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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    Man, I wish -- I THOUGHT this was a political free zone. I don't want to hear political bullshit. Or religious bullshit. Everyone has the right to believe what ever it is they want to believe, just don't shove it down my throat. Arguments about welfare states have no place in a jazz guitar forum, as far as what I can see. And it will drive people like me away faster than anything. Not that that matters one iota. I'm just saying.
    If you don't like the heat stay out of kitchen!...When did caring about others become political? You don't have to participate here if it bothers you.....

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  3. #52

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    I apologize for bringing this matter up in the first place. I don't think that I put much judgement on anyone, but someone got very upset and political about it. There's a whole world out there and I'm gonna swim through it and fly through the air. On my bike of course!

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaclaus View Post
    I apologize for bringing this matter up in the first place. I don't think that I put much judgement on anyone, but someone got very upset and political about it. There's a whole world out there and I'm gonna swim through it and fly through the air. On my bike of course!
    I guess I'd be that "someone" you reference? Yeah . . I did get very upset about it. But, you say I got political about . . . after saying that you "don't wish to go all political on you"?? The very core of your unnecessary post is political.

    This is your post below . . . not mine.

    "Such a foundation wouldn't be neccesary in Scandinavia since we have free health care and unemployment insurance. I don't wish to go all political on you, but as a musician it's nice to know that you can get help without going broke.


    Our taxes are also pretty high though (40-60%)"

    It's disingenuous to offer an apology for the discourse created by comments you made, then try to deflect the responsibility for that discourse onto "someone" else.

    Let's just move on from it, shall we?
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  5. #54

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    Those italicized words say Scandanavia has free healthcare and high taxes.

    Hardly inflammatory, man.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Those italicized words say Scandanavia has free healthcare and high taxes.

    Hardly inflammatory, man.
    You seem to have ignored the other italicized words that say . . "Such a foundation wouldn't be necessary in Scandanavia since we have free health care and unemployment insurance"

    If you choose not to be offended by or consider those words as disparaging and critical of our system vs theirs, so be it. You're far more tolerant than I care to be.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  7. #56

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    Nope, saw em. And then he alluded to the price paid is higher taxes.

    try a little tolerance, you go through life a lot less upset.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  8. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    You seem to have ignored the other italicized words that say . . "Such a foundation wouldn't be necessary in Scandanavia since we have free health care and unemployment insurance"

    If you choose not to be offended by or consider those words as disparaging and critical of our system vs theirs, so be it. You're far more tolerant than I care to be.
    I don't get it. I'm not a big government guy, but I don't see any 'you Americans' statement there either.

    Tone of voice is tough to interpret over the web I guess. For whatever reason, he apologized, though I see that it was necessary. (In his original he even threw in a criticism of his system at the end with the qualifier "though".) Just don't see an attack there...

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I don't get it. I'm not a big government guy, but I don't see any 'you Americans' statement there either.

    Tone of voice is tough to interpret over the web I guess. For whatever reason, he apologized, though I see that it was necessary. (In his original he even threw in a criticism of his system at the end with the qualifier "though".) Just don't see an attack there...
    OK. I'll certainly accept you and Jeff not interpretting yaclaus' post as I did . . . if you and Jeff will accept that I interpretted it as I did. He made a statement which I objected to. I addressed that with him and only him. It could have, should have and probably would have ended between he and I. Neither of us asked for anyone else to comment.

    Out of curiousity though, with yaclaus' post immediately following the OP's post which informed the forum of a very worthy and volentary cause . . . exactly how would you interpret the words . . "Such a foundation wouldn't be necessary in Scandanavia since we have free health care and unemployment insurance." Try tacking these words at the end of that sentence . . . . . "and the USA doesn't" . . . and you'll get a better understanding of how I interpretted them and what he was implying.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  10. #59

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    Why does his post need to be jnterpreted.

    He speaks three truths, then offers a caveat. Sometimes words just mean what they say.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  11. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by yaclaus View Post
    Our taxes are also pretty high though (40-60%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    So then, with tax rates at 40-60% . . health care and unimployment insurance isn't free at all, is it? Someone's definitely paying for it . . aren't they?
    I just don't see how these two statements aren't basically saying the same thing. How is stating that this wouldn't be a "problem" in another country because they tax the crap out of people on the front end an attack on the U.S.?

