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So, what constitutes an "intermediate" level of jazz guitar playing?
When does one rank themselves or a student in this range? I think the next level beyond beginner is very, very broad. I feel that I'm in an intermediate level of understanding of jazz guitar and how to play a variety of jazz chords (mainly Freddie Green comps with some speed and confidence), some 2 or 3 chord-melody tunes though not without fumbling often, very basic pentatonic scale improv. I can go through some basic scales but I'm definitely not at any comfort level of improving with licks or fundamental things like arpeggios to make anything sound musical. Obviously, I think more time with the instrument would get me another level of intermediate...and some day kind of advanced.
What's your criteria on this?
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03-18-2013 05:01 PM
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I think the better you get, the higher you set the bar.
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"Intermediate" is like the bell of the curve---lots of people there in a wide range from no-longer-a-beginner to almost-advanced.
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I consider myself as an intermediate beginner. On the road to intermediary. In my view, That comes from having lots of tunes at your disposal, being able to have a sort of immediate understanding of a song's harmony, being able to blow on cadences after a cursory analysis of the harmony,being able to play in time in a sort of melodic way with some modicum of rhythmic interest. Ie the first real instance of having your shit basically together without huge gaping holes.
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The more I think of it, the more I'm on that first part of the bell curve--comfortably outside of the beginner ranks, but far from the section where I would be deemed confident or capable of improv (the essense of the art). Just on the verge of these things but I can't prove it, yet. So much to learn, so little time.
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A lot of it to me depends on who you talk to and who you compare yourself to. Compared to some players in my area, I'm advanced. To a lot of players on this site and on recordings, I haven't even scratched the surface yet. I know I can safely say I'm no rank beginner.
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Compare yourself on an international level.
Beginner: you're learning.
Intermediate: simply? You can play changes. I split this up into three categories though. Early itermediate, you can play changes over easy tunes (satin doll, summertime, ect) mid intermediate, you can play changes through a wide spectrum of mid difficulty tunes (stella, attya). Adv intermediate: you can play changes on difficult tunes (giant steps, tunes with nonfunctional harmony). You have good time. The way you make changes is through cliches, arpeggios and scale patterns, nothing crazy, you still havent found your voice.
Adv player is someone who has their own voice, plays through tunes in an unorthodox manner, gets your attention, the rest of what the adv player has to learn comes from self discovery and developing that unique voice.
I rarely call people adv players, unless theyre some world class cat, or you can tell that the person knows their stuff. I mean, i went to a session the other night and saw this kid, about 19 years old. I wouldnt hesitate to call him an advanced player. He was playing some crazy stuff.
Also, a lot of these overlap, as there is no computerized test that says "you are level 38 on guitar".
A lot of mid intermediate players have their own voice, but cant play through complex changes.
I would still call this person a mid intermediate, if you cant get up on a band stand and play whats called at you, youre not advanced.
I consider myself mid intermediate. I can play over a few difficult tunes, but i'm still finding my own voice, and i'm still working on better ways to play through tunes.
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Well of course it's mostly a matter of opinion, and of course everything is relative. As a guitar teacher, I don't consider a person "intermediate" really until they can learn and perform songs proficiently, i.e. know their basic open & barre chords, know how to keep time, and know at least basic scale usage to either play the melody or solo. They don't have to shred to be intermediate, but have to be able to make at least simple music. Sometimes it takes a long time for someone to reach the "intermediate" zone, and sometimes people come in and are so talented they hit that zone in a matter of weeks --- in which case, they are still a "beginner" but their "intermediate" will be much higher level than someone else's.
As MarkRhodes says, most people fit into the intermediate level. An even harder question to answer might be: when does one become "advanced"? I think a lot of this has to do with the amount of time a person practices. People who are practicing several hours every day generally become advanced players, and can do that in a relatively short time (like maybe a few years). Some of the rest of us don't have the same level of drive and/or time to practice 6+ hours a day, and thus we may spend 15+ years being in the intermediate zone. To me an advanced player would be someone who could lead a group at a professional level. This doesn't mean all the record labels would want to sign them, or they'd make a bunch of money! I think at the most advanced level, you would be capable of teaching someone else, and leading that person all the way from beginner to advanced level. You would really understand how music works, not just be a real good "by ear" player. You'd know all your theory & be a capable music reader, and of course have outstanding technique.
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I like the comment that an advanced player has their own voice
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I'd think of an intermediate jazz player to be someone at the second year of a college music program all the way to senior year and beyond. Of course a small percentage of those could be advanced.
This is just my opinion, this is so much up to opinion...
Skills for average intermediate (I think there is a huge range of sub-levels at the intermediate level and I think the majority of the folks around here think they're at the intermediate level)...
be able to sight read chords and melody for simple tunes (like Autumn Leaves, All of Me, Blue Bossa),
also be able to comfortable solo over those changes,
have a 'memorized' repertoire of say 20 or more tunes,
be able to play interactively with a ensemble with good time,
have some original compositions,
know all the standard arpeggios and common scales including the altered scale
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I think I'm at the low intermediate level.
