Back Pain From Playing Archtop Guitars

**targuit** · 05-06-2014, 11:02 AM

Question for archtop luthiers if you are out there. This from someone with a history of right shoulder injury.

I note that with larger size guitars that are deeper and with a wider bout back where your right forearm would rest, that I get aggravation of shoulder pain after a period of playing time. How does beveling of the bout, as do some acoustic steel string luthiers, affect tone with an archtop? Would a beveled bout help lower the right shoulder stress without impairing tone?

**jazzrat** · 05-06-2014, 11:43 AM

Sorry for your troubles Jim.
I had a discectomy between C5 and C6 and just this week the adjoining disc is acting up as often happens.
The pain and weakness down my shoulder and arm is frightening. I am committed to avoiding surgery this time.
To that end I just put my semi-hollow up for sale. Non of my guitars are sacred if I can avoid pain and possible surgery.
These days I'm playing my Parker Fly and my jazz friends opinions of my "weird" guitar be danged.

I agree:

I would have absolutely no hesitation in selling it no matter how much I like the musical results that I get from it.

I have loved your archtop tones but quite frankly I had the same reaction to your small body guitar tones.
You sound like you no matter what and that's a very good thing.

**coolvinny** · 05-06-2014, 12:31 PM

I think too much of anything is bad, so best to mix it up between sitting and standing. If I stand too long, my feet do hurt and my back aches a bit in a certain way, but a different way than from sitting. Also, practicing both seated and standing is a form of practice in itself since in playing/gig/jamming situations sometimes you will have to sit and sometimes it makes more sense to stand.

I'm short and I get by on a 16" x 3" archtop...so I don't think archtops are inherently un-ergonomic. Joe Pass was also short.

Strap button placement can make a bit difference, in my opinion. As close to the neck/fretboard as possible leads to a better neck angle than farther from the neck, and a little goes a long way. This wisdom was passed on to me by an experienced player and he was definitely right.

The current science will tell you that movement is what the human body needs. In my experience, this is absolutely true. When I did have back pain years ago it was from not moving enough.

Jim I think most of your sound comes from your right hand technique and that, without a pick and with your light right hand touch, an archtop is less of a factor for you. (yes, I know Joe Pass eventually just used his fingers...)

**Gitfiddler** · 05-06-2014, 03:39 PM

Jim~ Whatever position you are in, your playing is beautiful.

I also admired how relaxed Joe Pass always seemed, standing or sitting. Most of all, he was so relaxed.

Another great player with a history or back issues is Johnny A. Childhood traction and massive adult back pain didn't stop him from playing guitar. Now he performs mostly seated on a stool with one leg perched higher than the other. He plays entire 2 hour sets in that position! He also had Gibson design his signature guitar to be sized between a 175 and Les Paul, all to make it more ergonomic for him to play.

Bottom line is that we all need to find the most comfortable playing position and instrument for our individual bodies.

**Jim Soloway** · 05-07-2014, 07:39 PM

This turned out to be pretty easy decision. After playing a plank again for four days the pain is almost gone.

**jzucker** · 05-07-2014, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Hi Jack

I don't know if you saw that's I picked up a Godin A6 Ultra last week. It's turning out to be a nice find both in the comfort of the playing position and the ability to dial in a surprisingly nice tone by blending a bit of the piezo in with the neck hum bucker. It's not perfect by any means. The frets are much smaller than I like and the neck is thinner than I prefer but after three days I'm encouraged by the possibilities.

I did see that.

Jim, as someone who has had spinal problems for over 10 years I will offer my unsolicited advice.

When I watch you play, you are hunched over your guitar , with your neck craned and twisted towards the fingerboard. I call this the "wounded bird" position. It's very bad for your spine and neck and back.

When I had my injury I began playing standing up. This forced me to be acutely aware of keeping my back and neck straight, not stooping or hunching over the instrument and not twisting my neck and craning it towards the fingerboard.

When I watch you play in your videos, it makes my neck hurt. If I were you, I would revamp the physical approach to the instrument as something isn't right with your posture.

I mean no disrespect....

