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Hi Guys,
The term virtuoso is often overused !
I'm wondering what the folks here consider a "virtuoso standard" ?
Alternate picking wise, I can play most stuff in 16ths @ 150 bpm comfortably before daily warm up exercises.
on a good day, simpler passages up to 16ths 170bpm
or 16th triplets @ 125 bpm
legato, sweeps and tapping can be done quicker but I tend not to track tempos on those approaches.
I do try to use sensitive dynamics, and various types of swing/straight feel (also a technique factor).
the usual questions of good taste versus technicalities are not my point here.
Sorry I can't post audio files of my playing yet.
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05-28-2012 06:26 PM
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Good evening, dj...
Virtuoso..? Looking it up, I find...
1. (Music, other) a consummate master of musical technique and artistry
2. a person who has a masterly or dazzling skill or technique in any field of activity
...which seems fair enough to me. How that translates into numbers, I wouldn't know, but I imagine that if you played in front of me, I'd probably admit at least the second definition, perhaps both, even. I rather think that all is relative, however. I'm well out of any such league, of course, and personally find other gratifications in either playing or listening to music of just about any kind (not too fond of military tattoos, but can appreciate the expertise...) than technique for it's own sake, but to each his/her own.
Congratulations.
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I don't think to many around here would list some level of speed as part of their "virtuoso" standard.
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My definition of "virtuoso": Someone who plays something I actually give a s--t about hearing, and does it musically.
+1 to Fep's comment. Couldn't have said it better.
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Virtuoso? I agree with someone who's mastered the instrument. Johnny Smith, Barney Kessel, Andres Segovia, George Van Eps come to mind.
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Agreed. "Virtuoso", to me, is when someone can play straight from their mind, not limited by skill or their instrument. A virtuoso may have speed, but few with speed are virtuosos.
Originally Posted by fep
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In Classical music there is a distinction between Maestro and Virtuoso.
Maestros tend to be the composers or conductors, Virtuosos the performers.
I was once studying a composition degree and a tutor said that most Great composers were also virtuosos.
this led me to quit the degree and go off to practice more!
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No, you're confusing 'virtuoso' and 'good'. You couldn't consider anyone who couldn't play at machine-gun speed to be virtuoso, that sort of technical ability is a sine qua non for a virtuoso. 'Virtuoso' implies Dad3353's 'dazzling skill or technique', much more than 'musical'. Trust me on this, I am myself much more of a virtuoso when it comes to vocabulary than playing music, unfortunately. Originally Posted by fep
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Who cares?
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My sister is a virtuoso.... of the typewriter!
I can bust out 8th lines at 360, but that does not make me a virtuoso, hell that does not even make me a musician! I think the term "virtuoso" has no place in Jazz. For a start, none of us are impressed by speed alone, let alone "dazzled".
I for one am more dazzled by Jim Hall's suppleness, or Wes's melodic invention, or Lenny Breau's harmonic concept, or..... ok, I'll stop, I think you get it....
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hendrix was virtuosi
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I came across this on a Jazz Guitar lessons site:
"Green played with a pick and was not a virtuoso guitarist; he never played real fast because the music came first, and the technique obeyed his musical expression. Coming from a soul/gospel background, the feel was always more important.
In Green's improvisation we hear mostly eight-notes with some triplets and very (very) occasional double-time arpeggios (swept-picked across the strings)."
It had my head scratching wondering what "virtuoso" meant too.
I am just the curious sort like that, especially when people start throwing out terms.
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I'm definitely impressed by speed, especially somebody who can alternate pick jazz lines quickly and cleanly. Mostly because I'm just jealous! Originally Posted by princeplanet
But, this "am I a virtuoso?" question really rubs me the wrong way. Who cares? If the question is "is what I can do fast or impressive?" then the answer from me is a definite yes. Who cares about defining the word "virtuoso" especially as it relates to oneself? Just seems like the point of the thread is for the OP to fluff himself. Give me a break, DJ.
It would be like making a post saying "I can play Giant Steps in 7/8, and can play uptempo Michael Brecker lines back note-for-note from one listen. Does that make me 'awesome?' I'm curious how you guys define the word 'awesome' and whether I'm good enough to meet that standard. Please note that if you tell me I am not awesome, I will argue with you until you either admit that I am awesome, or stop responding."
Kind of kidding. Kind of.
Oh also, what is "killin'?" If I post a clip will you guys tell me if I am "killin'" or not? Thanks!
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On Victor Wooten's Groove Workshop DVD, Anthony Wellington describes four levels of musical knowledge.
Unconscious not-knowing: This is where you don't know what you don't know. This is the kid who is playing air guitar, or maybe he just got a guitar for Christmas and is standing in front of a mirror imagining himself in front of a massive crowd. The one upshot to this stage: it's a blissful state of existence. Nobody ever plays air guitar without smiling.
