Learning Jazz: Go all in or don't go?

[JazzinNY]

I like other styles too much to give them up. Flamenco and classical are in a yin/yang relationship with jazz. One is sharp angles, the other is curves.

So I split my time, probably 75% jazz, and 25% everything else. If this means I'm less of a jazz player than could be, that's okay. I only do this as a hobby anyway.

[mr. beaumont]

Well...that first teacher is an asshole, and the absolute worst kind of "teacher" out there. I don't care who he is, he has no business calling himself a teacher. That comes from a teacher.

But your post doesn't actually doesn't disagree with my premise...I'm not talking about what path we take to jazz, or what we do as a diversion (hell, I'll make my prime income this summer playing country!)

I'm talking about what we study...what we pursue...what we immerse ourselves in. And if you want to play jazz, it's gotta be jazz.

I'm also not talking about those already proficient in jazz...they can pursue anything they want... I'm talking about the jazz learner...the guy who's played in a wedding band for six years and says "enough, I love wes montgomery, I wanna play like wes."

It takes dedication. I've never met any player who's at a level where I want to be who didn't eat sleep and breathe jazz at one time ...or was still doing it.

[ruger9]

Agreed. Inspiration can come from anything. In the end when we find our voice, its a sum of everything we've absorbed.

Mine's gonna have a lot of Jerry Garcia in it

Now see.... can that still be called "jazz"? (I say, yes!)

I think part of the "problem", or maybe "mental block", is identifying "jazz" as a certain thing. I am a blues/rock guy, even metal in the old days. I have listened to, memorized, and LOVED big band swing literally since I was born, thanks to my parents. So, musically, when I "think", I hear swing. Even when I play blues, it swings. It's almost like I think like a horn player, melody-wise, before I ever even picked up a guitar.

So, a baby- weened on big band jazz, grows up, and starts a hair metal band LOL. Well, first gets into "rock and roll" and "blues", then starts a hair metal band...

My ipod has so many different genres it's ridiculous. And, while I go thru phases, I pretty much listen to all of it all the time.... Bob Seger, SRV, Tommy Emmanuel, Iron Maiden, Charlie Christian, Asleep at the Wheel, Jim Campilongo, Johnny Smith, Wayne Hancock.... man I could go on and on and on. I don't "dedicate" myself to one genre, because i CAN'T. I love it ALL. I want to play it ALL.

And I think, that is totally possible.

If I'm playing behind a metal progression, with a distortion sound, my mind hears something different than when I'm playing a blues shuffle with a 6 chord as the I. And I change my style accordingly. Now, I'd like to think I still always sound like me- I'm not trying to be a chameleon who can change his style at the drop of a hat, but.... you play what the song needs. Always. Regardless of genre. And instant improvisation is a HUGE part of that.

To me, I'm not learning "jazz" because I want to play "jazz" (altho I WOULD love to be able to play like Johnny Smith someday).... I'm learning "jazz" simply because it's my next step in learning the instrument, and the art form of music, more deeply... it's simply my next step. I'll learn jazz (or jazz"y") stuff, and play it wherever I want to... certainly works over a blues shuffle, or in an acoustic rag, or in a jump blues tune, etc.

Right now, TODAY- I am specifically learning jazz so I can play in the style of old BB King, T-Bone Walker, Eldon Shamblin/Junior Barnard, all the guys who have played for Wayne Hancock (Dave Biller is one), Ray Benson.... I love listening to "straight jazz", but love listening to EVERYTHING, more.

I'm rambling a bit now, apologies.... I haven't "jumped in with both feet", as I am simultaneously learning how to have a right hand like Tommy Emmanuel (playing with a thumbpick), as well as learning HOW TO INCORPORATE the "jazz stuff" I am learning INTO WHAT I ALREADY PLAY. It's not so much that I care about copying a style (except to learn it), I want to be the best ME guitar player I can be... which will have a little SRV, a little BB King, a little Charlie Christian, a little Richie Sambora, a little Tommy Emmanuel, a little David Grissom, a little Jim Campilongo, a little... a little.... a little.....

In short (too late LOL)... I want to be the best PLAYER I can be, genre be damned. And wherever the instrument, and my inspirations take me, I will go.

GREAT THREAD BTW!!!! AWESOME!!!!!