    I don't think that taxing me at 60% is the answer, but I just don't see an attack there. The "liberal" platform in the U.S. looks very conservative to most of the world, and I think it's pretty easy to see things in terms of the kind of arguments that we have in U.S. politics. But those issues just aren't seen the same way elsewhere. It just sounds like you're arguing the "you need to be like us" statement that was never really made.

    You have the right to interpret it anyway you like. I just think you're reading into it a bit much.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-04-2014 at 07:13 PM. Reason: clarity

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Why does his post need to be jnterpreted.

    He speaks three truths, then offers a caveat. Sometimes words just mean what they say.
    And sometime some people look deeper into the underlying intent of the words and see beyond those truths.

    Please try to help me understand why yaclaus felt it necessary to point out that the system in his country provides for non earning or low earning jazz musicians and ours doesn't. How is that at all relavent to the original purpose of this thread, which was to inform people of the foundation and rally support for jazz musicians. Did we really need someone to inform us that the system in his country would make such support unnecessary? Did you somehow not see the implication that his country's approach to such issues is more compassionate than ours? Did you not read the follow up post made by Jonzo questioning why any society would let it's citizens suffer and die due to lack of government provided *free* health care? Your ears may have been closed to those implications . . but mine were not.

    Look man, this has become way too circuitous. Yaclaus and others have said their piece and I've said mine (repeatedly). Why not just leave it at that?
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I just don't see how these two statements aren't basically saying the same thing. How is stating that this wouldn't be a "problem" in another country because they tax the crap out of people on the front end an attack on the U.S.?

    I don't think that taxing me at 60% is the answer, but I just don't see an attack there. The "liberal" platform in the U.S. looks very conservative to most of the world, and I think it's pretty easy to see things in terms of the kind of arguments that we have in U.S. politics. But those issues just aren't seen the same way elsewhere. It just sounds like you're arguing the "you need to be like us" statement that was never really made.

    You have the right to interpret it anyway you like. I just think you're reading into it a bit much.
    Matt . . look deeper into what I objected to. I objected to why he felt it to be at all necessary to make such a statement. Maybe you could help me understand his need, or probably more accurate his desire to do that?

    Further, if you don't see the inaccuracy of his stating that such health care in his country is *free* . . . then I'm not really sure you'll ever understand why or where I found it to be a problem.

    "Hey Matt, welcome to our new restaurant. We'll need you to pay three times the amount posted on the menu for your dinner. . . . so that it's *free* to those who come in here expecting to eat, but haven't done enough to put themselves in a position to afford to pay for what the want and need"
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  14. #63

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    I an not an English native speaker so I shouldn't lecture you on language. Free can also mean "free speech" as opposed to the mundane meaning in "free beer". Like if you buy a subscription for a magazine you have free access to their website. In Denmark you pay taxes and then you have "free health care". So it's not beer free. I suppose you can call it the spotify of health and someone is according to your mindset getting ripped off. Our unemployment rate is under 5%, 18% has a college degree and we have the lowest murder degree, 0.8, almost anywhere in the world. So I like it. Lot's of things I don't like. Same goes for how I feel about the US. Many great things and also a few things not to my liking, you don't see me getting aggressive about it though. That's entirely your right and way of dealing with disagreements and continue to do so. I will not be involved in the future though. Have a nice day everyone.

  15. #64

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    Patrick, you have a right to your opinion, and Yaclaus to his. Europeans do have 'socialized' medicine. Obvious the cost of care comes from somewhere - taxes up front. Here in the US is another system, which is equally onerous. But you are likely uninformed of some of the facts. So here is a a little "truth" about US healthcare. From a doctor with a lot of experience.

