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I have to be honest in that overdrive through an archtop doesn't sound as good to me.
That's the reason why solid bodies dominate styles where overdrive is more prevalent. Perhaps that is why it's not common in Jazz - it's hard to beat the trademark jazzy clean sounds of an archtop.
Still... I would say when it's your turn to take a solo, put the ol' L-5 down and pick up your Tele or something.
My point is ultimately when it comes to solos overdrive is more expressive than cleans.
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04-03-2013 04:23 AM
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I believe in the olden days Robben Ford played a Gibson ES-175 with overdrive and it sounded killer. But I tend to agree with you. You have to put posts in or do something to stop the feedback. I used to do it with an old Epihone Broadway.
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No one has mentioned playing into overdrive dynamically for effect, so I'd like to throw that into the discussion.
I like to play with some variation as regards the soft to loud continuum, and I dislike any overdrive (be it amp of FX pedal) that puts a choke on that range.
What I do like is a sound that either equals the natural dynamic range, or even exceeds it. Play soft and it's warm and clean, play hard and its grungy with plenty of sustain. Play chords and the 3rds and 7ths sound "good". What's good? Well, that's different for everybody, but surely most agree that real valve saturation / distortion is more pleasing to our ears (accentuating even overtones etc) than non-valve circuits when chords get beyond basic 5ths.
This is the reason I'd always prefer a valve pedal into a non valve amp as opposed to the other way around, although valve pedal to valve amp is my fave choice if the combo is just right- being mindful that too many valves in the chain can turn to mush...
There are some late era live boppish Django electric recordings that are as exciting as hell, even down to the natural slapback picked up in the auditorium.
It demonstrates what I'm trying to say here (in spades), it's almost a Rockabilly tone! But sweet and clean when he wants it to be.
Nearly all modern Jazz or fusion guitar players using overdrive don't have this range, the overdrive evens out their dynamics instead of enhancing them. But then, I also think that even when you unplug most jazz guitarists, you hear they lack dynamic range in the first place, before they even plug into anything! Stick a lifeless overdrive or compressor on them and wonder why they don't sound anywhere near as expressive, or emotional as your average horn players.
Ironic then, that many players (and I'm as guilty as anyone
) use overdrive to try to emulate the "expressiveness" of horns....
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I remember Kurt Rosenwinkel once said he was going for a sound which was a cross between Holdsworth and Grant Green - I love GG's tone, it's traditional yet really good at cutting through the drums and having as much expression as a horn. I also love the warm, dark archtop tone but in an enclosed room with drums it just goes right to the back of the mix, I hear this a lot on youtube.
Last edited by Dirk; 12-18-2019 at 01:05 PM.
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Like all great jazz instruments, the guitar offers so much tonal and dynamic range that it really offers us so much in the search for our individual voice. Certainly when I started playing guitar, it had taken over the role of the sax in most pop/rock music solos because with distortion it could now fill that same sonic space.
That's where I'm coming from, guitar that had the emotional edgy/crunchy blues tone that was more like Coltrane than it was like Wes. I think lots of us are coming from that place. We learn to love and appreciate that pure warm 50's jazz tone that is from the jazz tradition, but at heart we're coming from that wailing sax substitute sound from the blues/rock tradition.
So many great sounds to choose from, and it hurts me when some people get too snobby and say that jazz guitar HAS to sound like Herb Ellis on an archtop. It can be that AND so much more. It's the 21st century....
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Lots of jazz guys use 12 strings - they can be a bit too thick and awkward for the OD thing.
When adding gain it thickens the sound anyway so you can drop down a gauge or two.
I just do the clean archtop thing, I think I'll stay that way - but if I had to do both sounds on a gig, a semi-hollow with 11s would suit me best.
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In the beginning there was Charlie...
I've read in a couple of interviews, with guitarist Mary Osborne and others, that Charlie Christian played with a distorted tone
(attributed to his low wattage, "crude-sounding amp") that Mary, who heard him playing before she saw him playing, thought was a tenor sax distorted through the sound system.
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Yeah I do have a couple of Charlie Christian recordings where his guitar tone is quite distorted. Great sound to my ears anyway.
That type of distortion is what I'm interested in exploring. Mainly for the attack of the note......but no sustain.
I have an aversion to sustaining electric guitars. I think I'm just tired of hearing it.
It seems to work in rock and blues guitar but I am interested in neither of those forms.
I was interested in the R Ford Dumble vibe because he was still able to play the 8th note passages with some clarity.
Way to much drive for me though and also the rear pickup usage seems necessary.
I too am only interested in the archtop shorter note sound. But there is a lot that can be done with that sound that hasn't been done yet. I intend to explore it.
Jazz is what you make it. That's why I like it.
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About a month back I was getting right into swing (pre-bop) and was experimenting with a slight breakup sound with the Ethos overdrive - the template in my mind was CC live at Minton's (the stuff!!!!!). Made me start thinking about how the rockabilly guys picked up on CC and what he was doing and have continued that sound, whereas the immediate generation of jazz players after CC (Barney,Tal,Raney,Herb,etc.) went down a more refined path tonally.
