention on the drummer.
    i didn't see it that way. He was critical of the saxes and trombone section too. I looked at it like you were seeing the band rehearsal from the viewpoint of the drummer who was obviously the main character.

    And I took away exactly the same thing you did about the ending. I felt like the two characters actually felt animosity towards each other because they were both selfish. The drummer wanted to be one of the greats at any cost and the director did too. Neither cared so much about everyone else and the director was obviously vindictive but when the drummer pushed through the ceiling and rose to a level of greatness, they both realized that they had taken their performances to the next level and the animosity gave way to mutual respect.

    I did feel like the use of anti-gay , racist and even anti-semitic slang was offensive to me. I think they could have scaled back the language and even some of the physical abuse to some degree.

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    no, he counted 5, 6 7 because it was a hank levy tune in 14/8. duh
    Hank Levy wrote a lot of charts in odd time signatures.

    One time, Buddy Rich wanted to play one of Levy's charts, but he couldn't sight read, so he got the drummer that he hired to sight read charts for him to play it, but he couldn't get the right feel for it.

    Then, Buddy tried it after hearing the other drummer play it, and Buddy couldn't get the right feel for it.

    Buddy got disgusted, and crumpled up the chart into a ball and chucked it in the air.

    They gave the crumpled up chart back to Hank, and he kept it posted on the wall of his office cause he got a kick out of the whole situation!

    When I was a kid, the kid band I played with went up to the Quinnipiac Big Band Jazz Competition.

    Hank Levy's Towson State Band was there, and they wiped the floor with us.

    We were still in high school, and we were competing with monster college bands like that- don't ask me why...

    The whole experience of taking a long bus ride, and having to play as soon as you got there, turned me off to ever going on the road.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    i didn't see it that way. He was critical of the saxes and trombone section too. I looked at it like you were seeing the band rehearsal from the viewpoint of the drummer who was obviously the main character.
    I agree it was from the drummer's viewpoint. The bandleader was critical of others but with one exception did not focus his personal ire at them. I don't remember him even saying another character's name except for the drummers and maybe the poor trombone player who got sacked.

    The physical abuse struck me as too much even for jazz musicians. ;-) The language was, uh, colorful and very reminiscent of the drill sergeant in Full Metal Jacket. I don't know how that would go over in music school.

    I think the genesis of this movie came from Buddy Rich. Not only was Neiman's idol BR, but his MO was similar to that of Fletcher's in the movie. Interesting interview with the director:

    Whiplash maestro Damien Chazelle on drumming, directing, and J.K. Simmons · Interview · The A.V. Club

    I understand it's just a movie and Chazelle had a bad experience as well, but I think we would all agree the Simmons character's methods were excessive and in my opinion unnecessary. There are teachers and coaches in all walks of life who nurture brilliant students through positive means. Three of my children participated in award-winning show choir and wind ensembles at their high school. Their bandleaders were some of the most-respected music teachers in the country. They were extremely well-respected by the kids and known to be demanding and very occasionally temperamental but never abusive.

  14. #113

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    I was lucky enough to have played some big band gigs with hank. He was a great writer and great guy. Came up to me after the gig and told me I was one of the few guitarists he worked with who could play freely in his odd time sigs.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Hank Levy wrote a lot of charts in odd time signatures.

    One time, Buddy Rich wanted to play one of Levy's charts, but he couldn't sight read, so he got the drummer that he hired to sight read charts for him to play it, but he couldn't get the right feel for it.

    Then, Buddy tried it after hearing the other drummer play it, and Buddy couldn't get the right feel for it.

    Buddy got disgusted, and crumpled up the chart into a ball and chucked it in the air.

    They gave the crumpled up chart back to Hank, and he kept it posted on the wall of his office cause he got a kick out of the whole situation!

    When I was a kid, the kid band I played with went up to the Quinnipiac Big Band Jazz Competition.

    Hank Levy's Towson State Band was there, and they wiped the floor with us.

    We were still in high school, and we were competing with monster college bands like that- don't ask me why...

    The whole experience of taking a long bus ride, and having to play as soon as you got there, turned me off to ever going on the road.

  15. #114

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    Great story. I was friends with and studied with the late Walt Namuth who was a great player from DC. Walt played with buddy for many years. Walt could read but was not a "by the chart" kind of guy. I heard that when he left, buddy fired a bunch of guitarists who "couldn't read". In truth, they were playing what was written but Walt embellished so much that he didn't know that 90% of what he played wasn't on the charts.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Hank Levy wrote a lot of charts in odd time signatures.

    One time, Buddy Rich wanted to play one of Levy's charts, but he couldn't sight read, so he got the drummer that he hired to sight read charts for him to play it, but he couldn't get the right feel for it.

    Then, Buddy tried it after hearing the other drummer play it, and Buddy couldn't get the right feel for it.

    Buddy got disgusted, and crumpled up the chart into a ball and chucked it in the air.

    They gave the crumpled up chart back to Hank, and he kept it posted on the wall of his office cause he got a kick out of the whole situation!

