Repetition - does it make music easier to enjoy?

[Vihar]

I have already brought it up in the Allan Holdsworth thread, but I think it's worth to have its own discussion. I find that when a certain kind of music is hard (for me) to digest, it's usually because of the lack of repetition. By that, I don't mean repeated listening of the same piece, but rather some musical patterns to occur repeatedly throughout the same piece.

I think repetition creates a level of familiarity within a song, so no matter how "out there" a line or chord sequence is, if it gets repeated a couple of times, it will result in a more "digestible" and enjoyable listening experience. There's that half joking improvisational advice as well, "if you play a wrong note (or phrase), play it again" or something like that; I think it pretty much describes what I'm trying to put in words; that familiarity can be created through repetition.

I can think of a way to cheat though: using (rather slight) variations can substitute for direct repeats, and they have a very similar effect on the above mentioned familiarity level, without being obvious.

What do you guys think? Do you know any pieces - from any music genre - with little or no repetition that you have personally found enjoyable right away?

Let me show you an (arguably non-jazz) example that I like, one that uses variations instead of obvious repeated patterns:

[Guitarzen]

My own personal experience has been that repetition is an extremely important part of a good improvisation, or even pre-written melody. It's one of the main points I make when I teach people improvisation. There are of course, many other things you can do to enhance your melody creation too. But for sure repetition is one of the more fundmental and important ones.

[Vihar]

I thought so, too. And then comes people like Schoenberg, Holdsworth or part of the avant-garde jazz scene or even raga music, and they operate with very minimal or zero repetition. I find it interesting and curious whether the enjoyment of non-repetitive music is an acquired taste, or comes naturally for some people.

[GuyBoden]

Gary Burton states repeat variations of a theme at least three times, this was during his "Introduction to Jazz Improvisation Course"

[Vihar]

Gary Burton states repeat variations of a theme at least three times, this was during his "Introduction to Jazz Improvisation Course"

That's interesting. So it's not even just twice, but three times. Did he mean that about every motif one stumbles upon during improvisation, or maybe just at the start of a solo?

[Guitarzen]

I think it's important to note that "non-repetition" is also an important tool. I mean as you have said yourself repetition or lack thereof has a certain affect on how we hear music. Therefore, we might want not look at it as a good or bad thing, but simply another tool to use or not to use, depending on the effect you want. I guess you and I tend to prefer the skillful use of repetition. It's probably safe to say that it is a desirable feature for most people. But as an artist, I would want the ability to use it or not use it, depending on the effect that I want to create. Much in the same way we can appreciate that atonality and tonality are just two sides of the same coin and both have their place in music, but most of us prefer not to use atonality or listen to it 100% of the time.

[Vihar]

That's definitely the most balanced, Zen approach to music. I was just curious about what is it that makes most people gravitate towards music styles that contain a rather high amount of repetition (and now that you mentioned it, tonality, as well).

I was thinking, all this urge and effort to try to sound different, unique and original, that makes people reach for devices like non-repetition and atonality often ends up in vain, because the results will no longer be - what I would call - naturally pleasant.

[NSJ]

I hate complexity for the sake of complexity. The fundamental rule of jazz, if there is one, is theme and variation. I just heard Holdsworh blow on a Bruford album on a tune written by Annette Peacock.

It was wonderful, with a simple repetitive line on Mini Moog that set the table very nicely for AH's chainsaw like legato horn like lines .

[jster]

duplicate

[jster]

You have posed a very hard question Vihar. You might want to ask it on a classical music forum. Maybe somebody like Avro Part. I don't know what others would say, but Wayne Shorter's live music these days doesn't have a lot of repetion, at least I can't think of anybody in jazz who has less.

More generally, we can put arts on a spectrum (taking the idea of reptition both temporally and spatially):

Much repetition------------------------------------------------------------Little repetition

Music Architecture Dance Poetry Painting/Sculpture/Photography Film/Prose/Drama

[Vihar]

That's an interesting spectrum jster. It suggests that all art is really One Art, a cohesive whole.

On the flip side of the coin, too much repetition does get tedious, too. So I was thinking, there must be this seemingly unmeasurable golden balance between the two extremes that's probably different for each one of us, and is affected by our mental and physical state as well - so this balance or "tolerance" - must be something that drugs or certain illnesses and disorders can definitely alter.

[Guitarzen]

That's definitely the most balanced, Zen approach to music. I was just curious about what is it that makes most people gravitate towards music styles that contain a rather high amount of repetition (and now that you mentioned it, tonality, as well).

I was thinking, all this urge and effort to try to sound different, unique and original, that makes people reach for devices like non-repetition and atonality often ends up in vain, because the results will no longer be - what I would call - naturally pleasant.

I think that's fairly easy to answer. People are default are creatures of habit, comforted by familiarity, and prefer to stay "in the box" (it's safer in there!). In music this translates to repetition in music (at least at one level). I think it actually goes very deep down to an instinctual level since following a routine has always been a survival mechanism. I believe this is one of the theories we talked about in my cultural anthropology class ...or maybe it was psychology 101. Anyways, there have been studies done on this topic, although maybe not specifically in regards to music, but I think it's easy to see the connection.