[mr. beaumont]

If I were to define jazz, it'd be about approach--not product.

In a jazz approach the lead line AND rhythm section are intertwined. They listen, they react. The soloist leads, the rhythm sections job is to respond, at a high level, challenge and interact.

The music swings--figuratively, not literally. Again it's listening...nobody has a role in a vaccuum...playing "right" is dependent on somebody else. Again, listening uber alles.

Jazz musicians also have a sixth sense...they know when things should be played straight, and when they can be embellished. They can anticipate movements, chord changes. A jazz player can hear "ahead."

These are just a few ramblings...process not product...those who judge jazz on product only hold the music back....

[henryrobinett]

I always played jazz. But not everyone agreed with me. I played rock jazz, funk jazz, pop jazz, free jazz, modal, bop, smooth, my original jazz. But it's when you get called to a gig, to play jazz, when you don't know any of the cats, and they call tunes. It's a language that is understood. They expect you to know these tunes. It could be Satin Doll or Mr Magic. Autumn Leaves or Put It Where You Want It. Doesn't take rehearsal or a lot of conversation or direction. There's swing primarily, form, trading 4s or 8s, bossa, etc.

When you can go to a gig with people you don't know. All you have to know is it's a jazz gig and you're fine. That's when you know what jazz is.

[Space Pickle]

I think it's important to set reasonable goals. If you don't have much time to practice/jam/gig you're probably never going to play Giant Steps in 7 at 250. But that doesn't make what you do any less valid.

[randalljazz]

I always played jazz. But not everyone agreed with me. I played rock jazz, funk jazz, pop jazz, free jazz, modal, bop, smooth, my original jazz. But it's when you get called to a gig, to play jazz, when you don't know any of the cats, and they call tunes. It's a language that is understood. They expect you to know these tunes. It could be Satin Doll or Mr Magic. Autumn Leaves or Put It Where You Want It. Doesn't take rehearsal or a lot of conversation or direction. There's swing primarily, form, trading 4s or 8s, bossa, etc.

When you can go to a gig with people you don't know. All you have to know is it's a jazz gig and you're fine. That's when you know what jazz is.

thanks, henry...so are these tunes really "called" in your experience? i remember the 70's (sort of), but nobody up here plays that stuff...

...these about right?

[ruger9]

If I were to define jazz, it'd be about approach--not product.

In a jazz approach the lead line AND rhythm section are intertwined. They listen, they react. The soloist leads, the rhythm sections job is to respond, at a high level, challenge and interact.

The music swings--figuratively, not literally. Again it's listening...nobody has a role in a vaccuum...playing "right" is dependent on somebody else. Again, listening uber alles.

Jazz musicians also have a sixth sense...they know when things should be played straight, and when they can be embellished. They can anticipate movements, chord changes. A jazz player can hear "ahead."

These are just a few ramblings...process not product...those who judge jazz on product only hold the music back....

Everything you just said could be applied to blues. Probably any genre, but especially blues. But then blues and jazz have always been brothers. Everything you just said is what helps make good music "good"- to me - regardless of genre.

Also totally agree on the "process not product" mantra- but then, I feel that way about all genres/styles... that's what I mean when I say "what I play changes, stylistically (my approach), depending on what is required." What's required could be a whole step bend/double stop (not something you generally hear in jazz), or it could be an arpeggio over the "D" shape (not something you hear much of in blues.) The whole idea is, the lead must be coherent with the rhythm. It all, together, must paint a COMPLETE "picture", as if painted by one artist (well, sort of, maybe that's not the best analogy), instead of a "picture" (the lead) being painted over the rhythm "picture", with a different medium.

I read somewhere that improvisation is the heart of jazz. I would not limit it to jazz. (unless you think the approach of improvisation automatically makes it "jazz", I don't). My lifetime goal has always been to be able to play instant improvisation- no "thinking" involved.... no "where do I go next".... just being one with the music, and going instantly where the music takes me (with the lead), with no thought involved, just emotion and connection. I don't want to think "arpeggios here" or "bend there" or "ascending scale lick here"... I just want to do it.

