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I think our own Jim Soloway tunes down all six strings relative to c# on the first string - correct me if I'm wrong, Jim. And I've just read this from an interview with dear Jim Hall:
"Part of Hall’s distinction lies in the fact that his guitar is tuned a perfect fourth below the usual guitar tuning. “It gives me a better sound all around,” he said, “especially when I’m trying to blend with reed instruments.”"
I didn't know he did that.
Now, the question is not, "Do you have to be called Jim to tune down", rather, "Who else does it? Is it a widespread practice, and does Jim Hall really tune a fourth lower?Last edited by Rob MacKillop; 12-23-2013 at 07:53 PM.
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12-23-2013 04:20 PM
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Rob,
As for Jim Hall, I think that's a mistake. In his Hal Leonard instruction video (I think it's just called "Jim Hall", and features Steve La Spina, Larry Goldings and Bill Stewart), he does tune his low E-string down to D at some point, to illustrate some comping rhythm, but only to tune it back up again. Apart from that, I cannot recall seeing/hearing Jim Hall do any of that on his recordings. However, he has mentioned in interviews that he would sometimes tune his guitar randomly when practicing, just to force himself to be alert and 'in the moment'. (And that, I think, says a lot about how he approached his instrument and music in general.)
But maybe he's referring to a specific recording in that interview - for instance one of his later orchestral pieces that I'm not aware of (unfortunately, the link you provided didn't work for me)?
Anyway, just heard the youtube clip with Kenny Poole linked elsewhere in this forum, and that was a truly beautiful example of tuning down... Absolutely stunning!
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Link doesn't work.
scouring my brain, but I'm not coming up with a recording of Hall tuned that low...if he did it, it wasn't a common practice for him.
ted Greene was another low tuner. Sounds great for solo guitar.
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I think the link works now.
I can't think of any Jim Hall recording where he is a 4th down either. And why being down a 4th would help him "blend with the reed instruments" is beyond me. I can see Jim reading that interview and saying, "I never said THAT!"
For those who do tune down, do you think in the key you sound in, or are you thinking in standard tuning still? I imagine it could get really confusing when playing with others, and reading. Do you keep a guitar in standard tuning for those situations, and another guitar in the lower tuning for solo items?
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I think in standard tuning and yes, I do keep a guitar in standard pitch, mostly for teaching but really, if you're playing with others all you have to do is transpose when you tell them the key.
Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Last edited by Jim Soloway; 10-03-2021 at 01:18 PM.
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Sure. I'm used to low tunings (and altered tunings) on acoustic flat tops - I'm just hesitating before doing it for jazz.
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It's really not as radical as a lot of people seem to think. I recorded this a couple days ago with a guitar tuned to C#. I think if I didn't tell you, you may not have even realized that it was down tuned.
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Yup, sounds very nice, Jim. Sounds quite loose.
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I have also heard something about Hall tuning down, but I think it referred to his work with the Jimmy Guiffre Trio. I'm not sure if it applies to all his work with Guiffre; it may have been limited to the beautiful Western Suite record.
If this is true it could account for his comment re blending with reed instruments. In addition to sax there is clarinet on the record (there may be other reeds also, can't recall right now.) I can imagine that a baritone tuning would work well with clar.
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I tune down when playing solo or accompanying a singer. I tune either to Eb, D, or sometimes Db depending on how it feels. I use heavier strings on my low tuned guitars.
here is a video I made to explain my thinking etc.
hope this sheds some light.
Tim
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Jim Hall tuned down in the early days with Giuffre and Art Farmer, then discovered light-gauge strings. I'm sure he also used regular tuning during that period for orchestral and reading gigs. And I think he tuned down a third, not a fourth.
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i still want to try the one where you tune the A string down a whole octave. i have a parts caster with strings designed for C tuning. I wonder if that will be a good enough set up or if I should replace all the strings besides A eith lighter guage
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That's what 7-string guitars were designed for. The 7th is normally tuned to a low A by jazz players. I've never really thought about tuning the regular A down an octave, so I have no advice for that.
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cool. Tal farlow did it— it’s like a fake 7 string
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Drop A tuning--yes! Lots of fun.
This is just a standard A string dropped...I might set up a guitar permanently like this some day, would want a heavier string for the A obviously...here you can hear how light my touch has to be to keep it "in tune." But I don't think I'd have to go ridiculously heavy for it to work...
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mr b, should i keep my heavy A and get lighter strings for the rest, or tune my very heavy strings to standard except the A
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So this is just a standard set of strings...I literally dropped the a whole octave!
I would think you could put a low E gauge string in the A spot and do pretty well, might not even have to recut the nut. If I was going to set up a guitar like this permanently, I'd recut the nut, go heavy with the A, but probably still not as heavy as a low A actually is on a 7 string...I'm not sure if the guitar would need to much other adjustment--I'd definitely do it on a solidbody...maybe my Jazzmaster that's getting dusty right now will get the overhaul...
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I would think you might need a truss rod adjustment (because of the decreased tension on the neck), and possibly a re-intonation (because of the truss rod adjustment.) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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It makes me happy that the Telecaster is now completely accepted as a choice for jazz. Back when I came up it was considered a "canoe paddle" by many jazz players, Ted Greene notwithstanding.
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I have a .080 on my 7-string, and it's still pretty loose, looser than I like. Having it loose messes with the intonation, which is flaky enough tuned that low. But if you want to do it, there ain't no law against it.
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I didn’t read anywhere that tuning to D standard is a more practical option than Eb or Db simply cos there are real books and parts written for Bb instruments already, so it’s a no brainier , and easer to transpose on the fly for open sharp keys songs on guitar too.. the Tim Lerch video is extremely interesting and useful.
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Originally Posted by Repotrawler
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And that’s the rub for strings below standard E6 on guitars with standard scale lengths. Intonation gets worse the lower you go because the slightest sideways shift or bend between frets under your finger will cause audible pitch change. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
It’s also a problem for 7 string guitars. The 0.065” 7th in a set of Chrome 7s is the bare minimum for decent intonation, and it’s not great. John Pearse advised me years ago to try an 0.080” 7th, and he was right. I keep a few each of 70s, 72s, 74s, and 80s (plus assorted others) and use the thinnest one that has good intonation on each guitar. It depends on scale length, fret size etc and I play a lot lighter since I went to 7 than I did on 6. And you have to dress the nut slot for the chosen gauge. Using a 7th string bigger than the slot puts lateral pressure on the edges of the slot and will eventually crack the nut at the bottom of the slot and (if much too narrow) break off the outside end of the nut. I use Tusq nuts and will slot one for each string set.
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I decided to tune down to D permanently in 2016. Standard wasn't bassy enough for me. I tried Eb, D, and Db. I settled on D because it was a big enough move to get the fatter tone that I wanted, but it wasn't so much that it sounded like a baritone guitar. It kept it in a sharp key like E so the notes lined up similarly plus the vibe of it is similar. I learned all the notes in my new tuning, thinking about what I play as what pitches they sound at. Wasn't going to indefinitely tell myself I was playing the wrong notes. It relieves about a string gauge of tension. I use 10s on rock guitars and 12s for jazz. My guitars all intonate fine. You don't need super high tension for good intonation. That only becomes an issue if the tension is super low.
Last edited by Clint 55; 10-03-2021 at 04:25 PM.
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Very interesting, I’m thinking of it too, my SG is tuned to D with 12 pure nickel set and my jazz box in Eb also with 12s.
is it necessary to learn all the new notes tho? I’d prefer to think of it as a Bb instrument, so C is still C for us but the sound produced is Bb so you’d transpose up a tone. Alternatively play by numbers as Tim was saying in his video…Last edited by Repotrawler; 10-04-2021 at 03:19 AM.
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