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Learning jazz makes my head hurt sometimes. It is so hard that I feel burnt out often. It's as if the more you know, the more you hunger for more things that will make your head hurt even more. Why do we subject ourselves to this? Maybe that's why jazz ain't popular. I'm going to take a mini vacation
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06-11-2012 12:31 PM
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I know what you mean. "Jazz" and "Fun" sometimes seem to be on two different planets.
If you can pull these two concepts together, you really got something.
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Someone once said that learning jazz is in effect learning to accept greater and greater degrees of pain. I think he was referring to the complexities of harmony.
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It doesn't hurt when you take it in bite size chunks. Then you can gradually increase your practice time, little by little and before too long you'll be practicing for 9 hours a day effortlessly.
The tiresome parts are actually the ones that give you the most results. Your brain gets tired because it is processing new information. When you've got all the basics down, learning new stuff won't be as tiresome anymore because you can usually relate it in one way or another to what you already know.
That's when the real fun begins, when you start to see the pieces of the puzzle come together and you'll come up with new ways from old knowledge.
Now in the summer, I have lots of extra energy. I'm the kind of person who is affected by the seasons. I become unproductive in the dark season.
Nowadays I've worked up to 9 hours a day. Minimum of 6. On a good 9 hours day I'll get 4-5 hours of gypsy jazz and 4-5 hours of bebop jazz.
In the dark season I'll maybe get 4 hours at most. Mostly as little as 2 hours a day.
You must learn how your own unique mind and body works, so that you can work with them to get the most out of your day. That's the most important thing I've learned so far in regards to practice.
If the way you're practicing isn't fun, then you have to stop what you're doing and do it in a different way until you find a way that makes it fun. Keep in mind that tiresome can be fun though. Tiresome + fun is good. Tiresome + feeling like sh*t is bad. When you're feeling like shi*, your brain won't process sh*t - or it will only process sh*t, whichever way you like to look at it. Please excuse the language. It serves to mark the importance of my point though.
When you're having fun learning new stuff and can't put the guitar down because you've just got to find more applications for that one concept you're working on, that's when your learning curve will shoot through the roof.
Work with your mind. You can never force it to work with you, so you have to find out how it works and accomodate to it.
My 2 cents.Last edited by AmundLauritzen; 06-11-2012 at 01:51 PM.
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It's not the learning of jazz that hurts my head; it's the public throwing rocks and rotten tomatoes at my head when I attempt to play it.
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Simplify.
The internet will make you believe you have to study for 20 years and practice ten hours a day to play your first jazz tune. Not true.
Learn songs. Listen to tons of jazz. Steal licks...learn your arpeggios...connect them with chromatics...play melodies...Learn two things WELL, instead of 200 things half-assed.
Jazz is huge...as you progress, your scope can broaden and you can get into more complex ideas. Don't think of this as overwhelming--it's good news...you never have to be bored again!
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Mr B's right on it again.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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When I feel burned out, I usually transcribe something and then feel better.
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I am just wondering at what point does it all come together. I've been learning theory for about the last 8 years. Now, granted, I ain't no Einstein, but I'm no dummy, either. It still doesn't come easily for me, and I'm not talking about the playing, I'm talking about the theory and applying it. Actually, I like the sound of my improvising, but I just play what comes out, and I know I could be much more if I was able to apply the ideas realized through what I'm learning. The learning is frustratingly slow. (I have an excellent instructor who is very patient.)
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Why are you learning music theory?
What are you using now, when you practice a tune. When you say when you improvise, you "what just comes out" what's coming out?
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"Mr B's right on it again."
yes he is.
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Over the last eight years, I've learned chord structure, sight reading, major/minor scales, major/minor pentatonic and blues scales, and melodic minor scales. I've learned modes of the major and melodic minor scales, and I am now learning how to apply that knowledge.
I'm also learning songs- chords and leads and some chord melodies- mostly jazz, some rock. When I learn a song, I'll record it. First the rhythm part, then the lead part. I will always play the head, then improvise over the chord changes. I'll record multiple lead tracks, select the ones I like, and boom, I'm done. I think if I had a better understanding of how to apply and to use modes I could add more interesting options to my improvisation. While I improvise I'm thinking arpeggiated chords and scales. Some of it sounds really good, some not so good. It's funny that that often I don't realize how good something sounds until I play it back.
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Start a band, or a duo. Start focusing on the fun.
Last edited by Buster Loaf; 06-11-2012 at 06:09 PM.
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A few things concern me here... Originally Posted by zigzag
What do you mean "you're "done?"" Done learning the tune?
You've spent eight years learning all this stuff and NOW ou're trying to apply it?
Of course you're overwhelmed!
