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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Aristotle's case is interesting in this respect because much of his writing was lost for a time. It was Arabic (-Muslim) thinkers whose translations of Aristotle into Latin brought him to the attention of many medieval monks (-and other Christian thinkers) and thereby to moderns in the West. Plato was a far greater influence on early Christians. I don't know how much attention contemporary Muslim philosophers give to Aristotle's work.
    "Islamic Philosophy
    Much of the work which has taken place on Islamic philosophy until quite recently was based upon the idea that it more-or-less came to an end with the death of Averroes (ibn Rushd) in the twelfth century AD, and is interesting chiefly because of its effect upon the development of philosophy and science in medieval Christian Europe. This rather orientalist account of Islamic philosophy is challenged in the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
    Islamic philosophy is treated as an important and living tradition of philosophy. It represents today, as in the past, the philosophical thought of the Islamic community. Although it is true that much of that thought has had an important impact upon intellectual developments outside the Islamic world, it would be wrong to see that as the main contribution of Islamic philosophy.
    Muslims quite naturally seek to understand the nature of reality using the formal procedures of philosophy, and they often wish to see how they can encapsulate that reality using both philosophy and the various bases of religious authority in Islam.
    As one would expect, there is not just one school of thought here, but a very diverse community of thinkers who vary both in their particular Islamic background and in their adherence to particular philosophical approaches. In devoting 56 entries to representing the variety of Islamic philosophy, the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy acknowledges its significance. Muslims will find that a wide range of their coreligionists’ thought is described and discussed here, and they will see the important role that Islamic philosophy has in the development of world philosophy.
    The entries on Islamic philosophy look at the work of individual thinkers and also at topics which relate to law, politics and cultural life in general, so that we find here a treatment of Islamic philosophy in its widest perspective, as both a cause and effect of the life of Islam itself."

    Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy

    all excellent fodder for the concept "evolution" in thought...
    "Beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure, and we are are so awed because it serenely disdains to annihilate us." -- Ranier Maria Rilke

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz View Post
    "Islamic Philosophy
    Much of the work which has taken place on Islamic philosophy until quite recently was based upon the idea that it more-or-less came to an end with the death of Averroes (ibn Rushd) in the twelfth century AD, and is interesting chiefly because of its effect upon the development of philosophy and science in medieval Christian Europe. This rather orientalist account of Islamic philosophy is challenged in the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
    Islamic philosophy is treated as an important and living tradition of philosophy. It represents today, as in the past, the philosophical thought of the Islamic community. Although it is true that much of that thought has had an important impact upon intellectual developments outside the Islamic world, it would be wrong to see that as the main contribution of Islamic philosophy.
    Muslims quite naturally seek to understand the nature of reality using the formal procedures of philosophy, and they often wish to see how they can encapsulate that reality using both philosophy and the various bases of religious authority in Islam.
    As one would expect, there is not just one school of thought here, but a very diverse community of thinkers who vary both in their particular Islamic background and in their adherence to particular philosophical approaches. In devoting 56 entries to representing the variety of Islamic philosophy, the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy acknowledges its significance. Muslims will find that a wide range of their coreligionists’ thought is described and discussed here, and they will see the important role that Islamic philosophy has in the development of world philosophy.
    The entries on Islamic philosophy look at the work of individual thinkers and also at topics which relate to law, politics and cultural life in general, so that we find here a treatment of Islamic philosophy in its widest perspective, as both a cause and effect of the life of Islam itself."

    Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy

    all excellent fodder for the concept "evolution" in thought...

    can you please sum up your point professor? what is the take away?

  4. #53

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    that the world of islamic thought is vast and diverse, unlike the cartoonish depictions in western media (itself nothing new).
    "Beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure, and we are are so awed because it serenely disdains to annihilate us." -- Ranier Maria Rilke

  5. #54

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    cartoons like the planes crashing? the buildings coming down, ordinary middle east citizens celebrating in the streets about it, demonstrators in Central Park holding up signs afterwards that say "Islam will dominate"?

    those were real, not fake.

    maybe some of that vastness is diversity overshadows the rest. maybe you should take that up with the perps, as opposed to the victims.