I think very few make it to the advanced level and the advanced level is simple not obtainable for most. If we only have beginner, intermediate and advanced for our levels... Advanced is for folks like George Benson, Pat Metheny, Jim Hall etc. ...Last edited by fep; 03-22-2013 at 12:32 AM.
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Somewhere in the description of "intermediate JAZZ guitar" should be the question: What is my understanding level for the history of JAZZ? I am as guilty as anyone for having their head in the "jazz guitar cloud" for many years....as a kid, I thought JAZZ began and ended with Barney Kessel......oh foolish one!
Every "real" jazz musician I've ever met has had this uncanny encyclopedic knowledge of the music. Who recorded with who...when...where...etc, etc. And not just their own instrument, every instrument! I've listened to this music every day for the past 15 years or so, and still feel like I've just scratched the surface...
So, "intermediate" to me would have to include working on becoming an amateur JAZZ historian.
JAZZ is as deep as the ocean, but if you're not listening, you'll always be swimming at the shallow end
Last edited by Tom Painter; 03-22-2013 at 01:32 PM.
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Take the required skills of being a musician.... Put each of those skills into a rating system... 1-10 whatever.
Decide on how you want to divide the levels. 1-3 beginner, 4-7 intermediate, 8-10 advanced
The technical BS is fairly easy to come up with... fretboard wizardry..sight reading, performance. Deciding on how well the performance is somewhat subjective. To be able to rate, you would need to be aware of compositional techniques, harmony, theory, improve techniques and have a well rounded history of jazz common practice... to be able to have references to relate to. (good ears)
The I like it or not... would be easy, but I would put that in the performance area.
Almost all music schools have basic outlines of required skills.
I can tell you from a professional view... you should be able to walk into any setting and be able to cover to get to that advanced level. I consider myself... 8 or 9 and in any week I cover from reading through Jon Lord's Concerto for group and Orchestra to a Fidddle Jazz show, reading through transcribed Joe Venuti and Tony Romano duos, stuff Smith to Django and Grappelli... to no charts in any key gigs. These are not memorized or with rehearsals.
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AESTHETIC CRITERIA FOR THE EVALUATION OF A JAZZ ARTIST
From Jerry Coker's "Improvising Jazz", 1987 edition, Fireside/Simon & Schuster
Since the growth of the student of jazz will depend to a great extent on the influence of recorded music, he must learn to absorb and evaluate what he hears. His assessment of techniques will in time become automatic and he will then be free to perceive the music from every aspect. Jazz is made up of many intangible qualities that create appeal. This appeal becomes a matter of personal taste. However, there are some definite questions that the listener can ask that are necessary to a well-rounded evaluation.
1. Choice of materials. Does the artist make use of the best songs available? Is the song appropriate for the player's style and interpretation?
2. Emotional content. Does his tone quality seem alive? Is he able to project, emotionally?
3. Versatility. How many different moods is he able to create? Does he adapt to new musical environments and establish rapport with others in the group? Is the excitement he creates limited to swing, rhythmic outbursts, humor, and mischief? Or does the excitement also take on the more subtle aspects of beauty, thoughtfulness, sincerity, sweetness, and melancholy?
4. Taste. Is the chosen mood always appropriate to the musical situation? Does he practice moderation and economy in using his materials and techniques?
5. Originality. Is the artist an innovator? Though he might show that he has absorbed the qualities of other players, is there a considerable amount of material which seems to be his own, so that one is actually able to distinguish him from other artists of a similar style? Does there seem to be a creative urge about him which causes his style to be constantly enriched with new ideas?
6. Intellectual energy. Can the player hold one's interest with only the stimulus of his ingenuity? Is the player physical, cerebral, or both?
Good thoughts!
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Originally Posted by Reg
ouch. lets not call you "intermediate" then. haha.
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So what are the levels of what skills that would be part of determining level of skill sets...
Maybe just be aware of the aesthetic criteria and practice what those could be. I would think they would apply more to professionals and very advanced players.
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Intermediate Jazz Guitar eh?
Well, assuming that we are talking about a "student" and not a pro (not a jazz pro anyway) when discussing itermediate, you could define intermediate in a number of ways such as:
1. You are working with the kind of material and performance standards required of a freshman or sophomore guitar performance major at Berklee, UNT, USC, MSM, etc. (Berklee Guitar levels 1-4 are one example)
2. You are working with the kind of material and performance standards required of a DipLCM candidate. (see RGT Jazz Guitar Performance Diplomas)
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It's so broad as to be almost without meaning. Saying someone is intermediate level conveys almost no information about a persons level of ability because there is such an enormous range of what people can do on the guitar that gets lumped into that description. If someone says they are a beginner, then you pretty much have an idea about where they are at - give or take - and if someone is advanced, well you have certain expectations about what you might hear. But intermediate? Other than - "not beginner and not advanced" it's pretty vague. Originally Posted by edward74
This kind of reminds me of when my kids were taking karate. At one time in the past, there were two colour belts- white and black. The white was for students and the black was for masters. For kids now, I guess they need a sense of accomplishment so they added about 7 or 8 different colours to show their progression. I think for jazz guitar, we should do the same as they use to do in karate - either you're a student or a master(which is not to say that you are not still learning). You really have to hear the player a lot or ask him a lot of questions in order to get a good idea of their actual level anyway.
