Tuning to 444 Hz to cut through the band better?

[jasaco]

In another thread, the following was posted:

Two other suggestions to help you cut through the band:

- change your tuning from concert A=440 hz to concert A= 444hz - this will add a little bite to your playing and help listeners to hear the guitar

I was a bit taken aback by this suggestion. I've never heard of anyone doing or recommending being deliberately "out of tune" with the rest of the band (except for us pedal steelers but that's because stepping on your pedals will bring the pitch back down to 440).

What do y'all think of this? Anyone else tried it? Under what circumstances, if any, do you think it is advisable vs not-helpful?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I have no idea, but imagine what a pitch shift war would be like if everyone started doing that and kept rising to be on top!

[Sam Sherry]

My main instrument is double bass. The double bass is a manually-operated variable pitch-approximator. Accurate intonation has been my elusive goal for thirty-five years.

Trust me on this, J. Nothing cuts through the mix like precise, perfect intonation.

[John Link]

A friend of mine who's mother played in a high profile symphony orchestra told me that they always tuned the strings slightly sharp. That never made sense to me as the players would compensate with finger positioning.

[TH]

In a symphony orchestra, sometimes the entire orchestra tunes up, in tune with each other. The increased string tension imparts a brighter and louder sound but that's not the same situation. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
Hint, it's a good idea for people to be in tune with one another in any given playing situation.
Play out of tune to cut through? Oh yeah, I see the logic of that now. The next wedding gig I do, I'm going to wear flourescent green spandex pants, an orange floral Hawaiian shirt and dye my hair bright fire engine red. Someone on another thread said that's a good way to deal with getting lost within the ensemble.
I have a function coming up. Tune sharp, dress to impress. Good strategy.
David

[docbop]

Makes no sense to me being out of tune with the others. First thing I do when playing is take my tuner to the piano at the place and see where its at so I can have adjust how I tune my guitars. The piano is the one thing tuned (hopefully) hour(s) before the show and isn't going to be tuned again and all the other instruments are going to tune to it too for same reason.

[princeplanet]

One of my favourite sax players Jackie McLean tuned intentionally sharp, 10 cents or more! Suited his style and "vibe", although verged on irritating when he overdid it... Check out his late 50's - early 60's stuff, Parkeresque for sure, but with a twist!

[RyanM]

Please god no....


Some have a theory that tuning slightly sharp will give the music brighter sound, but the key thing is that everyone is still in tune with each other.

[GodinFan]

I've tuned to A=444 before.

I did it because that what the piano was tuned to! (Gig in Austria.)

[rkwestcoast]

I heard about the idea for tuning the guitar to 444hz at a jazz workshop in the context of guitar playing with a frontline of brass instruments in unison. The guitar lines weren't really coming through (archtop/fender SF TReverb) & perhaps inevitably the amp was being turned up which in turn lead to the drummer and electric bass player also putting their volume up.

There followed a discussion about dynamics and balance and playing together rather then against each other - as to the question as to how to address the problem of the guitar lines getting swamped by the brass pointers included starting the line being played higher or lower or the trying the 444hz solution.

The suggestion wasn't that everyone started changing tuning but that the guitar did to add a slight intonation difference to differentiate the guitar lines.

Maybe this is one for Mythbusters?? - as have not had a chance to try it as am mainly playing in duos at present.

[Jehu]

From Wikipedia:

Pitch inflation[edit source | editbeta]

During historical periods when instrumental music rose in prominence (relative to the voice), there was a continuous tendency for pitch levels to rise. This "pitch inflation" seemed largely a product of instrumentalists' competing with each other, each attempting to produce a brighter, more "brilliant", sound than that of their rivals. (In string instruments, this is not all acoustic illusion: when tuned up, they actually sound objectively brighter because the higher string tension results in larger amplitudes for the harmonics.) This tendency was also prevalent with wind instrument manufacturers, who crafted their instruments to play generally at a higher pitch than those made by the same craftsmen years earlier.^{[citation needed]}
On at least two occasions, pitch inflation had become so severe that reform became needed. At the beginning of the 17th century, Michael Praetorius reported in his encyclopedicSyntagma musicum that pitch levels had become so high that singers were experiencing severe throat strain and lutenists and viol players were complaining of snapped strings. The standard voice ranges he cites show that the pitch level of his time, at least in the part of Germany where he lived, was at least a minor third higher than today's. Solutions to this problem were sporadic and local, but generally involved the establishment of separate standards for voice and organ ("Chorton") and for chamber ensembles ("Kammerton"). Where the two were combined, as for example in a cantata, the singers and instrumentalists might perform from music written in different keys. This system kept pitch inflation at bay for some two centuries.^[3]
The advent of the orchestra as an independent (as opposed to accompanying) ensemble brought pitch inflation to the fore again. The rise in pitch at this time can be seen reflected in tuning forks. An 1815 tuning fork from the Dresden opera house gives A = 423.2 Hz (info),^[2] while one of eleven years later from the same opera house gives A = 435 Hz (info). At La Scala in Milan, the A above middle C rose as high as 451 Hz (info).^[2]

[jasaco]

Fascinating history...

[princeplanet]

I heard about the idea for tuning the guitar to 444hz at a jazz workshop in the context of guitar playing with a frontline of brass instruments in unison. The guitar lines weren't really coming through (archtop/fender SF TReverb) & perhaps inevitably the amp was being turned up which in turn lead to the drummer and electric bass player also putting their volume up.

There followed a discussion about dynamics and balance and playing together rather then against each other - as to the question as to how to address the problem of the guitar lines getting swamped by the brass pointers included starting the line being played higher or lower or the trying the 444hz solution.

The suggestion wasn't that everyone started changing tuning but that the guitar did to add a slight intonation difference to differentiate the guitar lines.

Maybe this is one for Mythbusters?? - as have not had a chance to try it as am mainly playing in duos at present.

I record and mix music for a living and I can tell you that in ensemble playing (horns, strings or even vocals) any variation of up to + / - 8 cents sounds "acceptable", however, when soloing I'd say being slightly sharp is preferable to slightly flat. Interestingly, of all music styles, Jazz seems to tolerate more tuning fluctuations than more static or simpler forms of music.

Hence the ol' saying: "Close enough for Jazz" .....

[cosmic gumbo]

I suppose that's part of the reason why higher tension 25.5 scale guitars cut through better than 24.75 scale, all other factors being equal- pickups, string gauge, etc.

[TH]

Good observation! Or changing string gauge (mass): The amount of energy converted into a system is dependent on the mass, tension, length, frequency. Do the math, each of these factors will have an effect on the balance of energy.
Frequency (f) = 1/2L[T/m]^1/2

Hey, back to the original premise, if you're in a choir, and you sing sharp, does that benefit you? And think about this, the argument is based on standing out as a soloist against a (horn?) section at standard pitch. Hey does that mean when your solo is done you tune back to pitch to comp? Should you be sharp when you're not the soloist? Is it the bridesmade syndrome, where you make yourself look good by making the rest of the group look pale in comparison? Yeah, this makes a LOT of sense.
David

[oldane]

I don't play sharp either. I like being in tune.

That said, at present in classical music, A=442 seems to be dominating. If anything, the tendency is for a further rise in freq. Therefore, chances are that a freshly tuned piano will be tuned to A=442 unless a different tuning has been requested. Many contemporary wind instrument are tuned to play best/easiest at 442 as well.

Clarinets are often sold with two barrels, one for A=440 and one for A=442. Some Dixieland clarinettists proudly manage to find an old clarinet with the "holy grail" (in Dixieland circles) Albert key system from before say 1920 and fix it with new cork at the joints and new key pads. When they show up with it at the next gig, they discover that it's tuned much lower than the present standard - so much lower that they can't compensate neither with a shorter barrel nor with embouchure control.

[Petimar]

Hence the ol' saying: "Close enough for Jazz" .....

[Buster Loaf]

yeah, lee oskar harmonica come tune a bit sharp, for that very reason.

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=TruthHertz;355034]In a symphony orchestra, sometimes the entire orchestra tunes up, in tune with each other. The increased string tension imparts a brighter and louder sound but that's not the same situation. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
Hint, it's a good idea for people to be in tune with one another in any given playing situation.
Play out of tune to cut through? Oh yeah, I see the logic of that now.

The next wedding gig I do, I'm going to wear flourescent green spandex pants, an orange floral Hawaiian shirt and dye my hair bright fire engine red.

Ok . . . we'll need photos of that if we are to believe it. Because, as far as we know .. . . no one other than Hammetone dresses like that.

[teok]

I believe Mike Stern's "chorusy" tone is accomplished by means of a harmonizer putting out signals that are shifted both sharp and flat. I'm not sure how much though. I had on old Echoplex that would do random slight pitch shifting weirdness that sounded pretty cool at times.

[jtizzle]

I've heard the same thing RyanM said. Tuning slightly sharp would produce a brighter/happier mood, while tuning flat would produce a darker sound.

However, keep in mind, the whole orchestra is still in tune with each other.

I've heard the tune sharp thing, I don't do it. I don't have perfect pitch, but my relative pitch is pretty alright. I know it would drive me nuts after 10 seconds.

[Patrick2]

Teok> an Echoplex?? I thought I was the only one here old enought to remember those. Classic rockers are still trying to either find one . . or find something that would replicate that echo. But, it's true what you say . . once that tape started to wear or stretch . . all sorts of crazy sounds started to happen.

Just imagine how people who "claim" to have perfect pitch would go nuts if the guitarist was tuned 1/1000th pitch sharp. Also, people spend crazy amounts of money trying to get their guitars . . which are inherently imperfect to intonation to begin with . . . . to be perfectly in tune with itself. Then someone's gonna try to convince them to alter it so that it's not perfectly in tune with the rest of the instruments?? I don't think so.

All members of the band are either totally in tune with each other, or they're not. A guitar tuned to 444hz will be out of tune with any instrument which is perfectly tuned to 440hz. Some might hear that . . . and others might not. But, you'd probably have some guitarists either fretting softer or harder . . . or using far more ornamentation (quiver) than they normally would to compensate.