    The US healthcare is first and foremost not a "free market" system. Like the European system there is "price fixing" by third parties. The Federal and State Government for the roughly 50% of costs for the "public" sector - Medicaid and Medicare - and the private health insurance sector for the other 50% with "private" insurance through employers or individual policies. Do you know that some of the highest paid CEOs in the country are at the helm of health insurance companies? During the 'debate' about US healthcare system, did you hear a word about reforming Insurance companies and the third part system? NADA! Not one word. But to illustrate, in recent years an infamous CEO for over a decade, the head of UnitedHealthcare, Dr. William McGuire, took home in 2005 and 2006 in total compensation (salary, benefits, and stock option) more $125 in '05 and $126 in '06. That figure is $126,000,000 annually. (Forbes magazine) Just before he was forced to resign in disgrace for the stock backdating options scandal for which he paid the equivalent of a fine - no jail time.

    So healthcare is not exactly free. Are the docs making out? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Primary care private small and even large group practices are literally going bankrupt, as they cannot pass along their increased costs in the price-fixed market. Physician pay is less than 15% of total healthcare budget costs. Most of the care cost is eaten up by hospital care, pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, and administration. Insurance companies often pay out around 80% of your premium dollar in "care". The other 20% goes to 'administration' - insurance employees including Fat Cat execs. At the consumers' and physicians' expense. But not just at the private for-profit insurers and "non-profits" (sic) like BCBS (Wellpoint, Anthem, etc.)

    In my state the Feds and State have paid me less than 50 cents on the dollar received from commercial insurance for my care of Medicaid patients for nearly thirty years I have practiced. In plain English, if I perform the same identical service (time, work, expertise, 'degree of difficulty') for a Medicaid patient and a UHC private insurance patient, government Medicaid (even HMO-managed MA plans administered by UHC among others) pays me 50 cents on the dollar paid for employer based or other private insurance. Unfortunately, I have not bargaining power with the Feds or private insurance companies to cover my annually increasing costs of business. You know, that inflation that the Feds laughingly tell you is less than 2%. And for my largesse and charity in helping to bear the yoke to pull the cart for those disadvantaged poor in our country on the physicians' shoulders to help compensate for the economic injustices in our society, what do I get for my generosity? An enormous pain in the ass from the morons in government at the Federal and State level who do all they can to obstruct and screw up the system.

    In the US the healthcare system, like the financial sector and Wall St., is rigged. And as regards the tax system and government subsidies in the form of tax laws, there are the corporate welfare queens who evade taxes and paying their "fair share" including many IT high tech companies, hedge fund managers earning over a billion dollars (Billion with a B) annually paying a 15% "carried interest" tax on their "earnings", and other 'favored' schemes to defraud the taxpayers to benefit politically connected "campaign contributors" (bribes).

    So how can a system where the markets are not free and indeed are "price-fixed" to the advantage of insurers and hospitals (with their overpaid CEOs and administrators) function for the citizens? Not well. In fact, the coalition of private corporations, health insurers, and Fed/State bureaucrats certainly are doing their best to dumb down primary care (NPs and PAs) and herd physicians into unproven models of hospital employment with an explosion of costs surely to come. And more money to clip board administrators and other "parasites".

    Our US society is based upon such fictions as a "free" market, and notions of "free" health care. But one must look behind the curtain to see how things really work in the Land of Oz.

    I realize that political posts about the reality in which we live are not welcome on forums quaintly celebrating music from seventy years ago. But at least some truth and clarity about resources and the distribution of taxes and profits in the system should be exposed. US citizens are profoundly ignorant of the facts and how their erstwhile "democracy" or more properly oligarchy actually works. So my post here is to 'pull back the curtain' and shine a little light. Supposed to be a good 'disinfectant', but the roaches and vermin are still in charge. This will be my only post on this thread. After all, in the US of Amnesia, the worst enemy of the State is the Truth. Ask Eric Snowden.

    Back to the guitar....
    Last edited by targuit; 08-05-2014 at 04:41 AM.

  16. #65

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    Someone complained about this thread. I had not been following it, so I popped in and 'took it from the top.'

    Now I've read through it. I don't agree with all that has been said here---I don't think anyone could---but I have no problem with the back and forth about what, if any, role government has in certain areas, particularly health care.

    We're all adults and we all know that our members come from several continents and many more countries. Views of government (-or good government) vary within countries and between them. This is no scandal.

    Some members think views contrary to their own should be disallowed. That's contrary to the spirit of the forum.

