What is jazz?

[TieDyedDevil]

Depending upon where I look and who I talk to, I get different impressions of what kinds of music may be legitimately called "jazz".

1. Some people, players in particular, seem to insist that the canon be honored by playing standards. My impression is that this is the dominant view among working jazz musicians.

2. Others seem to take a broader definition by insisting upon a certain harmonic sophistication combined with a swing feel and some degree of improvisation. The former group refers to this as "jazzy", but not Jazz.

3. Only a few self-identified jazz players seem willing to admit "hyphenated" forms of jazz such as jazz-rock.

I have a difficult time accepting the first definition as it implies certain stagnation for the genre. Jazz has evolved through multiple eras. It seems counterproductive to draw a line in the sand and say that anything more modern than X can't be considered jazz.

My own preference would be to admit the second definition, as it seems most in keeping with the tradition of jazz. Even though the language may evolve over time, the spirit of sophisticated improvisation and exploration seems to me to be in keeping with the jazz tradition.

[Sailor]

When you mention #2 you still include the word "swing" which I think still defines a period, (historically). I think there is a "jazz" period like there is a classical and baroque period. You can play modern or contemporary music and define it a s anything you like I guess??

Great question.

Sailor

[hot ford coupe]

I've always quantified jazz as the second definition. You can play standards, new music, different rhythms, etc., but when you make it swing with a more sophisticated harmonic framework and you improvise protions of the music, that's jazz.

[mr. beaumont]

i know it when i hear it

to me, "swing" means groove, not just a triplet feel.

jazz should swing.
jazz should involve improvisation, and that ain't just solos, we're talking group interplay...
but jazz is open to any exception of a "rule."

the only thing i can say with certainty is when cats put rules as to what constitutes "jazz" or what doesn't, they lose the spirit of the music.

[gravitas]

Jazz is blues with cooler harmony

Yaaaay black people

[Goofsus4]

I'll go with "2" since I am not much of a purist on any issue.

I also agree with Mr. B that "I know it when I hear it."

[derek]

For me it is about improvisation. Improvising the feel, the harmony, the melody, and then of course improvising over the tune by all the players. Swing definitely is a feature of jazz, but not all modern jazz swings.

People mistakenly think that any instrumental music that features improvisation is jazz. See Smooth Jazz, an oxymoron if ever there was one. My question back is do the players spontaneously reharmonize the tune, take liberties with the melody and rhythm?

[TieDyedDevil]

"People mistakenly think that any instrumental music that features improvisation is jazz."

OK, now this is interesting. Obviously improvisation in other styles (blues-rock, bluegrass, country, etc.) is not jazz. But what is it that *defines* jazz? Is it the progressions? The color tones in the harmonies? Something else...?

[m78w]

This question always comes up with my students. I never really have an answer for them because jazz is not easily defined, especially in today's post fusion era.

I like the old saying that goes:

"I can't tell you what jazz is, but I know what it sounds like."

MW

[John Curran]

While I'm also of the "I know it when I hear it" school, I decided to look this up as this question appears frequently on this forum.

So here is the clinical definition of jazz quoted from Webster's New World Dictionary of Music;

"Term covering several musical styles of African-American origin, including New Orleans/Dixieland, Chicago, big band/swing, bebop, cool/Third Stream, free jazz, fusion, neotraditionalism; usually characterized by improvisation and an unlimited variety of dotted or syncopated melodic rhythms against a steady duple or quadruple meter, producing a synthesis known as swing. Jazz melodies are set in major keys modified by blue notes (lowered 3rds, 7ths, and 5ths). The basis for these notes has been attributed to the overtone series and major-minor equivocation, cultural factors aside; but the syncopated melody often departs widely from it's harmonic connotations."

Whew!

I particularly like the attempt to define "swing", it's a synthesis! But of course.

This is kind of like trying to clinically define an orgasm, it's easier to experience than to define.

Also, I've never heard the term "Third Stream", has anyone else?

john

[John Curran]

From the same dictionary,

Third Stream - "Compositional synthesis of cool jazz and classical techniques associated with the 1950's and early 1960's... If the 1st stream is classical, and the 2nd stream is jazz, 3rd Stream is their Hegelian synthesis..."

Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" is given as an example.

john

[TieDyedDevil]

Wikipedia has an interesting article:

Jazz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After reading that I have the feeling that jazz may be any music that you call jazz...

[mike walker]

Jazz is never having to say you're sorry.

[hubert54]

hi there,

hm, not sure, if I got it "right", but...