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Only level to ever be is "still learning."
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I'd like to try to re-frame the issue by posing the question: What do we have to gain by accurately determining "levels" of jazz guitar?
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I think these are good points. Originally Posted by Reg
There would be things like sight reading, rhythmic accuracy, time feel, tone, fretboard knowledge, chord voicings, etc, that are somewhat technical and easier to quantify. Then there are things that are tougher to quantify, like how the harmonic content of the improvisation relates to the history of jazz improvisation, the consistency in content through out the solo or the comp, development of motifs, interaction with ensemble, ability to respond, etc. We could list categories.
Then when you look at the super guitarist that gets a 10 in all elements, we might get some pretty boring music.
I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned, Berklee actually has a rating system, 1-8. You get rated on different categories, reading, improv, some others, I forget. From what I hear, the system can be pretty whack. The judgements can really vary from teacher to teacher based on their preferences and what they can hear. For example, I hear Nir Felder got poor ratings at Berklee.
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OK, these are not my categories, but they do come from Hal Crook, esteemed player
and teacher at Berklee.
He has many fine instructional books including "Ready, Aim, Improvise!" [Advance publications]
In a chapter towards the end of RAI he discusses in some depth the matter of Self-Critiquing: Accuracy and Musicality.
He then goes on to offer Stages of Musical Development [instrumental and improvisation]
There are four main levels each with four sub-levels and those sub-levels can be further divided
into three sub-levels of ability.
Now while this sounds a bit OTT,take into account that he has provided 280 odd pages of instruction
from the very beginning to what a large number of us would consider a high level before laying out
very clearly how to find your current achievement.
So you have: Four Stages of Musical Development [The Outline]
-Beginner [Accuracy,Some Musicality] Approx 0-6 years experience
Beginning Beginner 0-2 years
Intermediate Beginner 2-4 years
Advanced Beginner 4-6 years
-Intermediate [Accuracy, Musicality] Approx 6-12 years experience
Beginning[BI] 6-8 years
Intermediate [BI] 8-10 years
Advanced [AI] 10-12 years
-Advanced [Musicality, Creativity] Approx 12-18 years experience
Beginning [BA] 12-14 years
Intermediate [IA] 14-16 years
Advanced [AA] 16-18 years
-Master [Musicality, Creativity, Originality] 18[+] years
Beginning [BM] 18-25 years
Intermediate [IM] 25-30 years
Advanced [AM] 30 or more years
Well there you have it........
You can see the reason for my disclaimers ; it would be easy to understand despondency
breaking out when confronted with that list.
Take into account that it is presented out of context of Hal Crook's book,
which is for my money about the best book on the subject of how to approach
the subject of Jazz Improvisation.
Also, if you read the book up to the point where these Stages of Development are presented,
you'd enjoy Hal's engaging,clear and sometimes amusing style.
I do think it is a pretty hard ass way to put it......I mean Bird barely lived long to make Master Level.
Discuss, if you feel like it.
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^^^^
By that scale Bob Dylan would be advanced-master and Julian Lage would be intermediate advanced. Maybe Julian should ask Bob for a lesson.
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We might be missing the point of the rating system...
I would believe the system(s) are for the student to be able to be aware of what skills are needed to be able to perform Jazz. It's difficult to to become an accomplished Jazz Player... most never get there, and put in enough time on their instrument to get there... develop the required skills. Usually because of lack of organization, lousy teachers and study materials... no motivation or motivation directed in wrong directions.
Generally most of us fit somewhere in the middle. Rating systems are not for the exceptions... Dylan, Lang or Bird.
There to help students become aware of their deficiencies, what they are and how to approach developing the skills.
Reg
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I think goals become very relevant to that concept of rating. Originally Posted by Reg
For example, if somebody wants to be able to do more or less what you do, which (if I understand correctly) is get hired for jazz gigs in different ensembles, that's different than somebody who wants to start their own group, or somebody who wants to specialize in something (like bop, fusion, modern, gypsy, whatever.) Plenty of crossover of skills, but it gets more complicated when we consider the different things an individual could pursue within music, or even just within jazz guitar.
If the goal is to be able to cover in a wide variety of traditional jazz performance situations, then it's easier to make levels. Especially if the individual is trying to get actual performance work.Last edited by JakeAcci; 03-25-2013 at 05:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Jake - no need to go deep on this one. It's simply a way to mark progress.
Measuring and marking progress is a part of just about any training or education process that one can think of, since time immemorial.
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