    It is one thing to interject politics where they don't belong. For example, earlier today several people reported a post in a Bill Frisell comping thread that contained a link to a controversial political article; that post came down quick, and rightly so. But this "Jazz Foundation" thread is about the government's role in providing health care. That is political. Thus no view expressed here can be objected to on the grounds that it is political. They're all political!
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  17. #66

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    This thtead happens to be political and very relevant to both jazz players and fans. Thanks for letting it stay.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  18. #67

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    "I'm afraid we're not in Kansas anymore, Toto!"

  19. #68

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    Thanks targuit! Wow . . that was a long post you made there. Made me feel less guilty about some of my own long posts. lolol

    I'm pretty much aware of almost everything you said in your post, even though I'm not in the medical profession. Having to pay $1,686 per month to Aetna for mine and my wife's mediacl insurance, I'm also aware of just how f****d up the health care system here in the USA is . . as well as how much more f****d up it's becoming as a result of ACA. Also, being a former US Marine and occasionally taking advantage of earned (not free) medical benefits provided by the VA, I'm also aware of just how f****d up the whole VA Admin is.

    However, my objection . . . as I've said repeatedly . . . was to what I perceived to be the inference of . . . "well, if your country wasn't so insensitive and was as compassionate to it's citizens as my country is, maybe jazz musicians wouldn't need such a foundation". That was my take away from yaclaus' comments . . . as well my questioning and objecting to why he felt a need to make such a statement in the first place.

    After reading yaclaus' post made earlier this morning, I'm now wondering if maybe the cynicism I sensed in his posts might not have been there. Who knows.? Maybe I should have politely questioned his posts instead of reacting harshly and defensively to them. Who knows.? That's Monday morning quarter-backing.

    What could have and should have ended with the exchanges of a few clarifying posts between yaclaus and myself, turned into a brawl mostly because of others who were uninvolved in the exchanges piling on. Isn't that how brawls always start? yaclaus seems to be a gentleman . . probably more so than myself. He and I could have probably worked this out between ourselves.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    What could have and should have ended with the exchanges of a few clarifying posts between yaclaus and myself, turned into a brawl mostly because of others who were uninvolved in the exchanges piling on.
    It's a public forum, so we all have to own what we post.
    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 08-05-2014 at 07:42 PM.

  21. #70

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    And that is why you NEVER use your real name!

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    It's a public forum, so we all have to own what we post.
    Yeah . . I guess that's true. I always do own what I post. Sometimes when I post a reply specific to a post, I mistakenly think that only the owner of the post I replied to should be entitled to a response. But that an incorreclty perceived (by me) rule that I too often don't follow as well. So, thanks for the reminder.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  23. #72

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    They should ban all political discourse from this forum. The place would be 1000% better.
    Last edited by Space Pickle; 08-05-2014 at 09:20 PM.

  24. #73

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    What about my first amendment rights?
    What about my LIBERTY!?

  25. #74

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    Yeah, yeah. Your rights are your rights. But it still would be a lot better if we stuck to discussing music. On the other hand it is hard to ignore the huge impact that economics has had on music, and this inevitably leads to political discussion. I'd personally however rather discuss all the ways that you can use a m7#5 arpeggio.....something very cool I discovered today just practicing basics. How 'bout a thread derail!
    Last edited by srlank; 08-06-2014 at 12:31 AM.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Space Pickle View Post
    They should ban all political discourse from this forum. The place would be 1000% better.
    Several people feel that way. And when members introduce politics where they don't belong, such posts are taken down pronto. And for the record, politics don't belong in discussions of playing jazz.

    But some issues are political, such as 'how much music education should their be in the public schools?' or 'should state funding for the arts, particularly jazz, be increased (or decreased)?' or 'is this company charging too much for that guitar?' To ban all discussion of such questions would diminish the forum. Though all of us love to play jazz, we don't play all the time or think only about playing. We wonder about jazz education, the economics of gigging, and so on. So long as those topics are started as such---not dragged into discussions of other things---they are okay, and those who wish to avoid them altogether can easily do so.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonzo View Post
    What about my first amendment rights?
    What about my LIBERTY!?
    This is a joke, I know. I get it. But to be clear, this site is not a branch of the US government (-or any other government, so far as I know.)