  6. #55

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    that is representative of islam in the same way that rev. fred phelps or the spanish inquisition is representative of Christianity.

    defense of barbarity would not be my purpose. antipathy between christianity and islam has been around nearly 1400 years, with savagery perpetrated on both sides.
    "Beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure, and we are are so awed because it serenely disdains to annihilate us." -- Ranier Maria Rilke

  7. #56

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    I knew from the start that this thread was gonna turn out to be a bad idea...

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco View Post
    I knew from the start that this thread was gonna turn out to be a bad idea...
    Give it some more time. There's some really great stuff being discussed here. Many, including myself, are undoubtedly learning from it. It'll definitely get contentious attimes, do to the nature of the wording of the OP. But, I've got a feeling cool heads will prevail and it'll get back on track as an interesting, thought provoking and informative thread. Or not. :-)
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  9. #58

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    Patrick's right. Hopefully we can all exhibit the kind of tolerance for each other's opinions that we would hope others might have for ours.........nah, this is the internet, we're doomed.

    I've tried several times to add something to this thread, and backed off every time bar one, when I thought that I'd nailed what I wanted to say and then the PC died on me. This seems to be working, so here goes.

    So, here's my take. Spirituality is to do with that Zen moment when you feel joined to the entire universe and something deep inside your soul/psyche/nature responds. For me, at its best jazz improvisation goes beyond the mechanics of chord-tones and scales, and connects with something that comes from deep inside.

    I meditate, and do yoga, have done tai chi in the past; all of those things I consider spiritual activities because I approach them in a spiritual way. I do the same, to a greater or lesser extent, with jazz improvisation and it becomes an activity that engenders that connection. As will anything from art through architecture to climbing mountains, if you approach it in the right way.

    Religion however.....well, yes it should be the same; its very name tells of that reconnection from the mundane to the eternal. However, I just have issues with dogma and authority. You can have as many people as you like telling you about running a race, you can read books and accounts of how that race is run; but unless and until you run it for yourself, you won't be able to say "So that's what it's all about".

    And I do get quite wound up by people who knock on my door and tell me they want to save my soul, when actually what they really want is for me to join their gang. It's nothing to do with the ancient and eternal mysteries, more about telling me why their invisible friend is better than my (or anyone else's) invisible friend.

    Right, that's got THAT off my chest, and incidentally opened me to all sorts of vitriol from all sorts of posters.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz View Post
    that is representative of islam in the same way that rev. fred phelps or the spanish inquisition is representative of Christianity.

    defense of barbarity would not be my purpose. antipathy between christianity and islam has been around nearly 1400 years, with savagery perpetrated on both sides.

    Don't forget "The Dark Ages".

    This began after most of the Alexandria library books were burnt, so a lot of knowledge was lost.

    "From the 4th to 12th Centuries,all European trade and calculation was made using the clumsy and inefficient Roman numeral system, and with an abacus based on Greek and Roman models.

    During these centuries the Chinese, Indian and Islamic mathematicians had been in the ascendancy, Europe had fallen into the Dark Ages, in which science, mathematics and almost all intellectual endeavour stagnated.

    By the end of the 12th Century, though, Europe, and particularly Italy, was beginning to trade with the East, and Islamic knowledge gradually began to spread to the West."
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  11. #60

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    There is a double standard around here. On the one hand, threads on politics are routinely shut down because some supposedly "offended" people complain in PM's about how politics doesn't belong in a jazz forum. On the other hand, at least one forum member goes out of his way almost every day to inject his tiresome and utterly predictable political opinions into every thread he can, derailing, inflaming, and hijacking discussions. The forum can't have it both ways. If you want to shut down threads on politics, fine. But you also need to do something serious about those members who troll the forum with their political views every single day.
    Favorite Musician: Pythagoras

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by jster View Post
    Favorite Musician: Pythagoras
    Did you know that your fav musician Pythagoras killed Hippasus for stating that √2 is an irrational number, it can't be represented as a ratio of whole numbers. Pythagoras held the belief that everything must be constructed from whole numbers, so blasphemous Hippasus had to be killed.
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  13. #62

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    jster, I just press the ignore button.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden View Post
    Did you know that your fav musician Pythagoras killed Hippasus for stating that √2 is an irrational number, it can't be represented as a ratio of whole numbers. Pythagoras held the belief that everything must be constructed from whole numbers, so blasphemous Hippasus had to be killed.
    No. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. That's an oft-repeated story made up by a couple of guys writing a mere 830 years after the fact.