THAT is why I am studying jazz techniques, which may or may not be different than studying jazz, I guess that goes back to the OP. I'm not sitting here playing 6 chord arpeggios over a rock progression, that's not what I mean by applying what I've learned... I am playing jazz tunes (and related: western swing, jump blues) to learn the genre and the techniques. I do want to be able to play "straight jazz", I love it. Listen to it all the time. But more importantly, learning the techniques will take me further down the road to being one with the instrument, and the music.

Like learning a language... beginning the study of Jazz is like going from Spanish II to Spanish III, kind of. Just continuing the education of the instrument itself, and of the music created with the "full language" of the instrument. So while I would say I am "jumping in with both feet" in learning the language, others might say I'm not because I'm not strictly limiting myself only to the "jazz" genre. I would disagree. And I, personally, would find THAT approach (with ANY music genre), limiting. I would probably make you a better JAZZ player, which is great, but you could be missing out on alot of other stuff that would help make you a great PLAYER, period. Don't be afraid to learn anything and everything, don't limit yourself. That's how I see it. It might take me longer to learn "jazz" that way, but since I'm learning a bunch of other stuff too, I'm fine with that. As long as I'm LEARNING.

But then, my goal isn't, and has never been, to be a great JAZZ player. I have always wanted to be a great PLAYER, period, being able to play pretty much whatever I want (within reason- I won't ever be playing the more advanced Malmsteen runs, as that truly would take far more time than I would have to develop those skills.... but if I thought I COULD accomplish it in a reasonable amount of time, I would Why not, I say?

[mr. beaumont]

I would argue the skill set and type of group interplay common in jazz is very uncommon, if non-existent, in blues.

[ruger9]

Exactly what blues are you talking about? As in jazz, there are many types of blues. If you're talking about a 12-bar, I-IV-V blues in A where the lead player stays in A pentatonic minor, then I would agree. If, however, you're talking about Louis Jordan jump blues, while still an awful lot of I-IV-V going on there, there's also ALOT MORE going on there, and alot of jazz elements, including interplay, as well. Is it jazz? Is it blues? I no longer classify such things.

[henryrobinett]

thanks, henry...so are these tunes really "called" in your experience? i remember the 70's (sort of), but nobody up here plays that stuff...

...these about right?

Those tunes are called, in my experience. There are a few groups who play soul jazz, or funk jazz, in addition to standards jazz, who play around town here. They might be black clubs or clubs that cater to a black clientele. Or corporate parties where you want to play something a little more funky. Also What's Going On?, I Can Help It, The Jody Grind, Mercy, Mercy, Mercy, . . .

[fep]

Mercy Mercy Mercy, Put it where you want it, Mr. Magic, What's Going On, Comin' Home Baby, Cantelope Island, Chameleon...

All tunes that are played with the group I play with. Mixed in with the Jazz Standards and Latin tunes.

[henryrobinett]

Exactly. Sometimes I like to do Memphis Underground too. It's almost Born Under a Bad Sign. Put a little distortion on. Cissy Strut.

[Peter C]

I had an interesting conversation the other day with a percussionist with whom I am currently arranging some original bits and pieces, which reflect very diverse influences, both from and before the 20th century. We fleetingly touched upon the subject of arranging some standards but concluded that, given our limited free time, the original material should take priority. I've listened to and (hopefully) incorporated a lot of Jazz of late, but it's never been my intention to become an encyclopaedic Jazzbo, much as that would be extremely cool. In this way, I suppose Jazz is serving me, not vice-versa.

[Lionelsax]

I have known a lot of guitar players, their style was rock and roll or blues and when we wanted to play a jazz standard it was a mess, I couldn't play decent solos on their accompaniment, the guitar was always ringing (volume and tone up) with strong chords and AABA structures used to be ABAA then ABA, nothing was comfortable, the bridge was never at the right place.
On the other hand they were wonderful musicians except for jazz.

[Peter C]

There's a whole load of interesting players outside of Rock'n Roll and "Blues". I'm not sure if they would swing/have swung, though:
Paco de Lucía
Andrés Segovia (def. not)
John McLaughlin (not much)
Julian Bream (a bit?)
Jan Akkerman
Robert Fripp (def. not)
Adrian Belew
Frank Zappa
Steve Howe
John Butler
Tommy Emmanuel
Allan Holdsworth
Joni Mitchell
Wayne Krantz (?)
Steve Hackett