Conscious not-knowing: This is where that kid takes his first lesson and suddenly realizes that there's a whole world of scales and chords and theory out there, and he is so very lost. He has potential to grow, but he sees the road ahead and it is very intimidating. This is not a blissful state at all.
Conscious knowing: At this point, our young player has learned. He knows his scales and licks and is, by most accounts, a competent, even good, player. However, he still thinks about what he is doing. Rather than having a solo flow from his mind, he deliberately chooses to dance around a C Lydian scale or use a particular Wes lick. And it's this mental block that prevents this level from being a blissful state.
Unconscious knowing: Though Wellington doesn't use the word, to me, this is virtuosity. This is where one no longer thinks about what they're playing or how, but just lets the music flow from their instrument. This is the point where you're so good, you don't benchmark yourself by how fast your fingers are, or how good your ears are, or any of that. You just play, and that is what makes this a blissful state.
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I'm impressed by speed and a few of my favorite guitarists play pretty fast. But that alone is certainly not why they're my favorites.
Jim Hall is one of my favorites and people don't describe him as fast. Just about fast enough to play Scrapple From the Apple at a decent tempo.
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yes, the term is vastly overused, and for marketing purposes.
the definition off the top of my head from memory, has two basic characteristics.
1. the upside - virtually unlimited technical fluency and capability. speed is part of this to be certain - but it depends on what is being played. in other words, some things are fairly easy to play fast, so speed alone doesn't cut it. on the other hand, if the material in question is difficult to play - and - is being played fast, is crystal clear, played with superb tone and expression/dynamics, and is performed under complete control, then you have it. a virtuoso player is one who is literally world class in their capability. (think Chopin, Liszt, etc). such players tackle the most challenging pieces/performances.
2. the downside - such players can be big show-offs, and may emphasize show-boating over sincere attempts to be artistic.
it's probably fair to say that while it's not critically important to be a virtuoso player in non-classical styles, jazz demands more of its instrumentalists than other non-classical styles.
Last edited by fumblefingers; 05-29-2012 at 01:07 AM.
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Jake . . . . you're awesome!!!! But, to really validate that statement . . . you're going to need a second opinion. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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I would say your current level of acheivement definitely qualifies you as a virtuoso.
You can now stop practicing and start scoring chicks.
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
"killin" is stupid-ass jive talk.
uh, but, nevertheless - it means playing great, playing hot, playing a good solo.
or, maybe it means "bath salts".
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Jeff, it's an important to keep practicing a little bit to not let skills deteriorate. Chicks will not be scored if his 16th notes start maxing out under 145 bpm. So I might say that he should go into more of a "maintenance" practice routine. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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The 2 times I saw Frank Vignola (once with Bucky Pizzarelli and once with another "killin" :-) guitarist) the term virtuoso came to mind several times.
I have seen musicians play that were considered virtuosos and while their skills were impressive it was kind of boring. Frank, however, played very tastefully whether playing blisteringly fast or slow ballads. Every tune he played had me really focused on what is coming next.
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Frank Vignola is awe inspiring . . . (I tried not to say awesome, but he's definitely awesome). I too saw him a couple of times live. The most impressive for me, which was also some of the most impressive jazz guitar playing I've ever seen, was at one of the Five Towns College, Great American Guitar Show events. Frank, Jimmy Bruno and Ken Hatfield were sitting in a booth, possible the Buscarino booth playing. Frank and Jimmy had arch tops and Ken had his flat top. I would consider Frank's command of his instrument and jazz music to be at a level of virtuosity. If it isn't, then such a level doesn't exist. (IMHO) Originally Posted by Bflat
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Blast and damnation..! Originally Posted by JakeAcci
So that's where I'm going wrong..! I knew there was something. Thanks for the tip, Jake... 
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u...know ..this to confuses me ...ego....does the music move me ....over the rainbow makes me cry sometimes....but guitar speed does nothing to/for me.....that ego shows such insecurity ....fast notes or choice of notes.....was bach virtusistic...the word doesnt matter to me anymore ...i could care less.....I want new thinking ...i want to be moved , inspired...like...wes..coltrane ..evans ..red garland...hank garland..mjq...Bags...django...ludwig B...like words...who cares how fast somebody talks....its what there sayin that i hear ...the ideas..the concepts ..the content ...the inventiveness....my 2 cents ..who cares....fast cars ...fast woman...life in the fast lane.....kids now a-days ....where have all the flowers gone....i gave myself a headache..i gotta get an aspirin ...pirin tablets.....the show must go on....!!!
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Wait - did I miss something? The London Olympics are happening this summer. Is Guitar Racing a new event? Or as Attila Zoller - who was a virtuoso - once said to me in response to an entirely different question, "I don't know anything about all that stuff; I just play."
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