    Pythagoras was a 6th century BC philosopher. Hippasos was a 5th century philosopher. Hippasos was at most ten years old when Pythagoras died.

    Plato, who is the closest source, says a student of Hippasos' proved the irrationality of root 3 and root 5, from which many assume Hippasos proved it for root 2. Which might be true or might be something he passed on that was already known.

    Hippasos was certainly a Pythagorean. In his time there was a political split in Pythagorean ranks, and Hippasos led a group called the mathematikoi. He might have been formally expelled by the opposing Pythagoreans, but if so it was for showing in public how to draw a dodecahedron (which was considered sacred knowledge). The chances that he was drowned are approximately zero.

    The only reliable information even slightly close to the events are Plato in Theaetetus and Aristotle in Metaphysics.
    Last edited by GaryCorby; 03-27-2014 at 07:53 PM.

  15. #64

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    Do these guys know how to Party or what?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  16. #65

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    The sad thing is, I know this stuff off the top of my head. I write murder mysteries set in ancient Greece. (People actually pay me to write books...google my name if interested.)

    There were some terrific murders back then, but this isn't one of them.

  17. #66

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    So this is what Classics and Philosophy majors do with useless degrees.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzag View Post
    So this is what Classics and Philosophy majors do with useless degrees.
    Zig, I'm cool with it - makes a nice change from the predominance of gear talk. Something I've noticed about many of my favourite artists is that they're interested in big picture stuff when I read their interviews.

    To go a step further, (not in response to your post) I think what's wrong with Western society at the moment is that we're in an ideological/philosophical/spiritual vacuum because all our old systems of thought have served their time and no viable alternatives have emerged in their place (personal opinion!!!). So in such a vacuum all that's left for people to do it seems is gratify themselves such as being consumers and posting selfie's of themselves on facebook. Such an environment isn't good for music - and we've seen a real degradation in recent years of our cultural landscape. To get back on track we need to start talking about this stuff. Yeah... jazzguitar.be solving the problems of the world! lol
    Last edited by 3625; 03-28-2014 at 12:52 AM.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryCorby View Post
    The sad thing is, I know this stuff off the top of my head. I write murder mysteries set in ancient Greece. (People actually pay me to write books...google my name if interested.)

    There were some terrific murders back then, but this isn't one of them.
    You are my new hero.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzag View Post
    So this is what Classics and Philosophy majors do with useless degrees.
    Posted on a jazz guitar site. If my kids ever want to know what "irony" means, I'm going to show them this.
    Still working on it.

  21. #70

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    We're cool 3625... it was all in good fun. I've had my share of classics courses along with 5 years of high school Latin and an art history degree.

    And I agree with your point.

    OTOH:

    Last edited by zigzag; 03-28-2014 at 11:07 PM.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by jster View Post
    There is a double standard around here. On the one hand, threads on politics are routinely shut down because some supposedly "offended" people complain in PM's about how politics doesn't belong in a jazz forum. On the other hand, at least one forum member goes out of his way almost every day to inject his tiresome and utterly predictable political opinions into every thread he can, derailing, inflaming, and hijacking discussions. The forum can't have it both ways. If you want to shut down threads on politics, fine. But you also need to do something serious about those members who troll the forum with their political views every single day.
    Here is one way for something to be done about that: complain to the moderators about specific posts in specific threads.

    Believe me (-or short of that, ask around), many "trolls" have been banished from the realm. Short of them, some people have been reminded that what they think of as inoffensive is deeply troubling to other members and they have changed their behavior in light of that.

    Some people who have much to contribute also have a tendency to go off on one topic or another. For one, it's a brand of guitar, for another, it's an approach to improvisation, or a particular player, and yes, for some, it is a tendency to take political shots in otherwise non-political threads. My sense is that although this may prove tiresome, if it doesn't bother anyone enough to complain about it, it isn't a big deal. (Sometimes moderators are bugged by things that they let go because no one else seems to mind. Not spam or outrageous things, but things on the margin, esp coming from people who have been around and are not trolls but may be 'a bit of a crank' on one topic or another.

