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The whole point is to capture the attention of the audience in a positive way. I'm tempted to say "make the magic happen", because there is an element of that. Now, one of my favorite pianists on YouTube is a guy who goes under the name pianistaitaliano. He is a superb musician who lives in Germany and often plays in restaurants as the "cocktail" background music. Some of his live video clips are marred by the sound of clinking glasses and the murmur of dinner conversation, yet if you listen, you can hear the magic happening. So, if the crowd chatters over this guy's playing, you can be sure they will over ours. Some people will get it and other will not. But if you engage the few true listeners in the crowd, and they feel the chills down their back, that is success.
I have to laugh a bit. A nice CD from around sixteen years ago now Beyond the Missouri Sky by Metheny and Charlie Hayden. Pat sometimes lays down some subtle synth string pads behind his duet with the bassist. I don't recall anyone criticizing him for fudging the music. And he even went on tour recently with his Orgasmatron or whatever that Rube Goldberg contraption is that he created. But, of course, he is one of "the gods"....
Last edited by targuit; 02-21-2014 at 02:55 PM. Reason: Hayden, not Holland
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02-21-2014 12:48 PM
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I see nothing wrong with using a backing track for a solo performance. The way I see it, if any jazz nazis in the audience care that much, they should either be on stage giving me a hand or on their way out the door.
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Yep
metheny did a whole tour with backing tracks
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Not backing tracks ! It's an Actual instrument triggered - played in real time
Originally Posted by fep
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Nav, if folks can't see the difference between the Orchestrion and my Uncle Phil doing guitareoke at Mama Luigi's pizza place, well then...
...oh wait. Most folks can't tell the difference, can they?
I'm still not going tracks. I'd also imagine if you're doing anything actually interesting with a looper your music is probably not for the cocktail crowd either...
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How is messing with a looper different from writing out an intelligent harmony and bass accompaniment to which you can improvise? My answer is the looper is much more limiting compositionally. And last I checked, the looper does not have a pulse and is not "interactive" with the musician - it's the other way around.
Jay
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Yes I saw the show. It's backing tracks directed by computer instructions which were previously played/programmed by Metheny. Most of the backing tracks were created before the tour and stored on and played by the computer software sending instructions to solinoids playing actual instruments. It was just a bunch of midi instructions. Originally Posted by NSJ
The main complaints I've seen here are no interaction between the musicians, and putting musicians out of work. How does that not apply to what Metheny was doing here?
I don't have a problem with it, like I said I went to the show when it came to town. There were some beautiful moments at that show.
But, if you can't see these as being backing tracks... Then what would you call it?Last edited by fep; 02-21-2014 at 03:33 PM.
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I think I could tell the difference between Metheny doing original music with his Orchestrion vs. uncle Phil's guitareoke. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
But that's not what we're discussing in this thread. This is about using backing tracks and it still stands, Metheny was using backing tracks.
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Dookychase, Originally Posted by Dookychase
I appreciate the sharing of this info. I checked out his vids on youtube, and yes this is essentially what I am considering doing.
Thanks!
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Metheny was probably employing far more people than he was putting out of work with that one-time project, in terms of background technical personnel and roadies to lug all that gear. . It seemed to be a very elaborate undertaking requiring lots of input from many people to put that project together. There's not going to be much interaction in a one person show. Regardless of the technology and MIDI involved, it all had to be triggered live. By him, I believe. Originally Posted by fep
My friend is a exceptional singer and uses a looper to harmonize herself live. Even using her voice as a beatbox. Now that is cool. She is a great one woman show.
I tend to view the Metheny show as a highly experimental one-off musical project that attempted to update a 200 year old technology for the 21st century, exceptionally atypical and not remotely reflective of anything else out there.
Since that time, he's gone back to his normal way of doing things and has amassed a kick ass band that beats the PMG I think, maybe even better than his 80-81 period.
Glad you dug it, I would have loved to see it.
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As impressive as Orchestrion is as an album, it’s in the live arena where the project really comes into its own. “I knew going into this I had two big jobs: make a record, do a tour,” says Pat Metheny. “The making the record part of it I knew would be the harder of the two jobs, because there’s no visual element to it. The thing is so visual. I mean when you see it live, it’s just kind of overwhelming, ‘cause there’s all this stuff moving.”Most exciting for Metheny are the improvisational possibilities available to him in performing with his Orchestrion. Rather than simply playing on top of sequenced parts, he is in complete control of the parameters of every instrument via Ableton Live and can switch between, say, having a marimba or a vibraphone shadowing the guitar top lines he improvises on stage.
“Live, I’m able to do a lot of variations on things. I can also start with nothing and build a whole world, using Ableton. It’s a real different environment. I mean, obviously DP is a linear environment. Ableton is a sort of 3D environment, if you’re using velocity. I can have lots of things kind of lying in wait that I only get to by increasing velocity. So there’s a lot of control aspects of the Orchestrionic instruments that I can do live that are really fascinating. The panorama available is everything from the most composed, the most planned-out to absolutely improvised. And sort of every shade in between.”
Still, don’t expect to see Metheny fiddling with a laptop on stage — he absolutely detests seeing them used in a concert setting. “I always feel like, ‘What’s he doing? Sending an email?’” Instead, the guitarist’s main computer controller on stage is the Moog Taurus 3 pedal synthesizer. “The Taurus is a fantastic way to control things. You can really set up a lot of environments and you can do stuff without people even really knowing what you’re doing.”
Playing live with the orchestrion has also helped Metheny overcome a long-established dissatisfaction with recorded sound.
“As much as I love technology,” he points out, “and as much as I’ve been right in there with eight-bit to 16-bit to 24-bit to 44.1 to 192 [kHz] and right on the front lines of all that, music coming out of speakers is fundamentally flawed to me. We all accept speakers. Of course it’s gonna come out of speakers. But I really feel like someday somebody’s gonna invent something that is not a speaker as a way of presenting sound. To me, music coming from singular sources in a room is really not what music sounds like. It’s an interesting reproduction mode and certainly I make records. But in terms of what happens when you’re playing on stage, it’s nothing like that.
“So for me, as much as I love the front end of all this — by that I mean the Sibelius aspect, the Digital Performer aspect, the Ableton Live aspect — I’ve never been crazy about the result. And when you have one thing going into one speaker, that’s sort of OK for me — like a guitar or a bass into an amp. And yet at the same time, to have a whole bunch of things crammed into two speakers, which is what we all do, it’s not that satisfying to me.”
Not trying to start a fight here--in fact, my previous post should have been in the old "sarcasm" font...but the orchestrion is a lot more than a backing track.
And yeah, y'al;l heard "kin" yet? The Unity Group is SERIOUS.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 02-21-2014 at 04:26 PM.
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why isn't it enough to just say, you don't like a looper? you don't like backing tracks? It's not for you.
that's fine, everyone has their preferences.
Not sure there's any need to start insulting people like me, and the people I play for.
see you guys later.
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Originally Posted by NSJ
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Is that directed at me? When did I insult anybody? Originally Posted by markf
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I did not see any insults directed at you. You seem to be overly sensitive on this issue, so your self-imposed time-out is probably a good idea. Originally Posted by markf
(And that's not an insult either...)
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It was really cool. Besides hearing some well composed and performed music, it was fascinating to just stare at the various instruments in action. It all had a mad scientist feel to it. Originally Posted by NSJ
He did do one tune were he played all the instruments on the spot, recording to midi and directing the real instruments as he went. He introduced the tune as a demo of how it worked. He could trigger it all, cymbals, piano, etc. it took a while to build everything before he could start playing guitar along with it.
All of the rest of the tunes, he would just hit foot switches and elaborate composed parts would start playing on various instruments... All with just a simple tap of the foot. This was obviously pre-composed and preplayed. Then on top of that he might loop in more layers and/or play guitar parts live.Last edited by fep; 02-21-2014 at 05:28 PM.
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I said I use a looper and play in a restaurant
then I read
"'I'd also imagine if you're doing anything actually interesting with a looper your music is probably not for the cocktail crowd either…"
I think that is (uncharacteristically for the guy that posted it), insulting. maybe not directed at me, but insulting anyway.
as I said, if you like something do it, if you don't like it, don't do it.
might add, (not comparing myself) jaco used a looper. It's ok to use a looper. some will be better than others with or without a looper. we all do the best we can.
but, maybe you are correct.
I'll go back to my time out.
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It certainly wasn't meant to be insulting, but I guess I see how it could be taken that way...and because of that, I do apologize.
But I also stand by it...i never understood why guitar players are so afraid of space...and often after hearing someone comp through a whole tune and then solo over i think "y'know, they probably got the chops to do both together...why am I listening to them practice.?"
I find stuff like what Bill Frisell and Fripp do with looters fascinating...but I also see it costing me my gig at the local steakhouse.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 02-21-2014 at 10:47 PM.
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Damn good point. Originally Posted by Broyale
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In most musician's union locals, the fee for a single musician is double that of a sideman.
Given my druthers, I'd hire a bass player, so each of us were making scale. It'd be less work and more fun.