What are you most comfortable with now, as far as approaching improv? There's no magic in modes...we have 12 notes readily available...it's time to start making them work for you. Let's get to the bottom of this today, I know the collective knowledge here can straighten you out.
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I meant to add the circle of fifths and key signatures to what I have also learned.
When I say I'm done, I mean that I don't really spend much time with it after that. I kinda move on to the next project. Occasionally, I will come back to a tune to fiddle around with it, if it is one of those tunes that really grabs me (eg Round Midnight, West Coast Blues, Bright Size Life, My Funny Valentine).
Since learning melodic minor, my instructor has begun to really delve into theory. It is probably my fault that I have not really tried to holistically grasp the concepts that my instructor has presented to me. Rote memorization has been the order of the day, and I am just now starting to weave all of this together into some semblance of order and understanding. An instructor can only do so much, and it must be up to the student to ask questions that will help the instructor understand how to fill in the gaps.
I also know that I need to get a firmer grasp of the guitar neck both horizonally and vertically, the actual notes and the intervals.
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I know i am just a faceless internet stranger....but if i were you i would put all the theory away until you have that fretboard down cold.
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Yeah, my instructor gets on me about that. LOL
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Who told you to put aside actual playing for dry exercises? Man, no wonder you're frustrated! Originally Posted by zigzag
As soon as you have the technical part of something down, then apply it to a tune right away. Otherwise it's just some esoteric, separate thing that isn't part of your playing.
Forget modes for now. What you need to do is learn an easy standard like Autumn Leaves. Improvise on that targeting the chord tones to train your ear. Simple melodies only using the notes from the key. Learn a few licks on those changes and improvise into and out of those licks. Get some music going. Everything you've learned theoretically will start to make sense to you once you can relate it to something REAL.
I think you're thinking too hard about the theory. There are only guidelines, no rules.
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I think it's harder these days. It's hard for me to be objective, as when I was growing up, sitting around and listening to records was a family activity. Non-musicians actively listened to music - not analytically of course but they were actually listening nonetheless. We weren't continuously being bombarded by tons of extraneous stimuli.
I stressed learning modes earlier in my teaching, in the early 90's. I thought that once my students got going with modes, all the music they had in their heads would be able to come out. I began to realize that they didn't have much if any music in their heads. Most of them hadn't really been listening.
I didn't begin to tackle jazz until I'd been playing rock, blues and funk professionally for years, and it was and is still difficult! I can't imagine what it's like trying to play jazz if you have no background in the blues and never even listen(ed) to jazz, but many students are in that boat.
I can't believe that some of these students will literally go for years studying modes and scales, and their instructors never say, "Look - enough scales - you've been playing for XX years and you can't make music with a simple major scale yet.."
It's because the golden goose keeps on laying the golden eggs, and these "instructors" have nothing else to teach but scales / modes.
/rant off
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Yeah, that's true. Autumn Leaves was one of the first songs I learned. I've improvised over those chord changes for hours. I can play scales over that song forwards and backwards, vertically, horizontally, upside down, and diagonally. In fact, I may be shortchanging my abilities. Where I have problems is in two areas: understanding theory and having a feel for the potential exploratory options in interpreting a song.
Maybe my problem is that I just don't like my tone. Could it be that I just have no talent for guitar?
I get that if I want to play D Dorian that I can play a C major scale resolving to D. I get that a Dorian scale has a b3 and a b7. So what? Do I just have to practice hearing modes until I realize what I can do with them?
And suppose I spend years learning inversions. Where am I really?
In the end, does all this mean that I just have to play (period) to get to where I what to be?
BTW, I'm 59 years old. I've been a serious listener to all kinds of music for 50 years. Dabbled in guitar for 47. Been a serious player for about 17. Been a student for about 8.Last edited by zigzag; 06-11-2012 at 09:29 PM.
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Where'd everybody go?
Back to the original question. When does it feel like it all comes together for you guys? When does the theory feel like second nature? When can someone just talk about it and you immediately understand what they're saying? When does learning stop being such a struggle?
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When you play it for others.
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It's really such a hard question to answer. Sometimes I feel great about it, sometimes I feel I don't know s--t. Originally Posted by zigzag
OK. So that's the all time jazz player saying that. My opinion too. And don't be so hard on yourself. Originally Posted by Charlie Parker
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What i can tell you is that i have never been able to call up anything on the fly that i didnt have hours and hours of practice with....amd i never practiced anything i didnt have a practical application for.
Knowledge without practical application is useless
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Zigzag, you need to listen to what the pros play and really spend some time studying their playing to make sense of it. You will start to see how they choose notes in order to make them sound musical and you will get some ideas on how to phrase.
Same goes for comping (you mentioned "inversions").
Stop practicing scales for a few months and transcribe some stuff.
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