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  1. #101

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    Oops.

    It's more than some of it's parts.

    more than the the sum of it's parts.


    What's the difference?


    Nice save.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by inwalkedbud View Post
    Jazz is a very socially conscious and political art form. I think politics get tied up in jazz for good reason. I do, however, think jazz reaches for a higher place and this seems to have descended into ticky tack Fox/NBC politics. That said ... jazz has always been about struggle and social justice ...
    I challenge this.

    I think it is a mistake. I think this is a case of the genetic fallacy. (The genetic fallacy bases an argument on origin of X rather than its current state.) A handy example of this (-from Wikipedia) is "You're not going to wear a wedding ring, are you? Don't you know that the wedding ring originally signified...." The assumption being that what something meant in ages past must be what it means now. This is a fallacy.

    Further, I challenge the claim that jazz has always been about struggle and social justice. (Well, let's set aside "struggle" as too vague.)

    I think the case of Louis Armstrong is enough to overturn that claim. Louis is among the undisputed giants of jazz's youth. He is an icon. And he took a LOT of crap from young jazz musicians in the '50s and '60s for NOT being political. He was called an "Uncle Tom" time and time again by younger jazz musicians who thought they understood what the music was about in a way he did not. (<<This at least establishes a change in perspective.) Many younger jazz musicians were embarrassed by him and thought "It's A Wonderful World" a travesty. (It always saddens me to read those parts of biographies of Armstrong---they remind me of the saying, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.")

    In short, I think you are wrong about what jazz has "always been."

    Further, even if you were right about how jazz started out, it wouldn't follow that jazz must be about that now.
    Finally, jazz is such an international music, that it makes little sense to speak of its sense of social justice. (Views on this vary in the Caribbean, Australia, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, Canada, Japan, and the US, all places that have produced jazz musicians of note.)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  4. #103

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    Synergy

  5. #104

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    Who Knew??? I thought jazz has always been about . . . music.
    Further, I challenge the claim that jazz has always been about struggle and social justice. (Well, let's set aside "struggle" as too vague.)
    That's because you have studied the notes but not the history of the music.

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Space Pickle View Post
    That's because you have studied the notes but not the history of the music.

    but who cares? it doesn't matter anymore. Nic Payton says so.

  7. #106

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    I have posted a poll about politics (political threads / conversations) here at JGO.

    Please participate.

    Politics Poll: Your Opinion Matters!
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  8. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I challenge this.

    I think it is a mistake. I think this is a case of the genetic fallacy. (The genetic fallacy bases an argument on origin of X rather than its current state.) A handy example of this (-from Wikipedia) is "You're not going to wear a wedding ring, are you? Don't you know that the wedding ring originally signified...." The assumption being that what something meant in ages past must be what it means now.
    It's funny, I would tend to look at this argument and see it the other way. I think that there's been more "meaning" placed on Jazz, now, in light of history, than there was back when the music was created. Sometimes we don't know the context of things and what they will come to symbolize until we are a little past it.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    It's funny, I would tend to look at this argument and see it the other way. I think that there's been more "meaning" placed on Jazz, now, in light of history, than there was back when the music was created. Sometimes we don't know the context of things and what they will come to symbolize until we are a little past it.
    I think you are right about that. And how the current era of jazz history will be seen 50 years from now might surprise those of us who are still around to notice. And 50 years thence, it may be seen yet another way. (The same goes for how the bebop ear may be seen in 50 years, or the Swing Era, for that matter. I don't think the Swing Era is seen now in the same way it was seen in the mid-40s, or the way it was seen in '60s...)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  10. #109

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    I think the case of Louis Armstrong is enough to overturn that claim. Louis is among the undisputed giants of jazz's youth. He is an icon. And he took a LOT of crap from young jazz musicians in the '50s and '60s for NOT being political.
    Louis Armstrong made a conscious choice to steer clear of politics but he was not oblivious to the conditions of African Americans in this country. This link describes one exception to this apolitical stance.

    Louis Armstrong Broke Silence On Civil Rights In 1957 | www.qgazette.com | Queens Gazette

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    Louis Armstrong made a conscious choice to steer clear of politics but he was not oblivious to the conditions of African Americans in this country. This link describes one exception to this apolitical stance.
    I should hope so! (That he was not oblivious, I mean.)

    I'm requesting the following book from the library on Monday:
    Where the Dark and the Light Folks Meet: Race and the Mythology, Politics, and Business of Jazz (Studies in Jazz)

    It's by Randall Sandke. (The title is an allusion to "Basin Street Blues." Basin Street is in New Orleans.)

    From Amazon's listing for the book:

    >>>Where the Dark and the Light Folks Meet tackles a controversial question: Is jazz the product of an insulated African-American environment, shut off from the rest of society by strictures of segregation and discrimination, or is it more properly understood as the juncture of a wide variety of influences under the broader umbrella of American culture? This book does not question that jazz was created and largely driven by African Americans, but rather posits that black culture has been more open to outside influences than most commentators are likely to admit. The majority of jazz writers, past and present, have embraced an exclusionary viewpoint.

    Where the Dark and the Light Folks Meet begins by looking at many of these writers, from the birth of jazz history up to the present day, to see how and why their views have strayed from the historical record. This book challenges many widely held beliefs regarding the history and nature of jazz in an attempt to free jazz of the socio-political baggage that has so encumbered it. The result is a truer appreciation of the music and a greater understanding of the positive influence racial interaction and jazz music have had on each other.<<<


    I look forward to reading that.
    http://www.amazon.com/Where-Dark-Lig...ght+folks+meet
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar View Post
    of all books available you chose this one? at least also get art taylor's tones and notes and the three wishes book to get some sort of historic perspective. the sandke book is just poorly written propaganda with a racial agenda.
    It's not like this is the first book I've read about jazz history. I read all the ones in the library when I was young. I retain a warm spot for Gunther Schuller's work. I've read Hentoff, Williams, Giddins, Gioia, Stearns, Collier, Kirchner, God, I forget as many as I recall. I especially liked Paul Berliner's "Thinking In Jazz." So this isn't my first rodeo.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  13. #112

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    Jazz Foundation-41hjkk6q7xl__sy445_-jpgRead this book in the 50s, still have a copy, anyone here read it? A great introduction to jazz! PS. They have copies on e.bay.....L..

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar View Post
    i prefer blogs like DoTheMath to books these days.
    I read mostly philosophy, theology, and music books. Books about the brain fascinate me too. I read a lot about jazz when I was young but don't read so much anymore. (I have pounds of books on and around my music stand; I'm not talking about sheet music / method books.)

    Living in New Orleans for several years shaped my sense of jazz history too.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by larry graves View Post
    Read this book in the 50s, still have a copy, anyone here read it? A great introduction to jazz! PS. They have copies on e.bay.....L..
    No, I haven't read it. I checked the library catalog online and they don't have it.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola