Explaining the complexity of jazz/music to non musicians

[jakeguit]

Hello All,

I guess the title states my question. It seems as though non musicians find those studying practicing music just some frivolous art form. I am going to college to study music and my step mom will joke with me and say "so what classes do you even need to take? can you take tambourine class" or I will sit down to practice and my uncle says "want to come out with me" and I'll say "no I really have to practice" and then he'll be like ok, well you have 4 years of practicing ahead of you"

It seems to me like they think music isn't a valid field of study and that nothing goes into the complexity of really learning and mastering it. They think Psychology or business is a better more valid thing to study. Those are valid too but music isn't any easier then those fields it is such a large study in itself. It's frustrating because my family of non musical people all think music is some frivolous thing...my answer to that is usually "my hero's joe pass, wes montgomery, and charlie parker all learned and continued to learn until they die..it is a lifetime study" What else should I say to defend my argument. Obviously they just don't get it...jazz music to them is just a bunch of random atonalness to their crappy ears.

[docbop]

I think all they see is a risky career choices and showing their concern. Unless you hit it big they won't change so only thing you can do is show/remind them of the joy it brings you that they will understand. A couple of the guys I grew up playing music with made it very big and still took their families awhile to understand "you get paid for that????"

[cosmic gumbo]

I think it's a common reaction from people when you choose to study in a field that leads to mostly unemployment. My neighbor's kid wanted to go to school to be an astronaut and another wanted to go study drama and they got the same kind of comments. The clerk at the gas station I go to has a degree in dance...

[randalljazz]

are they paying the freight? if yes, then you owe them the most passionate and logical explanations and exhortations you can conjure, probably repeatedly and frequently. and you will need to respond to skepticism and derision with patience and grace.

if you are paying your own way, the just smile and love them, and get on with your life.

[TH]

One of the benefits of going to a music (art, dance...) school is not needing to explain to those around you. One of the downfalls of graduating is having a lot more to explain. Ha ha!
A friend told me he'd never recommend it as a career choice but if you have to do it, there's nothing else like it. He's 72 and he's still doing it. Dropped out of Yale to play bass. It just happened.
David

[ColinO]

You have asked the wrong question. They will never understand the complexity of jazz music and nor are they required to. The better question to ask is how you can be content with their indifference to something that you are passionate about. Then you will realize that you don't need them to understand music any more than you need to try and understand about all the complex information that your cousin the mechanic has to learn or your nephew the home builder or your aunt the chef.

[Rhoderick]

Yogi Berra Explains Jazz.

Interviewer: "What do expect is in store for the future of jazz guitar?"
Yogi: "I'm thinkin' there'll be a group of guys who've never met talkin' about it all the time...”
Interviewer: Can you explain jazz?
Yogi: I can't, but I will. 90% of jazz is half improvisation. The other half is the part people play while others are playing something they never played with anyone who played that part. So if you play the wrong part, its right. If you play the right part, it might be right if you play it wrong enough. But if you play it too right, it's wrong.
Interviewer: I don't understand.
Yogi: Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it.
Interviewer: Do you understand it?
Yogi: No. That's why I can explain it. If I understood it, I wouldn't know anything about it.
Interviewer: Are there any great jazz players alive today?
Yogi: No. All the great jazz players alive today are dead. Except for the ones that are still alive. But so many of them are dead, that the ones that are still alive are dying to be like the ones that are dead. Some would kill for it.
Interviewer: What is syncopation?
Yogi: That's when the note that you should hear now happens either before or after you hear it. In jazz, you don't hear notes when they happen because that would be some other type of music. Other types of music can be jazz, but only if they're the same as something different from those other kinds.
Interviewer: Now I really don't understand.
Yogi: I haven't taught you enough for you to not understand jazz that well.

Music is the key that can open strange rooms in the house of memory.

Llewelyn Wyn Griffith

[mr. beaumont]

Jake, what are your aspirations? What are you planning on majoring in exactly? Mus ed? Performance?

[pkirk]

It's your life, do what you want with it, or spend the rest of your life regretting it. If you are lucky enough to have someone willing to help you financially, then be grateful, and willing to put up with whatever collateral harassment comes with it.

As for "complexity," I'm not sure this is the right argument to make. I think you should be trying to convince them that it is beautiful, rich, rewarding, intense at times, and will provide you with a lifetime of joy. Parents want to know their children will be happy.

[paynow]

Yogi Berra Explains Jazz.

Interviewer: "What do expect is in store for the future of jazz guitar?"
Yogi: "I'm thinkin' there'll be a group of guys who've never met talkin' about it all the time...”
Interviewer: Can you explain jazz?
Yogi: I can't, but I will. 90% of jazz is half improvisation. The other half is the part people play while others are playing something they never played with anyone who played that part. So if you play the wrong part, its right. If you play the right part, it might be right if you play it wrong enough. But if you play it too right, it's wrong.
Interviewer: I don't understand.
Yogi: Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it.
Interviewer: Do you understand it?
Yogi: No. That's why I can explain it. If I understood it, I wouldn't know anything about it.
Interviewer: Are there any great jazz players alive today?
Yogi: No. All the great jazz players alive today are dead. Except for the ones that are still alive. But so many of them are dead, that the ones that are still alive are dying to be like the ones that are dead. Some would kill for it.
Interviewer: What is syncopation?
Yogi: That's when the note that you should hear now happens either before or after you hear it. In jazz, you don't hear notes when they happen because that would be some other type of music. Other types of music can be jazz, but only if they're the same as something different from those other kinds.
Interviewer: Now I really don't understand.
Yogi: I haven't taught you enough for you to not understand jazz that well.

Music is the key that can open strange rooms in the house of memory.

Llewelyn Wyn Griffith

Awesome. I wish I could play guitar like Berra could play baseball.

To the O.P.: It's tough. And you're young. The older you get, the less it will matter to you what people think. Believe me, they never stop making idiotic comments about things they know nothing about. Don't justify your actions or explain yourself, just persevere.

[Sam Sherry]

OK, I will be The Other Guy.

It seems as though non musicians find those studying practicing music just some frivolous art form.

They are usually correct; most music is frivolous. Most music people hear is about, "What rhymes with hug me?" A whole bunch of jazz music is about, "Look at how good I am!" Those are pretty frivolous messages.

It seems to me like they think . . . that nothing goes into the complexity of really learning and mastering it.

Good artists make something complex out of something simple. Great artists make something simple out of something complex.

...my answer to that is usually "my heroes joe pass, wes montgomery, and charlie parker all learned and continued to learn until they die..it is a lifetime study"

Fair answer about working on music. Is it a good response about going to music school? Where did those guys study? Not, of course, that we are required to walk every step of their path to find our own.

I will sit down to practice and my uncle says "want to come out with me" and I'll say "no I really have to practice" and then he'll be like ok, well you have 4 years of practicing ahead of you"

Jake, man, I know people who would give their left elbow to go out one more time with their uncle.

Punch line: Musical mastery is great (I guess, not being a master myself). A supportive family is priceless. My advice is to accept what they have to offer even if they support you in ways that are different than that which you presently wish for.

OUT

[NSJ]

On an another level, It seems to me that the job of the musician is to hide completely all levels of complexity from the audience. It should be oblivious and irrelevant to outsiders. These are fundamental issues for the practitioner in the shed.

[ah.clem]

Punch line: Musical mastery is great (I guess, not being a master myself). A supportive family is priceless. My advice is to accept what they have to offer even if they support you in ways that are different than that which you presently wish for.

OUT

"A class in tambourine"? Skip practicing? Supportive family? Sorry, sounds like ridicule and douchery to me, the kind of stuff ignorant people say when they think they are being clever, or passive-agressive. I agree that a supportive family is priceless; sounds like he should try to find one, or better yet, spend more time in the practice rooms and less time at home. Just my opinion.

[jtizzle]

To me, your family's comments are the common misconception of talent vs work.

Personally, am a true believer that there is no such thing as talent. There is such thing as biology. People are born with nervous function that is far superior of others. Some people have faster nervous routes that connect to your fingers, allowing you faster movement on your instrument. Then there's people who also have better memory than others, which makes memorizing musical things easier. As far as the ear goes, there's two kinds of people, those with perfect pitch, and those who don't have it. I also believe that perfect pitch can be learned, albeit, it's something that probably happens at a very young age. Relative pitch is something you can develop, however, and gets you close to perfect pitch, maybe even better. The reason I don't consider perfect pitch, for example, as talent, is because I know many people with perfect pitch, many who are just as good, or worst, than people I know who don't have perfect pitch. It's not because they don't have "talent", or their biological factors are worst than others, but because they don't nurture their abilities because of the thought "well, I don't have to work on such thing because I can already hear it."

I think your family thinks that you have "talent", whereas, you know that "talent" is not the only thing that weighs in on your skills as a musician. I don't think it's something you can explain. It's simply part of people being ignorant to what a musician truly has to do to hone their skills. Personally, I just nod, agree, and say "I'm not in the mood to go out." When they're gone, I keep shedding.

[zigzag]

I believe there are people who are simply more creative, who can draw an expressive line, or create a melodic line, or beautifully improvise, with little effort.

The fact that you are continuing your education says a lot about you, regardless of your primary area of study. It says that you are dedicated, responsible, goal oriented, and are able to create an approach to solving problems. That should be enough for relatives and should be a good start with prospective employers.

[Stevebol]

Yogi Berra knows jazz. Yogi is very Zen. If you get it, then you just don't get it.


Bird summed it up very well too. Why did you start playing Bird? Mmm, there was nothing better to do. That's very Zen.

[henryrobinett]

Yogi Berra Explains Jazz.

Interviewer: "What do expect is in store for the future of jazz guitar?"
Yogi: "I'm thinkin' there'll be a group of guys who've never met talkin' about it all the time...”
Interviewer: Can you explain jazz?
Yogi: I can't, but I will. 90% of jazz is half improvisation. The other half is the part people play while others are playing something they never played with anyone who played that part. So if you play the wrong part, its right. If you play the right part, it might be right if you play it wrong enough. But if you play it too right, it's wrong.
Interviewer: I don't understand.
Yogi: Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it.
Interviewer: Do you understand it?
Yogi: No. That's why I can explain it. If I understood it, I wouldn't know anything about it.
Interviewer: Are there any great jazz players alive today?
Yogi: No. All the great jazz players alive today are dead. Except for the ones that are still alive. But so many of them are dead, that the ones that are still alive are dying to be like the ones that are dead. Some would kill for it.
Interviewer: What is syncopation?
Yogi: That's when the note that you should hear now happens either before or after you hear it. In jazz, you don't hear notes when they happen because that would be some other type of music. Other types of music can be jazz, but only if they're the same as something different from those other kinds.
Interviewer: Now I really don't understand.
Yogi: I haven't taught you enough for you to not understand jazz that well.

Music is the key that can open strange rooms in the house of memory.

Llewelyn Wyn Griffith

This is great. Where did this come from?

[henryrobinett]

I found it by googling it. I found it on the AllAboutJazz site.

Yogi Berra Explains Jazz

[oldane]

Two qoutes come to mind:

Old Lady: "Mr. Waller, what is jazz?".
Fats Waller: "Mam, if you haven't found out by now, you never will."

Pretty female interviewer: "Mr. Armstrong, what is jazz?".
Louis Armstrong: "Ha, ha, ha. Tell ya what? It's sex!".