[zigzag]

One of my favorite songs is "A Remark You Made" by Weather Report... over 7 minutes with the only repetition a few bars towards the beginning and at the end accented in the bass. A beautiful song. Goes to show if you can sustain a fresh and interesting melody line throughout, you don't need any repetition.

[Vihar]

One of my favorite songs is "A Remark You Made" by Weather Report... over 7 minutes with the only repetition a few bars towards the beginning and at the end accented in the bass. A beautiful song. Goes to show if you can sustain a fresh and interesting melody line throughout, you don't need any repetition.

Awesome, thank you!

[Vihar]

I think that's fairly easy to answer. People are default are creatures of habit, comforted by familiarity, and prefer to stay "in the box" (it's safer in there!). In music this translates to repetition in music (at least at one level). I think it actually goes very deep down to an instinctual level since following a routine has always been a survival mechanism.

You're right. Yet from time to time, people push those boundaries of familiarity to create something original and new. I think the main reason musicians do that is because they want to impress their peers and idols/masters. It feels like an ego thing to me.

[jster]

I gave it some more thought and it occurred to me that music is essentially repetitive because it essentially involves rhythm, and rhythm is essentially repetitive. It is probably repetitive for other reasons, but the 12, or the 123, or the 1234 is the beginning of the musical repetition.

[Vihar]

I gave it some more thought and it occurred to me that music is essentially repetitive because it essentially involves rhythm, and rhythm is essentially repetitive. It is probably repetitive for other reasons, but the 12, or the 123, or the 1234 is the beginning of the musical repetition.

That's a very good point jster, and it occured to me too that most of the time at least the rhythm remains steady. It's not always the case though, even in some ancient music:

[Guitarzen]

You're right. Yet from time to time, people push those boundaries of familiarity to create something original and new. I think the main reason musicians do that is because they want to impress their peers and idols/masters. It feels like an ego thing to me.

It could be. I know I've met artists over the years that were worried more about their ego than anything else. But I think pushing out of the creative boundaries can also be just genuine curiosity and exploration of what's possible. It goes without saying that ego is the driving force of much human "culture" and activity, so we have to recognize that both good and bad things come out of it.

[Sphere]

I thought so, too. And then comes people like Schoenberg, Holdsworth or part of the avant-garde jazz scene or even raga music, and they operate with very minimal or zero repetition. I find it interesting and curious whether the enjoyment of non-repetitive music is an acquired taste, or comes naturally for some people.

There is a LOT of repetition in Indian Classical music. Avant garde jazz improvisers often rely heavily on motive development.
Literal repetition is not necessary for music to be enjoyable - it's possible to create a nice atmosphere without it. It's certainly easier for the listener to follow music if there is some sort of pattern to hold on to. Some forms of music, like minimalism, rely very heavily on repetition, for a specific effect.

[NSJ]

I think a certain amount of repetition is important. But even more essential is the critical use of SILENCE. Silence is what helps make music musical.

[Guitarzen]

I think a certain amount of repetition is important. But even more essential is the critical use of SILENCE. Silence is what helps make music musical.

Couldn't agree more, and John Cage's 4′33″ has got to be the most musical composition I've ever heard!

[newsense]

As a rank amateur musicologist, I believe that much of the "in the moment" enjoyment of music, for the listener, is in appreciating how a proceeding phrase has moved onto the current phrase and anticipating how the current phrase may resolve into the next; the slightly unexpected resolution always providing the biggest kick. To enhance the enjoyment derived in this way, a certain amount of repetition is always useful; it helps embed phrases in the short term memory to provide context to the phrase currently in progress and doubles the impact of phrases resolving in ways that buck the trends set by the repetition.

[Vihar]

I think a certain amount of repetition is important. But even more essential is the critical use of SILENCE. Silence is what helps make music musical.

Yes, ultimately, that's what makes music "breathe".

[Vihar]

Couldn't agree more, and John Cage's 4′33″ has got to be the most musical composition I've ever heard!

I especially liked the beeps.

[Vihar]

As a rank amateur musicologist, I believe that much of the "in the moment" enjoyment of music, for the listener, is in appreciating how a proceeding phrase has moved onto the current phrase and anticipating how the current phrase may resolve into the next; the slightly unexpected resolution always providing the biggest kick. To enhance the enjoyment derived in this way, a certain amount of repetition is always useful; it helps embed phrases in the short term memory to provide context to the phrase currently in progress and doubles the impact of phrases resolving in ways that buck the trends set by the repetition.

Great post! So for that ultimate enjoyment, we have devices like movement, surprise, resolution and repetition. I also find the memory part interesting, because even if a piece has no repetition in itself, repeated listenings will result in a similar stimulation and experience, but with the use of what I would assume is the medium or long term memory.