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12-15-2014 05:00 PM
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1. Start early
2. Go to college
3. Practice alot
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Start young.
Lots of ear training.
Lots of Serious listening.
Lots of transcribing.
Find others to play with that challenge you.
Practice minimum three hours a day.
Go to hear live Jazz whenever possible.
Develop all your musical skills arranging and composing teaches a lot that applies to improvisation.
Do it for the love of the music, everything else is a fringe benefit.
Find other creative outlets like art or writing it's all practice of being creative.
Must important have fun doing all of the above it's a life path, not just a gig.
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Having the desire and the determination to being one.
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Make friends with musicologists.
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I skipped #2. I'm just happy to be alive these days.
Originally Posted by Broyale
Last edited by Stevebol; 12-15-2014 at 08:18 PM.
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Haha what would I know? :O)
AFAIK, most of the great players I have spoken to seem to emphasise the importance of fundamentals. Really knowing your materials and not looking for short cuts.
Oh, and don't worry about being 'great.'Last edited by christianm77; 12-15-2014 at 09:41 PM.
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I could offer advice on being a professional jazz musician, which is not in fact the same thing.
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I skipped 1 and 2, unfortunately. Originally Posted by Stevebol
I had this discussion with someone earlier this evening. My friend (who has a bachelors in music), said that college was not necessary for pursuing jazz, which I called bullsh*t on. If college is not necessary for the study of jazz and the potential to make jazz a career, then why do so many musicians go to college for it, then? Nearly every modern jazz artist I read about or hear of through my Pandora stream has some university experience in their bios. Not trying to discourage myself or anyone else who came to jazz non-traditionally, but fact is, to be great these days, you gotta get that piece of paper. Are there any modern greats that went the non-traditional route to success (started late in life, no college)?
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Getting a college diploma won't make you a great player. It provides some qualifications to be a music teacher. Havig said that, though, the old way of being young, joining a band with a bandleader that guides you through your early formation, etc., pretty much ain't happening so college is largely the place to get the knowledge.
The thing I have noticed in reading the bios of great jazz musicians is that (1) they started young (10 or younger), they got hooked on jazz young, and they learned to learn by ear. Great ears are a prerequisite for being a great musician. I don't have great ears.
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I don't know about starting young, Wes started when he was 20 or something like that but he might just be the exception.
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Again amazing ears. Wes started play tenor guitar at nineteen and switched to six string at twenty memorizing Charlie Christian solos and three years later was gigging. So Wes was an except he didn't start younger, but everything about Wes was exceptional. Originally Posted by nick1994
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Higher ed is a mess in many ways but there's no sense in worrying about it. Nowadays it's assumed that if someone can play they can also teach. Someone who manages to become very good on their own will be absorbed by the system quickly. Originally Posted by Broyale
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Hard to top Ritchie Havens. He was a successful street artist and he also played some sitar. He picked up a guitar and was working the next day or something like that. That's who made me want to play guitar. My parents busted me playing along to Charlie Christian a while after that and I was screwed. Originally Posted by docbop
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Originally Posted by Stevebol
Ritchie was great loved his voice, but he played a open tuning and used his thumb to slide around and play chords. Not quite like Wes, but again to grab an instrument and work with it that fast is all ears. I was reading an interview with Kenny Werner great Jazz pianist and book author. He was said he has perfect pitch, but wasn't till later in life did he discover that it was unusual and everybody doesn't have same ability. I think a lot of the great most started young and learned fast have great ears to start with, ability to remember melodies and things they quickly, and the drive and determination to play music.
As for the school thing the great players were already top level musicians when they went to music school, if they go to music school its to polish their playing and make connections to move to the pro ranks. For the most part they already knew what music school was going to teach them it probably filled a few holes in their knowledge, but mainly it was just a place to woodshed till first big gig came their way.
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College won't make you great. If you are already great and go to Berklee, say, and impress the teachers there you will make important contacts and get your career started on an up, which is important as contemporary jazz is largely sold back to the music educational establishment and young aspiring players anyway these days. It's a bit of a small, incestuous world. Originally Posted by Broyale
Plenty of people go to Berklee and don't really go anywhere career wise. They might not be that good, even. They have a streaming system y'know.
That said every jazz musician I know who has gone to Berklee is heavy, so I think you can learn an awful lot at a place of that caliber even if you don't become the next Metheny/Sco/Rosenwinkel etc, which is more than likely.