    Everyone who freely joined this site agreed to abide by its rules.

    The site can set many limits on speech.

    Spam is the most obvious one. First thing I do most mornings when I log on is to ban a few spammers. This is not violating their rights.

    Or take another example. It is legal in most countries to call someone an a**hole, but that doesn't mean anyone has the right to do that here.

    For a third example, it is legal in most countries with members on this site to discuss politics but that doesn't give anyone here the right to inject political speech (-and 'anti-political' speech may be political too!) where it does not belong.

    For a fourth example, the Internet is full of sexually explicit material but that doesn't make it okay to post here, even if a guitar is involved.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    This is a joke, I know. I get it. But to be clear, this site is not a branch of the US government (-or any other government, so far as I know.)

    Everyone who freely joined this site agreed to abide by its rules.

    The site can set many limits on speech.

    Spam is the most obvious one. First thing I do most mornings when I log on is to ban a few spammers. This is not violating their rights.

    Or take another example. It is legal in most countries to call someone an a**hole, but that doesn't mean anyone has the right to do that here.

    For a third example, it is legal in most countries with members on this site to discuss politics but that doesn't give anyone here the right to inject political speech (-and 'anti-political' speech may be political too!) where it does not belong.

    For a fourth example, the Internet is full of sexually explicit material but that doesn't make it okay to post here, even if a guitar is involved.
    I feel a need to call you out on your fourth example. There have indeed been photos of arch top porn posted here which have resulted in the infamous "erection lasting for more than 4 hours". When I called my doctor, as directed to do so by numerous television commercials in the event of this condition happening . . his advise to me was only to "use it while you got it". My wife vehemently disagreed. But an hour after I finally did run her down after chasing here around the kitchen table, she immediatley encouraged me to spend more time viewing the arch top porn shown here. So, I see no need what so ever to ban all forms of sexually explicit material.
    Last edited by Patrick2; 08-07-2014 at 09:34 AM.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  29. #78

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    "For a fourth example, the Internet is full of sexually explicit material but that doesn't make it okay to post here, even if a guitar is involved. "

    I am tempted to say, "You don't know what you are missing!"

    After all, you have never seen pictures of my guitar....
    Last edited by targuit; 08-07-2014 at 05:15 AM.

  30. #79

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    [QUOTE=targuit;449553]"For a fourth example, the Internet is full of sexually explicit material but that doesn't make it okay to post here, even if a guitar is involved. "

    I am tempted to say, "You don't know what you are missing!"

    After all, you have never seen pictures of my guitar....
    Well, that's no one's fault but your own. Post some damn pictures!!! My wife is constantly proding me to view guitar porn.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Several people feel that way. And when members introduce politics where they don't belong, such posts are taken down pronto. And for the record, politics don't belong in discussions of playing jazz.

    But some issues are political, such as 'how much music education should their be in the public schools?' or 'should state funding for the arts, particularly jazz, be increased (or decreased)?' or 'is this company charging too much for that guitar?' To ban all discussion of such questions would diminish the forum. Though all of us love to play jazz, we don't play all the time or think only about playing. We wonder about jazz education, the economics of gigging, and so on. So long as those topics are started as such---not dragged into discussions of other things---they are okay, and those who wish to avoid them altogether can easily do so.
    Well I have no involvement in the moderation of this website so I guess ultimately my opinion doesn't matter but I participate in a couple other music forums where the quality of discourse is much high and IMO it's because of "no fighting" and "no politics" rules. This place could be great - it's quite an opportunity for beginners to learn from pros, but threads like this drag it down. I've seen a few pros who post here get run out of the site on a rail. Also there have been some straight up offensive threads in the past that have been allowed to flourish which really cheapen the site.

    I'm really glad I didn't read any music education threads, I'm sure that those would have really pissed me off (I'm a public school elementary music teacher).

    If you want to argue politics you should go find a political forum. Or take up posting in the comments section of your favourite newpaper. Or call in to talk radio shows or something.
    Last edited by Space Pickle; 08-07-2014 at 11:20 AM.