Of course, if you're working as a single for single musician money...I know it's a sad reality, but for what some joints want to pay, you'd be better off teaching a couple of students instead.
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I personally can't stand the backing track/ looper format. I guess as a practice aid it might have a place, but to me it's a crutch that shouldn't be hauled out into the public sphere. I know that I am hopelessly anachronistic but I long for a time or space where the folks who want to share their art with the world actually have something developed that doesn't require the electronic "fake out". I'm sure it will piss off more than a few folks on this forum but honestly when I see someone posting a performance that is supported by canned accompaniment, I inevitably lose interest pretty quickly. All that said, I feel pretty strongly that we live in an age of rampant mediocrity, it is celebrated at every turn. If you can make a few buck gigging with accompaniment that only needs to be uploaded or plugged in, who's to complain? The folks you're playing to are probably not that interested in or capable of recognizing real musical ability anyway.
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People love technology, they hate technology. Portrait artists hated the early photographers. Stage actors hated motion pictures. The post office hates email. I'm sure horse breeders hated the automobile, and early musicians thought the jukebox was their enemy. Nobody wants to see their skilled livelihood infringed upon, but there is no stopping technology.
I hope nobody feels insulted when I say that someone with a looper or backing tracks isn't a threat to any real jazz gigs. Given the choice and the budget, I'm sure most of us would use real musicians.
I'm sure Django's great uncle and cousins felt threatened when a guy like this showed up in their neighborhood with the original backing tracks...
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Here's a practical example. My teacher had a long and illustrious career as a working musician, performing in every conceivable context a jazz guitarist and a classical guitarist could play in, from comping with big bands to concertos with symphony orchestras. He was a long time member of the union when there were plentiful places (hotels, supper clubs etc) that had union agreements with the musician's local, as well as the first choice for tons of studio work.
Then the last half of his career, the good paying jazz gigs dried up. He never stopped playing jazz with the proverbial cats, because they all loved playing it. When they played jazz when the club scene more or less collapsed, it was for the love of the music mainly. But for paid work in the last half of his career, it was mostly as a solo guitarist (in his case, solo amplified nylon guitar), and he was the best around. No one had a repertoire as wide or expansive or as deep--always 4 to 5 hours on hand of jazz standards, show tunes, Spanish pieces, Classical numbers, bossa novas, sambas, Latin tunes. There is no way I can imagine him using backing tracks for those solo gigs. It would be like lipstick on a pig, from an artistic point of view.
I mean, here's a simple question: why would a piano player use cheesy backing tracks? They wouldn't. They have the entire orchestra at their disposal.
Part of the problem is not merely commercial but a limitation predicated on artistic issues: the problem more or less lies in the fact we have a hard time conceiving of the guitar as a self-contained polyphonic instrument, so instead we have this odd dichotomy born from the "rock and roll" era where guitar is split between "leads" and "rhythm". Paraphrasing a memorable "Mr. B" quote from a prior, long forgotten thread: "does anyone play lead piano?"
EDIT. I have to say that a friend of mine who is, IMHO, the best flamenco player in the city, and is a full time musician who survives only with paid gigs (restaurants/weddings/events/corporate gigs). He busts his ass trying to find any kind of gig, always charges a professional rate, and has a sophisticated and professional sound set up, top of the line PA. He also incorporates backing tracks. I've never begrudged him using backing tracks, even if I'd personally just prefer him playing solo.Last edited by NSJ; 02-21-2014 at 11:49 PM.
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Have you seen the Orchestrion video? There are two inventions on there where he starts from nothing and builds the tracks in real time, eventually improvising over what he played and then gradually reducing in the outro. There were no prerecorded tracks in those songs. They were composed, arranged and improvised over on the spot in real time. Originally Posted by fep
He has also used pre sequenced tracks, even with the Pat Metheny Group, but there's an awful lot of real time music in Orchestrion.
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Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
See my post quoted below, a couple of posts before yours. I saw the show live, and have watched the videos many times. The thing about the videos of the concerts, I can only find the ones where he built the tunes live from his guitar (like a super elaborate looper). But that was only done for one tune of the show. The rest, much of the backings was pre-programmed and triggered with a tap of his foot. Interesting that he doesn't post those as youtube videos.
It's funny to me that those against backing tracks can't seem to admit Metheny was using backing tracks. I'm not really for backing tracks either, but what Metheny did was spectacular. Still his music sounds better when played with a band, imo.
Perhaps backing tracks are okay if there done really well like what Metheny has done. Maybe people just don't like music that sucks (backing tracks or not).
Originally Posted by fep
Last edited by fep; 02-22-2014 at 10:44 AM.
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