"Jazz" - why should somebody argue about a "definition"?
With me, - there is no "baroque period" - certainly it was a period
But, please tell me, what is the "period we're suffering"?
Johann Sebastian Bach didn't seem to depend on a thinking of "period"
as for the guitar or the lute
there are frets or no frets (the "gambe")
for heavens sake, why is there no music without "neurotic fingerings"?

never mind
it's a lucky guy from Tyrol...

sopra festum
a friend of mine - gave up struggling with me on Mickey Baker
he prefers to be a teacher ( math - psych )
but he suffers like me...
thank all of you here
for me it's a lot of fun and inspiration

umberto

[hubert54]

hi you,

hm, I try to remember what you've posted
"Jazz" or whatever else
I don't know why people write that lot about something
why isn't it possible to hear, what you did with any instrument abroad...

isn't it the voice in your mind?
or whatever
why the term "music"?

oh I'm very happy with that forum
don't mind my "english"
but it's a great thing here...

all the best
Hubert

[hubert54]

hm,
you mean to define "protons" in music?
seems to me a sophisticated form of "financial crisis"...
Pardon, what is "music" for you?
For me, bye the way, it is mysterious, or perhaps, doesn't exist in the way,
I tried to envolve for me for years and years, but they end...

never mind
Hubert

[mike walker]

Hey roland,
Believe it, messages of snow deliver but 'melt'
in the dialect. No more rope in the fridge.
Excuse me, why is a budgie?

Forget that,

Mike

[mangotango]

Jazz is the glue that attaches your soul, via your instrument or voice, to the outside world.

Anything else, please don't hesitate to ask.

[skei]

The discussions here never cease to amaze me.
Hmm..
Peace
Skei (the amazed and bewildered one)

[hot ford coupe]

I think Louis Armstrong was the one that said something like "If you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know". I'm also a firm believer in the statement that I know it when I hear it. I just wish people would stop pidgeon holing music all the time. In many cases, the borders between styles are not concrete.

[derek]

I think Louis Armstrong was the one that said something like "If you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know". I'm also a firm believer in the statement that I know it when I hear it. I just wish people would stop pidgeon holing music all the time. In many cases, the borders between styles are not concrete.

Many times these "pidgeonholes" are artificial marketing ploys. Easy Listening becomes Adult Contemporary becomes Smooth Jazz, etc. However, from a student/teacher standpoint, or player standpoint, there is some value in this analysis.

Pops Armstrong grew up in an era where the classroom was the bandstand, and you apprenticed on the gig to learn your craft. There is just a very small percentage of gigs today compared to his time, and such apprenticing programs are either nonexistant, or very few and far between. Gary Burton is the only conteporary bandleader I can think of who regularly helps develop young players.

Due to this, jazz has moved into the classrooms of universities. Like any other academic topic, it will be dissected, analyzed and curriculae will be formed to properly teach it. Academia has no tolerance for ambiguous topics and will not rest until definitions and form are crystalized. Such is the time we live in now.

So when one of our resident jazz professors says upstream he doesn't have an answer for his students when they ask the question "what is jazz?", can you imagine the fear that inspires in the hearts of young students hoping to make a career out of something undefinable?

[TieDyedDevil]

You make good points, derek. Labels come into play mainly for purposes of commerce and pedagogy. (The latter being closely related to the former, but that's an entirely different discussion.)

Taken as an art form or as personal expression, you can call music whatever you want (or call it nothing at all).

As soon as you you want someone to buy your music, whether as a recording or by paying you to play live, you'd better have a good answer when your customer asks what kind of music you play. That's where it becomes important to have an understanding of what does and doesn't constitute jazz, if only from the viewpoint of your customer.

As far as jazz instruction goes, it's probably appropriate to look back over the history of jazz and classify the different periods and styles. I have no problem with that. What does bother me is that many devoted students of jazz seem to *only* look backward.

I'm more interested in the *future* of jazz, which is why I ask "what is jazz"?

[fep]

Taken as an art form or as personal expression, you can call music whatever you want (or call it nothing at all).

As soon as you you want someone to buy your music, whether as a recording or by paying you to play live, you'd better have a good answer when your customer asks what kind of music you play. That's where it becomes important to have an understanding of what does and doesn't constitute jazz, if only from the viewpoint of your customer.

I like to call it nothing at all... Labeling music creates a preconceived impression to the listener that may not be accurate.

But if I have to label my music I like to say 'Indie'. That even covers more styles than jazz and doesn't really give much of a preconceived impression at all. 'Indie' technically means music created without the outside influence of a record company. To me it means 'not commercial'.

[TieDyedDevil]

I dunno, fep... For me, "indie" conjures up a lot of musical connotations, none of which are even remotely related to jazz.

I have to admit that I don't follow a lot of indie music. Still, the music I do hear that's classified as indie (played by artists in local clubs) tends to be more identifiable as folk or singer/songwriter or pop or rock or emo. I have yet to hear any local indie band that I'd connect - even through an exceedingly generous interpretation - with the jazz genre.

Maybe that says more about the local indie bands that I've seen than about the indie genre in general. I really get the impression that "indie" is more about a statement of commerce - or perhaps independence from commercial concerns - than it is a statement about musical style.

[Goofsus4]

Excuse me if someone already said this, but I've seen a quote somewhere (maybe on this site) that said something like:

"Jazz is a practical joke played on a song and the audience is in on it."

I thought that was a great way to look at it.