    In this very thread, I found the Catholic cartoon offensive; if it had been about an imam or a rabbi, I would have deleted it without hesitation. But as it was Catholic and as I am a Catholic, I didn't want to appear hyper-sensitive; I can take a joke. No one else complained about it that I know of, so it's still there, or was the last time I looked. If someone called me on that and said I should have deleted it, they would have a strong point.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  23. #72

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    Just in a quick response to jster's concerns;

    I find this forum to be anything but reflective of a double standard. I've said here in the past that I find the moderating on this forum to be a perfect balance of protecting decorum and being liberal in its allowing debate beyond the topic of the OP. And why not? What a totally boring place to be, this would become if the only thing allowed in discussion was jazz guitar . . . even though it's The Jazz Guitar Forum. Jazz guitarists are people . . . and people discuss all kinds of shit . . including politics and religion. That adds to the concept of a community within a forum. If such discussions get too far out there and become heated shit storms . . I've seen it either dialed back by those in the discussion . . or I've seen one of the mods step in and take control.

    jster also might have gone on to mention exactly which forum member he was referencing . . . because anyone regularly participating on this site probably has a pretty good idea who that might be. However, most seem tolerant and not really very offended by him. He does get out there a bit at times . . but, he also contributes substance. When he is out there, someone other than a mod usually steps in and scolds him . . . then it's over . . (more often than not . . . . lolol)

    Also, I really don't recall seeing political threads routinely shut down. In fact, I can't recall the last time I've seen a thread locked.?.?

    On a personal note from me to the admin and the mods . . . If it were my call to make, I wouldn't change a thing.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  24. #73

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    Three pages, and I don't think anyone has even attempted to answer the questions from the OP... only to try to understand what they mean.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryCorby View Post
    The sad thing is, I know this stuff off the top of my head. I write murder mysteries set in ancient Greece. (People actually pay me to write books...google my name if interested.)
    Congratulations! I just placed a hold for your "Sacred Games" at the library. As a college freshman, my lit prof suggested I read Mary Renault's "The Praise Singer" (which was then new) to supplement class assignments from Homer. I remember that book all these years later (-an interval which includes many books I've read and long forgotten having read, let alone recalling anything significant from them).
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzag View Post
    Three pages, and I don't think anyone has even attempted to answer the questions from the OP... only to try to understand what they mean.
    I think some people have answered the question. Some say their playing is spiritual, some say their playing is not (or does not seem so to them), while others say jazz is their religion, leaving others to interpret that as they may. Many are unsure how to understand the question---or a given answer---and in that case, saying so seems the right course.

    Spirituality is a broad topic---it's even a broad topic when narrowed to, say, 21st century Roman Catholics in America. It's also one not often taken up here, though enough jazz musicians have talked about their music in spiritual terms for it to be of genuine interest to many members. I for one am glad this thread was started. As with many conversations about big topics among large groups of people widely scattered, it takes time for everyone to find their way to the same page. (By this I don't mean a point where everyone agrees but where most everyone has a good sense of how key words are used and how to understand the main claims.) Not everyone cares about such conversations, but for many, such conversations are part of the joy of being human.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  27. #76

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  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzag View Post
    OTOH:

    That's the beginning of our Western decline right there...

  29. #78

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    Tribeo, thank you! Though I fear if you heard me play guitar you'd be less impressed . (sigh)

    Mark, yes, Mary Renault is brilliant. When people ask me about influences, I usually list her as a major, though our styles are poles apart. If you liked Simonides in The Praise Singer, then you're about to meet his successor, Pindar.

  30. #79

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    Best Forum Ever

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz View Post
    that is representative of islam in the same way that rev. fred phelps or the spanish inquisition is representative of Christianity.

    defense of barbarity would not be my purpose. antipathy between christianity and islam has been around nearly 1400 years, with savagery perpetrated on both sides.

    what is your purpose then?