  32. #81

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    Wow I didn' realise what I started!

    I don't want to fuel the debate any further but without someone investing their lives into persuits that bring very little finacal rewards (and thereby no security if something goes wrong) there would be no music except pre-fabricated trash, no atrts and literature except readily sellable kitsch. In fact I find it hard to think of any worthwhile thing that would exist!

    These are the very people who enrich our lives in so many ways. And if they get into difficulties through (mostly) no fault of theirs ( old age, illness, Katrina ..) do we just say OK you have no money so just go and die?

    There seems to be something inherently wrong with a society that fails to look after its most creative members. This is not a new thing however. Mozard died very young as a pauper and so did many other artists we now admire. Yet we still continue doing the same.

    I personally would rather pay for 10 beach-bums that don't deserve it than let one deserving artist die. Money in the end is just money and it doesn't buy you happyness. Nor can you take it with you when you die.

  33. #82

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    BTW I live in Ireland and we pay about 55% tax all-in all and thats not counting a lot of other charges that are being introduced and we don't even have anything near the social system you find in sweden!
    We just pay for corrupt politicians and for the bailout of corrupt bankers!

  34. #83

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    Oh and I forgot to say the most importand thing!

    I started this thread because I thought it worthwhile for lovers of music to know about this foundation, especially if they love Jazz. I started a monthly donation and if even 1 person donates because of this thread I will deem it as a sucess.

    I had no intention of this becoming a political discussion but I know see that I almost invited it.

    I love Jazz and for this reason I want to help the people who brought so much enjoyment into my life.

    Maybe someone else thinks like this as well and will support this cause...

  35. #84

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    [QUOTE=fm42;449639 I love Jazz and for this reason I want to help the people who brought so much enjoyment into my life.

    Maybe someone else thinks like this as well and will support this cause...[/QUOTE]

    I commend you for that. I think many here feel that way too and will do the same. My first great love was the public library,which is why I give them one morning a week of my time to do whatever they ask of me. Without the library, I would be lost.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by srlank View Post
    Yeah, yeah. Your rights are your rights. But it still would be a lot better if we stuck to discussing music. On the other hand it is hard to ignore the huge impact that economics has had on music, and this inevitably leads to political discussion. I'd personally however rather discuss all the ways that you can use a m7#5 arpeggio.....something very cool I discovered today just practicing basics. How 'bout a thread derail!
    We do stick mainly to talking music. Only two current threads have a political slant and most members are happily ignoring them both! ;o)

    I could live with a no-politics rule, but I think many would rue its passage. If one cannot talk about the economics of jazz here, where would one go to do it?

    I don't think money is the most important thing in life. I do not think it the proper measure of artistic success or social value. But money matters and jazz musicians need money for food and rent like everyone else does. If nothing else, where else can jazz musicians complain about not getting enough gigs? (That's work, that's economics, that's politics...)

    But again, I could live with a no-politics rule.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Space Pickle View Post
    Well I have no involvement in the moderation of this website so I guess ultimately my opinion doesn't matter but I participate in a couple other music forums where the quality of discourse is much high and IMO it's because of "no fighting" and "no politics" rules. This place could be great - it's quite an opportunity for beginners to learn from pros, but threads like this drag it down. I've seen a few pros who post here get run out of the site on a rail. Also there have been some straight up offensive threads in the past that have been allowed to flourish which really cheapen the site.

    I'm really glad I didn't read any music education threads, I'm sure that those would have really pissed me off (I'm a public school elementary music teacher).

    If you want to argue politics you should go find a political forum. Or take up posting in the comments section of your favourite newpaper. Or call in to talk radio shows or something.
    Space, your opinion matters here. I thank you for expressing it.

    But the opinion of those who like things the way they are and don't want any more rules also matter.

    This forum has fewer rules than some other ones do. That is the way The Powers That Be prefer it. As a moderator, I sometimes wish there were more rules because it would make my job easier. But the site isn't about making the job of moderators easy; it's about being a place where people like to come to talk about jazz guitar. And thousands of people come here daily to do that. (Well, that many come here; not that many post daily.)