Stop thinking about success and focus on enjoying music.
FWIW a lot of the younger greats seem to be quite frustrated, pissy people. Playing on such a small, culturally marginal scene probably does that.... No names....
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Yes! It took me forever to finally ask, what makes me happy? Forget all the bitterness and wrong turns. Finally got around to it about 4 months ago so better late than never. Originally Posted by christianm77
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How to be a great jazz musician? Care more about the music than about success, be obsessive, be respectful of the music, the people and the listeners, and accept that this will not be enough. The rest is a crap shoot. Accept this and you'll be happy. That's success.
None of the "successful" people I've known let that be a guiding goal until they found themselves wearing the mantle of success. Many of those I've known who've tried for success have passed up the joy of dues, seeing it as the dirt they didn't want to walk on, and they still find success elusive.
I see success as a possible coincidence of a jazz life, not a consequence of planning.
David
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Me too! It was a wonderful realisation, glad you found your way there... Originally Posted by Stevebol
Another factor I feel is important - don't search for validation or praise and conversely don't dismiss or diss other musicians or take criticism personally. Maybe I should start a thread on 'things you have learned about playing music.' or something?
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Originally Posted by christianm77
People need to realize Berklee and the other schools aren't like before when they were cranking out lots of great players. They did it before because those schools were hard to get into, you had to audition for the school because they only wanted serious students. When I went to GIT in 1980 I had to pass an audition. The school I worked for and attended had an interview and audition. I was looking at some universities and they all had entrance exams to be accepted into performance programs. With the economy today your financial statement is the entrance exam, if you can pay you get in. They have placement test once in so they can group the good student together to keep them challenged.
Also the private schools to attract students with money have started a lot of Rock and Pop and recording programs, so these schools Jazz focus has been diluted. So the atmosphere at the schools is way different now with all these American Idol wannabes whose focus is fame and fortune versus serious Jazz musician. If you're a great player the right school are still good place to make contacts, get to talk with great musician on staff, and get heard by the right people when they need musicians.
Music school can only do so much for you even if you work you ass off and hang with all the right people. The better you are going in, the more you can learn while there. Back in earlier days we would tell student it was to there advantage to go home and spend a year woodshedding then come back and go to music school. You'll save money and learn a lot more doing it that way.
To tweak what one of my favorite improv teachers would yell at students. They ain't no @$%@$ fairy godmother that's going to beat the ^&* out of you with a @$%%# magic wand and poof you sound like Mile Davis, you got to do the work. Music school doesn't at magic wands to come out a good musician you have to do more than the curriculum and take advantage of the opportunities to learn from great musicians on staff and make contacts.
A lesson learned <grin>
Bringing the teacher a bottle of Bushmills to your quarterly playing exam and having a couple drinks only take the edge off, they still grade you hard. The teacher was someone I was in a band with his room mate and hung with out of school, so that's why I decided to have a some fun at the test.
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'But I paid my money! It's your fault I can't play jazz.' Originally Posted by docbop
I seriously hope that this isn't the way some students look at it now....
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What I hear more of now is..... why do I have to take a Jazz class, I only want to shred! Originally Posted by christianm77
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Docbop I know you are pretty knowledgeable but I believe your comment above is perpetuating the myth about Wes starting at the relatively late age of 19. I have read in several places - I believe even in a Wes interview - that he started playing tenor guitar in his early teens, then switched to 6 string later...around 20 as you mention. I could be wrong - it's not like I knew Wes - but I'm pretty darn sure I read it in his own words which makes it quite reliable. Originally Posted by docbop
Which in any event is saying the same thing as: he started playing guitar when he was in his early teens. 4 strings vs. 6 strings is really not that big a deal. I don't know about you guys, but I don't play my low E string much if there is a bass player nearby. And his brother played bass so...
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I saw the previous person post and so I looked at it and that all they said. I did some more digging and kept finding the same info over and over. I just now read another source (non-internet) that says Wes got the tenor guitar from his brother Monk and started playing it around age 12 or 13. That's makes more sense. Originally Posted by coolvinny
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haha. Young people can be tricky. A lot of them ask, is jazz just fast? I say, you're asking me? I don't know is it? Originally Posted by docbop
I have no opinion on whether jazz is just fast. I'm not qualified to answer that.
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