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    what is your purpose then?
    plain to any who want to understand.
    "Beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure, and we are are so awed because it serenely disdains to annihilate us." -- Ranier Maria Rilke

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3625 View Post
    Zig, I'm cool with it - makes a nice change from the predominance of gear talk. Something I've noticed about many of my favourite artists is that they're interested in big picture stuff when I read their interviews.

    To go a step further, (not in response to your post) I think what's wrong with Western society at the moment is that we're in an ideological/philosophical/spiritual vacuum because all our old systems of thought have served their time and no viable alternatives have emerged in their place (personal opinion!!!). So in such a vacuum all that's left for people to do it seems is gratify themselves such as being consumers and posting selfie's of themselves on facebook. Such an environment isn't good for music - and we've seen a real degradation in recent years of our cultural landscape. To get back on track we need to start talking about this stuff. Yeah... jazzguitar.be solving the problems of the world! lol
    find about what happened in shiraz in 1844
    "Beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure, and we are are so awed because it serenely disdains to annihilate us." -- Ranier Maria Rilke

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz View Post
    find about what happened in shiraz in 1844
    are you one of Dizzy's brethren Randall?

  35. #84

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    Ha! The second coming was in Persia to Islam. No wonder Christians missed it. Guess I'm consigned to hell.

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzag View Post
    Ha! The second coming was in Persia to Islam. No wonder Christians missed it. Guess I'm consigned to hell.
    I just saw the outstanding improvising avant-garde cello player, Okkyung Lee, who is Korean. My friend noted to her her that he lived in a building with mostly Koreans. "Christians or Buddhists"? Ms. Lee inquired. My friend responded that you can tell the difference between the two, as the Buddhists are usually smiling, while the Christian Koreans are scowling. Ms. Lee laughed and recalled the image of her time in Korea of the people wearing the sandwich boards declaring that everyone will burn in hell if they don't repent, yada-yada-yada.

    I'd rather live life with a smile on my face than a scowl, that's for sure.

    By the way, the Lotus Temple in Delhi is one of the coolest things I have seen. It really is beautiful, a magnificent architectural feat. It's got to be one of the most visited buildings in the world, even more than the Eiffel Tower and the Taj Mahal. I think that many Hindus visit it during their own religious holidays.
    Navdeep Singh.

  37. #86

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    I am an atheist and find no real meaning in the word spiritual.

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    By the way, the Lotus Temple in Delhi is one of the coolest things I have seen. It really is beautiful, a magnificent architectural feat. It's got to be one of the most visited buildings in the world, even more than the Eiffel Tower and the Taj Mahal. I think that many Hindus visit it during their own religious holidays.
    I've been to it and it's literally *cool* inside. By the by, it's Baha'i, right?
    Build bridges, not walls.

  39. #88

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    I liked this:

    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny67 View Post
    I am an atheist and find no real meaning in the word spiritual.
    I'm an Atheist, too, although I prefer the term Naturalist (compare to Super-naturalist). Some religions can be considered atheistic (western Buddhism), but that's a topic for another forum.

    As for the word "spiritual", I find too many meanings attached to it, as we see from this thread. As for "real" meaning, I can't say.

    The best we could do here is to press on what people mean my spiritual in this particular case (music) and follow those paths. All I know is, that it is hard to put in words what I feel, but that's cool because music doesn't always need lyrics.
    Build bridges, not walls.

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny67 View Post
    I am an atheist and find no real meaning in the word spiritual.
    To me it is enough to a fractional part of all that is known, knowable, has existed , exists, will exist, and will cease to exist.

    And it is fascinating to contemplate the idea that there is a time and place where time and place have no meaning. The instance right before the universe and time came info existence is not knowable.

    How big is big? How small small? Only children and scientists contemplate these questions to the degree and extent they deserve to be inquired. And both gaze and smile in wonderment.

    If only the lightbulb would go on in such a way with other adults,
    Navdeep Singh.