    As I said in another post to this thread, I could live with a 'no politics' rule. I prefer to discuss politics elsewhere too. But I think it would be short-sighted to say that this site is no place for talk about the role of music education in public schools or the care of older jazz musicians who are down on their luck.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by fm42 View Post
    Oh and I forgot to say the most importand thing!

    I started this thread because I thought it worthwhile for lovers of music to know about this foundation, especially if they love Jazz. I started a monthly donation and if even 1 person donates because of this thread I will deem it as a sucess.

    I had no intention of this becoming a political discussion but I know see that I almost invited it.

    I love Jazz and for this reason I want to help the people who brought so much enjoyment into my life.

    Maybe someone else thinks like this as well and will support this cause...
    Hey man, You're from Ireland?? What a coincidence! I just today received a book "Jazz Rhythm, by Roger Edison" from a guy in Ireland. Great guy! If you should see him, thell him I greatly appreciate his thoughtfulness and his generosity. I only wish I could get to Ireland to buy him a pint or two. ;-)
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    I just today received a book "Jazz Rhythm, by Roger Edison" from a guy in Ireland.
    I take you mean "Jazz Rhythm Guitar." I have that book and like it. It came up on a recent thread.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by fm42 View Post
    Wow I didn' realise what I started!

    I don't want to fuel the debate any further but without someone investing their lives into persuits that bring very little finacal rewards (and thereby no security if something goes wrong) there would be no music except pre-fabricated trash, no atrts and literature except readily sellable kitsch. In fact I find it hard to think of any worthwhile thing that would exist!

    These are the very people who enrich our lives in so many ways. And if they get into difficulties through (mostly) no fault of theirs ( old age, illness, Katrina ..) do we just say OK you have no money so just go and die?

    There seems to be something inherently wrong with a society that fails to look after its most creative members. This is not a new thing however. Mozard died very young as a pauper and so did many other artists we now admire. Yet we still continue doing the same.

    I personally would rather pay for 10 beach-bums that don't deserve it than let one deserving artist die. Money in the end is just money and it doesn't buy you happyness. Nor can you take it with you when you die.
    Your post on the foundation was well intended and will result in myself and others making contribututions. You bear none of the responsibility for the heated, but controlled debate . . you've nothing to apologize for.

    The vast majority of this whole debate on this thread was intellegent, courteous, informative, thought provocative and in my opinion very on topic. I'm actually hoping that the thread continues on for further discussion. If it starts to get a little out of hand as some of these topics tend to do . . . it always seems to find its way back to civility.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I take you mean "Jazz Rhythm Guitar." I have that book and like it. It came up on a recent thread.
    Yeah, that's the one. The guy who sent it to me wouldn't even let me send him a check to cover the postage. So, now instead of reimbursing him the $10 or $20 it might have cost him to send it to me . . I might have to spend a couple grand flying over to Ireland for a few weeks . . just so I can buy him a pint . . or, many pint's. (don't I wish I could do that!!)
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    I might have to spend a couple grand flying over to Ireland for a few weeks . . just so I can buy him a pint . . or, many pint's. (don't I wish I could do that!!)
    A nice Heritage guitar would do as well...

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by fm42 View Post
    A nice Heritage guitar would do as well...
    While I'm genuinely appreciative of this gentleman's generous efforts to give me the book . . and then get it to me, my appreciation goes just so far. ;-)
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  44. #93

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    Jazz is a very socially conscious and political art form. I think politics get tied up in jazz for good reason. I do, however, think jazz reaches for a higher place and this seems to have descended into ticky tack Fox/NBC politics. That said ... jazz has always been about struggle and social justice ... so I think anyone who would subscribe to that whole makers/takers welfare queen trickle down crap has become very very disconnected with what brought jazz into this world. Jazz was born into a recently emancipated black community that was emerging from the most despicable and morally reprehensible institution in our nation's history and even then their freedom was largely symbolic and they had to fight for every right they gained for decades to come. Jazz is a music of freedom, struggle, togetherness, and compassion so people who post about the actions and circumstances of others on a forum dedicated to this particular music might choose their words carefully.