    When I was a kid, the kid band I played with went up to the Quinnipiac Big Band Jazz Competition.

    Hank Levy's Towson State Band was there, and they wiped the floor with us.

    We were still in high school, and we were competing with monster college bands like that- don't ask me why...

    The whole experience of taking a long bus ride, and having to play as soon as you got there, turned me off to ever going on the road.

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    i didn't see it that way. He was critical of the saxes and trombone section too.
    Oh for sure, from my perspective JK was an equal opportunity offender who spared no one from his wrath.

    I really enjoyed the undercurrent of the well known Charlie Parker story through much of the film. Watch out for that cymbal, or rather chair coming towards your head!

    I'm hooked enough to sit through the Director's commentary on the dvd tonight.

  17. #116

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    agreed 2b!

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Great story. I was friends with and studied with the late Walt Namuth who was a great player from DC.
    I didn't know that Walt had died. I'd always heard that he pretty much spoiled BR as far as guitarists went. Walt played with him for five years, which is hard to imagine given Mr. Rich's reputation as a very difficult person.

    Speaking of Walt, DC, and BR though...I'll always love BR for one thing. Circa the Watergate era, Richard Nixon went with a small SS detachment when BR and his band played at an old DC club called The Cellar Door. In between tunes, BR eyeballed Nixon for a full minute, pulled the mic over, and deadpanned: "Well, look who's here. Where's Oswald when you need him?"

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by dingusmingus
    Probably worth reading before you make that pronouncement.

    The Drum Thing, or, A Brief History of Whiplash, or, "I'm Generalizing Here" - Do The Math

    Ethan Iverson is many things (including the pianist for the Bad Plus), but I wouldn't call him an idiot.
    Thanks for pointing to Ethan Iverson's essay. It's a very impressive and insightful essay not only on the movie, but on the history of jazz drumming and big bands.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    If you're referring to my comments, I never said anyone was a moron. I respect anyone's right to not like the movie but to say that it's not about jazz is just not true. At least from my perspective as someone who went to a jazz conservatory and devoted over 20 years of my life to 4+ hours a day practicing (many days 6+).

    My perspective is that it was a great movie and it represented accurately everything I went through at the university of miami.

    I do think the physical and verbal abuse was *WAY* over the top. But everything else in the movie rang true to me.

    As an aside, the band leaders and instructors at the UofM certainly humiliated plenty of players and brought people to tears.

    So you can say the movie sucked but if you think the movie doesn't represent at least a slice of what it's like to be a music student at a major jazz program (at least when I went to school) I think you're wrong.
    Didn't mean you, Jack. Seems like you're interested in the discussion. Rich's posts are, as always, pretty comically over the top.

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Great story. I was friends with and studied with the late Walt Namuth who was a great player from DC. Walt played with buddy for many years. Walt could read but was not a "by the chart" kind of guy. I heard that when he left, buddy fired a bunch of guitarists who "couldn't read". In truth, they were playing what was written but Walt embellished so much that he didn't know that 90% of what he played wasn't on the charts.
    Hmmm, after reading about Walt, why was my first thought of imagined empathy for a bass player trying to sub for the late great James Jamerson?

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    I agree it was from the drummer's viewpoint. The bandleader was critical of others but with one exception did not focus his personal ire at them. I don't remember him even saying another character's name except for the drummers and maybe the poor trombone player who got sacked.
    Yes, but the look on the faces of other band members implied they too had previously experienced same. They were merely content that JK wasn't going off on them again...this time.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Yes, but the look on the faces of other band members implied they too had previously experienced same. They were merely content that JK wasn't going off on them again...this time.
    In music school that was a common look or feeling, "at least it's not me this time". Everyone over the course of a class would get chewed out at least once even the hot shots. It was good made everyone work hard and be proud of their accomplishments.

  24. #123

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    Just saw it. I give the movie a C+. That's what I got in jazz theory a C+.

  25. #124
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I did feel like the use of anti-gay , racist and even anti-semitic slang was offensive to me. I think they could have scaled back the language and even some of the physical abuse to some degree.
    I'm never completely at ease with such language or behaviour, but in this film I think they were essential to the Simmons character's way of operating (and handled brilliantly). Actually, it wasn't until I found myself laughing at one such instance (Simmons character to Irish-American drummer, as the latter fumbles under the kit for a dropped drumstick: "There's no pot of gold down there") that I recognised the protagonist's (symbolic) ordeal.

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    I'm never completely at ease with such language or behaviour, but in this film I think they were essential to the Simmons character's way of operating (and handled brilliantly). Actually, it wasn't until I found myself laughing at one such instance (Simmons character to Irish-American drummer, as the latter fumbles under the kit for a dropped drumstick: "There's no pot of gold down there") that I recognised the protagonist's (symbolic) ordeal.
    That was the only part of the movie that really bothered me (along with the physical violence). I've had plenty of band directors belittle musicians in the band but he crossed the line and even in the '60s or '70s would have been tossed out long ago. That's why they should have tamed it down. I had plenty of derogatory band directors that humiliated people without calling them f@gs or h@mos and/or slapping them or throwing chairs.