**Jim Soloway** · 05-07-2014, 08:04 PM

None taken Jack. You're absolutely right and I'm aware of it. With a light weight plank, I've found ways to compensate that seem to work reasonably well or at least well enough for me to play pretty much pain free for long periods. The guitar is close to my body and it pushes me more upright but with an arch top where the playing surface is much further from my body those methods don't work at all and I end up tilted forward really badly. You may be right about revamping my position but that's a long term project and I'm not going to stop playing in the interim so as a start, I really need to at least get back to guitars that are more comfortable for me. The last couple weeks are not something I'm prepared to go through again.

**jzucker** · 05-07-2014, 08:35 PM

it doesn't have to be a long term project. Just start playing standing and stick to it. It's much better for your body unless you have a heavy guitar. An additional benefit is it looks better for live playing IMO and if you're in a band it allows you to direct the band with more emphasis

**jazzrat** · 05-07-2014, 08:39 PM

Jim, was it a Gosling or a Loon you had made for yourself towards the last of Soloway production?
Do you still have it? I assume you still have the blue one.

**Jim Soloway** · 05-07-2014, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by jazzrat

Jim, was it a Gosling or a Loon you had made for yourself towards the last of Soloway production?
Do you still have it? I assume you still have the blue one.

I have the Blue one but I sold that last Gosling. I've been playing a really light weight Godin A6 Ultra since Friday though and the difference is just amazing. Today is my first day without really miserable pain in a few weeks.

**jazzrat** · 05-07-2014, 09:39 PM

Well that's good you have some relief.
I'm guessing the Parker stuff is outside your aesthetic preferences but have you tried
their sold bodies? The neck on the Fly is really thin but the NiteFly has a nice fatter profile and
the same composite wrap and SS frets. Some of the best jazz tone I've had has been my
Parker Fly with a little piezo blended in.

The Godin stuff is promising. For what you can buy them for used, you could
afford to have one re-fretted with fatter frets.

**jzucker** · 05-07-2014, 10:53 PM

some of jim's own guitars would be the best choice IMO...

**jazzrat** · 05-07-2014, 11:08 PM

some of jim's own guitars would be the best choice IMO...

I would agree....he has proven that for sure. It just seemed he was interested in solutions outside
what he had been using.

**Jim Soloway** · 05-07-2014, 11:45 PM

Yeah, 11 years of playing one brand gets a bit boring, even if that brand is mine.

And Jack, I did play standing for years but eventually that got to my left shoulder, even with light weight guitars. I'm now in my 60's. I'm losing strength and there doesn't seem to be much I can do about that. It's been really noticeable over the last year or so.

**jazzbow** · 05-08-2014, 04:51 AM

Just to chip in...

I have ulnar nerve necrosis which leaves me with numbness in my fretting hand little finger.
To try and play without discomfort I discovered that long scale guitars help with finger coordination and upper body position help extend my practice time. I don't gig at present so I cannot comment on that.

Previously a back injury brought me to an osteopath which in turn made me aware of my bio mechanics. The osteopath did the 'stand in front of a mirror' trick and made me aware of my drooping left shoulder and slight curvature of spine-leaning to the left. He showed me some exercises to do with stretching muscles which come in handy for back pain, but the shoulder exercise alleviates the numbness issue and makes me mindful of not over reaching when playing guitar.

I must say Jim your avatar picture of you playing your Solway guitar gives the impression that you are comfortable playing it, very much like the Joe Pass picture previously added in this thread. Just try to wrangle the archtop to the same position!

**Patrick2** · 05-08-2014, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Yeah, 11 years of playing one brand gets a bit boring, even if that brand is mine.

And Jack, I did play standing for years but eventually that got to my left shoulder, even with light weight guitars. I'm now in my 60's. I'm losing strength and there doesn't seem to be much I can do about that. It's been really noticeable over the last year or so.

Is there an underlying medical reason that you're losing strength and unable to do anything about it? As I'm sure you know, strength loss is indeed a natural evolution as we age. But, unless there are medical issues contributing to it, there are things we can do about it. I recognized about 5 years ago that my strength was waning. My travel schedule and business work schedule was gruling and I had no time . . or desire to get back into strength training. When I realized that I was losing strength at an alarmingly fast rate, I got myself back into the gym and dove head long into training with increasing weight resistances. It was amazing at how quickly my strength recovered.

**Jim Soloway** · 05-08-2014, 10:17 AM

Rich, given your obvious and periodically stated distaste for my music, I can't imagine why you bother to listen to any of it. That seems entirely counterproductive to me. I play what I play. You like what you like. Clearly there is little or no overlap between those two, so why waste your time?