  42. #91

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    Yes, we're all matter. Matter is the substance that makes up all observable physical objects, that includes you and me, so we're matter too.
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3625 View Post
    are you one of Dizzy's brethren Randall?
    As organized religions go, I find Baha'i's to be the least intrusive when it comes to sharing their beliefs (actually, one of their tenets, I believe). The concept of "Progressive Revelation" also seems to be a pretty good effort of attempting to tie together the major world religions into a timeline that represents an "emerging plan". The persecution of the Ba'b and Ba'ha'u'll'a'h (sorry, can't find the correct character set) seem to be quite well documented; however, in my opinion, persecution for speaking out about one belief while proffering a new and improved belief does not equate to making one a prophet.
    "Talent is a pursued interest; anything that you're willing to practice, you can do." - Bob Ross

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by ah.clem View Post
    I am aware of the multitude of positions one can take regarding this subject; it just happens to be a "hot button" topic for me. Having to threaten to call the police to get proselytizers to leave my porch after politely telling them for weeks that I had no interest in their "Good News", having this same group of people standing in the road outside my house, praying for my "enlightenment" and "spiritual re-birth", having both local NPR feeds totally crushed by low-power FM "Christian Radio" (which the FCC says is completely legal), etc. has got me on a short tether when it comes to discussions of faith and spirituality.
    That radio interference would bother me. When I drive thru the US, NPR is a beacon of sanity amidst the talk radio craziness. And they even play jazz.
    Build bridges, not walls.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by ah.clem View Post
    The concept of "Progressive Revelation" also seems to be a pretty good effort of attempting to tie together the major world religions into a timeline that represents an "emerging plan"...
    I think progressive revelation as it applies to the bible is the way that it should be legitimately interpreted, but it wasn't until recently that it has occurred to me that God is still revealing himself. While biblical interpretation (as with any holy book) will always yield new revelations, there is lots of food for the spirit in every day existence, whether in art or in life.

    And to my atheist brothers, I asked a professor of astrophysics at the university I attended how being an astrophysicist and a scientist affected his belief in a god. He told me that being an astronomist reinforced his belief. And indeed, looking through a 24" reflector telescope reveals a universe imbued with numinosity. Einstein may not have believed in "God" proper, but from what I've read, his views were consistent with those of a Pantheist or Panentheist.
    Last edited by zigzag; 03-30-2014 at 04:50 PM.

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles View Post
    That radio interference would bother me. When I drive thru the US, NPR is a beacon of sanity amidst the talk radio craziness. And they even play jazz.
    sanity? Yes.

    slant? also yes.

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzag View Post
    I think progressive revelation as it applies to the bible is the way that it should be legitimately interpreted..."
    Perhaps I should have typed that as "Progressive Revelation(tm)" as I was referring to the way Baha'i's (in this case, the reference to Dizzy's faith) use the term; I was in no way referring to the bible. You might want to take a few minutes and read about it, as it's an interesting notion. I find it's best to know as much about a subject as I can before making a decision about how I feel about it. It's not always easy or possible, but I do try my best to be fair, critical and reflective before making any decisions. Unless someone's really pissed me off... <chuckle>.
    "Talent is a pursued interest; anything that you're willing to practice, you can do." - Bob Ross

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    slant? also yes.
    I slant, so I'm fine with that.
    Build bridges, not walls.

  49. #98

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    ah.chem, your post and my post are not that different. Strictly speaking, the term "progressive revelation" as it refers to the bible refers to latter books of the bible. My use of the term is more like yours, and yours includes the bible as the biblical prophets are all a part of the "emerging plan."

    As a Christian, I am always questioning my own faith and what I read in the Bible. The more I read, the more I find that is not congruent with how I interpret what Christ said. Leviticus is a bad joke on Israel. Genesis and Paul's First Corinthians are a bad joke on women. I'll stop because I think I've moved beyond the theme of this thread.

  50. #99

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    @Zig - Understood.

    @BigDaddy - best laugh of the week-end, thanks!
    "Talent is a pursued interest; anything that you're willing to practice, you can do." - Bob Ross

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    By the way, the Lotus Temple in Delhi is one of the coolest things I have seen. It really is beautiful, a magnificent architectural feat. It's got to be one of the most visited buildings in the world, even more than the Eiffel Tower and the Taj Mahal. I think that many Hindus visit it during their own religious holidays.
    yes, and Bahá'í temples are constructed with nine sides, symbolizing that people of all faiths (or no faith) are welcome.

    Bahá'í House of Worship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "Beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure, and we are are so awed because it serenely disdains to annihilate us." -- Ranier Maria Rilke