So when I was playing around with a slight gain/breakup tone, the two guitars I was using were a 2006 Gibson 175 and a 94 Korean Joe Pass Epi with GFS humbuckers. The epi killed it! sounded amazing whereas the 175 to my ears only wanted it clean and hifi. It seemed that when you add a slight bit of grit it has to 'merge' with the clean tone. It was like the epi brought it all together as one, whereas the 175 felt like the grit was a 'foreign body' lol
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Great description. Messing with all the elements can be baffling. What you think will happen usually doesn't.
Originally Posted by 3625
You may wish that you favorite playing guitar (in my case the Wesmo) is going to react well with OD etc but it sometimes doesn't.
Id be satisfied with a happy accident. For example if I discovered that I could get the sound I was chasing out of a Tele then I would play a Tele. I THINK I can get it from my 125. That guitar is a tone beast. Sadly.....for the fancy smancy solid spruce top guitar lover in me......it actually eats the Wesmo for tone. Acousticaly and electric.
So I'm thinking that my holy grail would be an arch top with a laminate top that weighs around 5lb....no more....and has a very loud but lower midrange focused acoustic sound.......does not have to be a pleasant acoustic sound......in fact it might be better if it was a little nasty.......and probably an early P90......or CC.
And I'm starting to think that all these Dumble type pedals may not be the path. I think it's gotta come from a low wattage valve guitar amp and it also has to push some air. It has to sound slightly broken to be beautiful.
But there has to be a new sound out there. Something that hasn't been heard before but has all the expressiveness that we crave.
Diefinitely the ranting of a sick man!
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Be careful Phil, you might be about to go down the rabbit hole...
When I was doing this I tried an old 125 out - this particular one wasn't happening. I remember playing a thinline cutaway one a while back that was amazing, had vibe. I was also considering a Gretsch, tried a couple of Jap ones out in shops without plugging them in - looked great but considering the asking price (a lot) they felt like spec'ed up epi's to me that looked really flash. But regarding Gretsch's, 125's etc., it's like maybe the gain/breakup sound likes a guitar that's a bit 'junky' by nature - in a good way.
I'd love to have a nice 125/150 with a Blues Junior/similar amp as a rig, in addition to my main one (L4,ethos,Roland jazz chorus) but cashwise it's too much for me - so I'll play around with what I've got and keep tinkering. My Epi's fun for that.
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Originally Posted by 3625
Be careful Phil, you might be about to go down the rabbit hole...
When I was doing this I tried an old 125 out - this particular one wasn't happening. I remember playing a thinline cutaway one a while back that was amazing, had vibe. I was also considering a Gretsch, tried a couple of Jap ones out in shops without plugging them in - looked great but considering the asking price (a lot) they felt like spec'ed up epi's to me that looked really flash. But regarding Gretsch's, 125's etc., it's like maybe the gain/breakup sound likes a guitar that's a bit 'junky' by nature - in a good way.
I'd love to have a nice 125/150 with a Blues Junior/similar amp as a rig, in addition to my main one (L4,ethos,Roland jazz chorus) but cashwise it's too much for me - so I'll play around with what I've got and keep tinkering. My Epi's fun for that.
I fear I am already down the rabbit hole. Blues Junior sounds interesting, I'll have to try one.
Anyone tried one of these Fender Amps.15 watts with a 15" speaker?
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I just posted this. I recorded it today. Giant Steps with distortion.
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Henry - was that through the Axe FX ?
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newsense - yes this was through the Axe Fx II.
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I think Spanky is using one of these Excelsior amps for his accordion in the Atomic Polka Trio. Originally Posted by Philco
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 04-09-2013 at 11:07 PM.
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^^^
Does anyone use tremolo outside of rock/pop? I've got an Ampeg with tube tremolo and I can't for the life of me figure out why a manufacturer would build trem into a circuit instead of reverb. Am I missing out on something?
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Rosenwinkel uses a tremolo on Remedy. Jakob Bro uses it too. Wes uses it on one of the ballads on smokin' at the half note, if I remember correctly. It can be a nice effect at times. Originally Posted by Gertrude Moser
Jens
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I use it when I want that effect.
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Ever hear any Marc Ribot ? Even Bill Frisell uses it sometimes. I've got a deluxe reverb amp and the vibrato (tremolo) is the ace in the hole. It can be very atmospheric. Surf jazz... Originally Posted by Gertrude Moser
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The overdrive gives the harmonics I crave in the tone of a saxophone. A clean tone can be warm and dark, but still be lacking those overtones that give the sax so much character.
What do you think of this? It was recorded on an Ampeg Reverb Rocket. Volume control is backed down on the guitar at the start for cleaner rhythm sound and gradually increased as I get into the solo.
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