**Jim Soloway** · 05-08-2014, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Is there an underlying medical reason that you're losing strength and unable to do anything about it? As I'm sure you know, strength loss is indeed a natural evolution as we age. But, unless there are medical issues contributing to it, there are things we can do about it. I recognized about 5 years ago that my strength was waning. My travel schedule and business work schedule was gruling and I had no time . . or desire to get back into strength training. When I realized that I was losing strength at an alarmingly fast rate, I got myself back into the gym and dove head long into training with increasing weight resistances. It was amazing at how quickly my strength recovered.

I probably should have said that I can't do anything MORE about it. I do both aerobic and strength training every day and have for many years. I just can't do as much any more. At one time I was doing about 300 pushups a day in sets of 100. I now do about 80 to 100 with sets maxing out around 40 to 50. There is a stair case into a canyon in a park across the street from our home that has 200 stairs. I was doing 6 trips up and down for a total of 1200 stairs each direction. I've had to cut that back to 5 trips for a total of 1000. I'm still fairly strong and I'm very fit but I am definitely noticing a change.

**Pat Clare** · 05-08-2014, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

I did see that.

Jim, as someone who has had spinal problems for over 10 years I will offer my unsolicited advice.

When I watch you play, you are hunched over your guitar , with your neck craned and twisted towards the fingerboard. I call this the "wounded bird" position. It's very bad for your spine and neck and back.

When I had my injury I began playing standing up. This forced me to be acutely aware of keeping my back and neck straight, not stooping or hunching over the instrument and not twisting my neck and craning it towards the fingerboard.

When I watch you play in your videos, it makes my neck hurt. If I were you, I would revamp the physical approach to the instrument as something isn't right with your posture.

I mean no disrespect....

I used to play sitting on a stool and after while my lower back started to bother me, so I switched to standing. It took some adjustment, but I now prefer to stand. If I use a heavy guitar my left shoulder can tighten up after a while.

**coolvinny** · 05-08-2014, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I probably should have said that I can't do anything MORE about it. I do both aerobic and strength training every day and have for many years. I just can't do as much any more. At one time I was doing about 300 pushups a day in sets of 100. I now do about 80 to 100 with sets maxing out around 40 to 50. There is a stair case into a canyon in a park across the street from our home that has 200 stairs. I was doing 6 trips up and down for a total of 1200 stairs each direction. I've had to cut that back to 5 trips for a total of 1000. I'm still fairly strong and I'm very fit but I am definitely noticing a change.

All well and good, but not even close to a "strength training" program (AKA resistance training), even at your age. Might be worth a visit to the Karen Magnussen Rec-Centre which is right in your neighbourhood. I think if you buy a membership (which is only about $350/year and includes access to all the Rec-Centres in North Van) they include a complimentary training session.

Nobody is an expert in all fields. I don't know how to build anything...

**boatheelmusic** · 05-09-2014, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Philco

Yeah! Interesting thing is where his forearm touches the body. Puts his hand right over the front pup. Also has the advantage of a raised neck.
Joe had quite a few things worked out.

if only he'd play music instead of Italianate pyrotechnics more often.......

**boatheelmusic** · 05-09-2014, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Richb

"WOUNDED BIRD" ???? where did that come from Jack? But I do like it. It's amusing. "WOUNDED BIRD". It has a "ring" to it. And i agree Jim needs to watch his playing posture, but more importantly, play with some assertive power man. Every single tune is a ballad with no real discernable time. No improvisation to speak of and no time feel. What's up? WOUNDED BIRD syndrome methinks. Kick that sh!t. Actually play. Actually put something out there man. Kick it. Balls. Kick.

Spoken like a "true Bluesman"

**SuperFour00** · 05-10-2014, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by Richb

"WOUNDED BIRD" ???? where did that come from Jack? But I do like it. It's amusing. "WOUNDED BIRD". It has a "ring" to it. And i agree Jim needs to watch his playing posture, but more importantly, play with some assertive power man. Every single tune is a ballad with no real discernable time. No improvisation to speak of and no time feel. What's up? WOUNDED BIRD syndrome methinks. Kick that sh!t. Actually play. Actually put something out there man. Kick it. Balls. Kick.

Tourette Syndrome?