    My two cents.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by inwalkedbud View Post
    Jazz is a very socially conscious and political art form. I think politics get tied up in jazz for good reason. I do, however, think jazz reaches for a higher place and this seems to have descended into ticky tack Fox/NBC politics. That said ... jazz has always been about struggle and social justice ... so I think anyone who would subscribe to that whole makers/takers welfare queen trickle down crap has become very very disconnected with what brought jazz into this world. Jazz was born into a recently emancipated black community that was emerging from the most despicable and morally reprehensible institution in our nation's history and even then their freedom was largely symbolic and they had to fight for every right they gained for decades to come. Jazz is a music of freedom, struggle, togetherness, and compassion so people who post about the actions and circumstances of others on a forum dedicated to this particular music might choose their words carefully.

    My two cents.
    Who Knew??? I thought jazz has always been about . . . music.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  46. #95

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    Art (music included) is always about more than the some of its parts.

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by inwalkedbud View Post
    Art (music included) is always about more than the some of its parts.
    As I see it, art is more about leaving itself open to the interpretation of each of us, including those who wish to read their own self serving opinions into it. Kinda like going into an art museum and seeing a framed canvas with a hand full of chicken shit thrown upon it and left to dry there. Some will stare into with galezed over eyes and see a sunset. Some will see a mother hugging a child. Some will see the mother of Christ shedding a tear at the foot of his crucifix. Others will just see a canvas full of chicken shit with a frame around it.

    When I see (hear) jazz music . . I choose to see (hear) only the jazz music. If I was a betting man, I'd bet that those black jazz artists recently emmancipated and emerging from the most despicable and morally reprehensible time in our history, were just trying to make music for themselves and others to enjoy. Of course, I wasn't there to ask them why they were cookin' up a musical storm. As such, I will not profess to know for sure . . . as some do.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  48. #97

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    I just said that jazz was born out of oppression, poverty, and marginalization. It was African American music that was generously shared with the rest of the nation and later the world. It's now an American treasure and has become intimately tied to richness of our culture and our struggle for civil rights and equality. Beauty born of poverty. As a student of this particular music I generally try to appreciate the contributions of people in all walks of life rather than making wrong-headed and sweeping generalizations. I think jazz is a music of unity and cooperation and teaches us better than that.

    Again. My two cents. Maybe four at this point. Who knows.

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    As I see it, art is more about leaving itself open to the interpretation of each of us, including those who wish to read their own self serving opinions into it. Kinda like going into an art museum and seeing a framed canvas with a hand full of chicken shit thrown upon it and left to dry there. Some will stare into with galezed over eyes and see a sunset. Some will see a mother hugging a child. Some will see the mother of Christ shedding a tear at the foot of his crucifix. Others will just see a canvas full of chicken shit with a frame around it.
    Truly, one man's art is another person's garbage. And really, who is to say?

    I would like to think there are some things that transcend their substance, like the collection of sounds we call music, when organized in a particular fashion.

    But again, who is to say? And is it borderline arrogance to label one form of music as art and another as trash?

    I have to tell you, I don't know the answer and I just go with the old sayings, "It is what it is" and "To each his own."

    Then there is the old Lamont Sanford line, "That's why you're you, and I'm me, and that's why I love you."
    Last edited by AlsoRan; 08-09-2014 at 03:29 PM.

  50. #99

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    Anyhoo, the fact about the poor state of a healthy jazz community is demonstrated right here in the forum, where we have our "virtual" jazz community, because none of us really have a local jazz "hang" where we can get together and get real face time with others who are interested in it. I know, and play with plenty of good musicians, but hardly any care much about jazz. They may say they like it, but the proof is when their eyes glaze over after talking about it for more than 5 minutes, let alone even consider trying to play it....

    Let's face it, jazz is the ugly redheaded stepchild of the music world. No wonder old cats are sick and broke. The US people/gov't thinks that because Jazz at Lincoln Center has the biggest jazz organization/budget in the world, that jazz has all the support it deserves for such an unpopular artform. So much for the good news...

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by inwalkedbud View Post
    Art (music included) is always about more than the some of its parts.
    Uh, that's the sum of its parts..... (I assume you know this and made a typo. I mention this because some younger members may be unfamiliar with the idea "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.")
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola