-
I think for jazz to do as you say, musicians need to incorporate modern influences. In terms of connecting with popular culture, you can't stay relevant by simply parroting what's come before you. Of course the flip side to this is that traditionalists get upset when jazz infuses any popular elements of the day.
Originally Posted by JohnRoss
As far as hip hop goes, I wouldn't call it the jazz of today but there's certainly an improvisational element to it lyrically and it is much more representative of mainstream youth culture (for better or for worse) than jazz is. I know there is a lot of love for jazz music amongst the hip hop community which is why I think it can work so well when the two are combined.
I do see your point about some modern jazz being more introspective but I don't think it's fair to solely blame the musicians for jazz's lack of popularity. There was a great quote in "Icons Among Us" where one critic says (and I'm paraphrasing) that some of the best jazz ever is being made today and there's nobody listening. He makes the case that jazz needs to find a way to connect culturally like it once did. The challenge though is that hip hop and other forms of music have taken up that mantle.
I think Glasper is on point with this commentary but I'm sure plenty of others would disagree. I love old school jazz btw but I prefer to hear younger jazz artists doing original music when I go out to hear them.
Last edited by Jazzpunk; 05-09-2012 at 09:13 PM.
-
05-09-2012 09:00 PM
-
Jazz has gone the way that a lot of fashion seems to be going. Rather than dressing to impress the opposite sex, men and women are dressing to impress their peers, which is really missing the point. Same thing with music: if jazz is going to make a comeback, we're going to have to start playing for regular audiences and not the exclusive community of jazz fans.
I actually listen to quite a bit of New Orleans jazz that's influenced by hip-hop, funk, et al. If jazz is ever going to attempt the same level of popularity, I think this is where it's going to come from. As my sister says, "This is how you need to introduce non-musicians to jazz."
Also, my experience in marching band has taught me that electropop music is meant for brass and percussion, not synthesizers. I hate listening to stuff like this on the radio, but I love playing it.
-
I think it just evolved. Jazz today is extremely sofisticated and complex which off course turns off the vast majority of people. Just listening to it actually requieres some effort.
But isn't that why we love it so much
Personally I find pre-50's jazz to be very boring. But that's just me...
-
The rise and fall of jazz a popular music is the embodiment an ancient fertility rite known as Rex Nemorensis. Ritual murder is the subconscious dynamic.
Those trees in whose dim shadow
The ghastly priest doth reign
The priest who slew the slayer,
And shall himself be slain.
Jazz is only part of a much bigger play.
-
"What happened to jazz?"
Too complex. Too detached. Audience can't sing along, nor hum it in the car (bus, subway) on the way home after the show.
Heck, we do it to ourselves and our fellow musicians. How many jazz teachers begin their lesson plan like boot camp, rather than with musicality?
"Rookies, listen up! Learn this chord (or scale or or run) in *every* key in *every* position on the fretboard! Then we'll learn something else arcane in every key." Rather than, "Welcome aboard. Today we're gonna learn how to play a song, and the fundamentals we learn in that song will be applied and expanded on in our next song, and then the next song, and so on. Next month, I'll show you how to do 'em all in a second key and your assignment will be to play 'em in a third key. Then we'll add in some new fills, turnarounds and improvs."
Jazz can be more like calisthenics than play - a point not lost on the audience.
-
I'm genuinely surprised at how many people here--on a jazz board--don't seem to like jazz.
-
I sometimes visit the Income Tax forum. I'm not overly fond of Income Tax, though...
Just sayin'...
-
Ha-ha! Busted! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
But I interpret the OP's question as why jazz ain't "it" anymore, like it used to be. Probably for the same reason it's nearly impossible to find a new car without a navi system.
Hey, here's a new thread: "Why is Jazz still so cool after all these years?"
Because it isn't mass-market.
Because it takes us "outside".
Because, it's just, well, cool, Man.
-
Not fair. We're only answering the original question posted, which was 'What happened to jazz (to make it less popular than in its beginnings)?" And seeing faults in something doesn't mean you don't like it, it's just being realistic, like telling your significant other that what she wants to wear doesn't suit her. When I refer to jazz having become introspective, that doesn't mean I don't appreciate it, it means that's one reason why it doesn't connect with a bigger public (the same happens with lots of art music, things like flamenco). When BenThayer says 'jazz is too complex, too detached,' I'm pretty sure he means 'for most people,' not for him or the rest of us here. Plus, he has a valid point, jazz teaching often concentrates on technical abilities over musical ones, or seems to, I think most of us have seen that. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
Trombone Shorty is great. He's on a track from the film "Re:Generation" which chronicles 5 DJ's challenged with the task of recording and remixing live musicians outside of their normal genres. Originally Posted by Atticus
The footage with Mark Ronson in the studio in New Orleans with Shorty, Zigaboo Modeliste and Erykah Badu was my favorite part of the film. I think his track came out pretty cool to:
-
I shoulda put a smiley after my post...ben took it more in the way it was intended...
-
Ah, sorry, been away. I should have spotted the irony in that "genuinely" surprised. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
You never know... I play some cool gigs for big $... the best gigs, and then there are the great long and late gigs for almost nothing.
I played at a Macy's a couple of weeks ago, afternoon, straight ahead jazz. Great $ ... Guitar, bass and sax.
I just figured I was going to show most of the people what jazz can be... Played some standards, beautiful and very easy to listen to, lots of octaves and basically somewhat straight harmonic approaches.
Then decided to start showing what can be done with a guitar... yea involved playing lots of notes, lots of energy. The kind of playing most musicians bitch about... but not many can pull it off. I can play lots of notes and it doesn't really feel that busy.
Anyway here I am playing at a Macy's... on a Sat. afternoon, that almost hurts. But suddenly we have a crowd... people are clapping and hangin... want to know where we're playin next...
I don't expect audiences to like jazz... I give them reasons to appreciate the music. I can cover the groove and don't mind doing so.
The Blue Note 70's funk jazz ... still gets young people excited. You do need to be able to cover, not just get through the tunes.
How many gigs do you guys go to, I try and go to as many of my friends gigs as I can. And when friends from out of the area are in town, I try and catch at least a set... Same thing when I travel, I try and support jazz, I like the music and have a great time checking out other musicians.
Reg
-
I go out to see live jazz all the time. I guess that's why I'm not wondering what happened to it. Originally Posted by Reg
-
There is a lot of truth in this. Originally Posted by BenThayer
I've always had fairly well rounded musical tastes, but only recently really started to dive into jazz music. I had a few classic albums, a few best of albums, went to the occasional concert, but that was about it. Jazz was quite hit or miss for me previously, but I never really questioned why - it's just personal taste, right? As I explore more, my tastes in jazz music are expanding, and I'm enjoying jazz I previously didn't much care for.
In retrospect, I think the key aspect for whether I liked jazz before was the complexity. If there wasn't a melody I could latch onto, I wasn't interested. This is still largely true, but my appreciation for more subtle nuances has expanded, both with more listening and my guitar playing studies. It seems to me that newer jazz tends to be more complex, and the general public isn't going to put in the effort to acquire the taste.
A common theme I encounter when talking to more experienced jazz musicians is a never ending drive to see how far they can push a standard in different directions. They are tired of hearing the same thing and want some variety. I totally understand, but the problem is that the audience isn't coming from the same place and might actually appreciate a little more faithfulness to the original. Other musicians might be commenting on how hip a complex take on a standard is, meanwhile the rest of the audience (if it's not all fellow musicians) was lost and didn't recognize the tune.
Which leads me to wonder - why don't experienced jazz musicians play something new if they're so tired of standards? If they're feeling pressured to play what the audience expects to hear, why bother if they're not going to play the standards in such a way the audience will recognize them and connect with them?
Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to criticize anyone. Just explaining the perspective of someone who isn't as far along in his jazz journey, you know, before I too am sick of the standards! (Though I'm in no danger of that anytime soon)
-
Since the 50's, jazz has a gotten a bad reputation with outsiders. While we who love it in all it's forms know that it can scratch every musical itch, outsiders have been scared away by the jazz police, who insist that it has to scratch a specific itch to be jazz. People believed them.
Jazz is a lonely pursuit, I wish it was easier to share with more people. In today's complex world, you'd think that jazz would be more relevant to the public.
What happens when the young folks exposed to mainstream hip hop as babies turn to jazz as a way to expand on the rhythm and soundtrack of their young lives? Are these kids on the right track?
-
Can't speak about today's young folks, when I was at music school thirty years ago they didn't so much turn to it as have it thrust upon them. By that I mean those on the performing arts side (as opposed to us on the classical side) were not hellbent on becoming jazz players, they wanted to become good enough to earn a living out of music, most of them were aspiring rock artists, quite a few of them working players already. But (as far as I could tell) the teachers mostly taught as though it were a jazz course, probably because it was the most direct way of giving the students a maximum of musical resources in the shortest time. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
-
Jazz developed standards, as in the great american song book. Lots of cover tunes and cover versions. But we haven't kept the catalogue up! We are still playing songs 50 to 100 years old. These songs, their lyrics don't resonate with the current times. When Jazz musicians play currently popular songs its like they are selling out.
You can't attract people with something they don't want. The SONGS that got me interested in Jazz were mainly Wes Montgomery playing pop tunes, Windy, Outta My Head, and Elanore Rigby in particular. I knew those songs and was amazed by how they could be transformed.
If you want Jazz to become "Radio Popular" again, particularly with young people, "jazzify" the songs the're listening to. As long as the music appears esoteric it won't be worth most people taking the time to discover its not.
-
Originally Posted by JohnRoss
sure. most universities can't offer too much in the way of rock or pop, at least for an entire 4 year degree. there isn't enough to the music to justify a college degree at an accredited Uni. in the USA (very simple form, very simple melodies, very simple rhythm, very simple harmonic practices).
combined with the fact that kids are less interested in and aware of classical music as time marches forward, i believe that is why you see more jazz courses, programs and degrees being offered at the university level.
jazz meets the test of offering a full curriculum. of course many will tell you that you don't need to go to college to learn jazz. while that is certainly true of jazz (or classical), the better schools can assist a young player or composer immensely.
-
What really happened to jazz is this:
One morning Jazz woke up w/a hangover but still had to go to work because it was on the last of its verbal warnings & didn't want to risk getting written up. On the way in, it stopped at a cafe to get a latte & there met a really cute barrista. Jazz felt the only way to woo such a bonnie lass was to shave & shower, & offer some sort of legitimacy & stability in a relationship. So that was the second step after going to work & not calling in sick (again).
Jazz & this girl ended up getting married & having kids; then the mortgage came, & braces & piano lessons (Jazz was unable to teach his own kids since they never took him seriously).
After a while Jazz started getting together w/other friends who played as a hobby, even though they weren't that great of musicians, let alone jazz players. Then the opportunity for a few weekend gigs came up.
So now Jazz leafs through a bunch of Real Books & plays Autumn Leaves & other covers w/a bassist who wears it low, a scratchy sax player & a drummer who won't use brushes.
He wants to start drinking again.
-
Pretty much this. +1 to his signature. Originally Posted by Dark Star
-
Pretty much spot on ... and really well written. Originally Posted by Dark Star
-
This is how I personally feel about jazz music, as told by a giant bassist and composer. Mingus said it best. Is it still like this?
-
Here's the one with Mingus doing the narration, from "Tijuana Moods". Originally Posted by NSJ
Who knows "what happened to jazz?" Just play what you like and don't let it bother you. "My RECORD MACHINE IS IN THE PAWNSHOP..." F---ing CLASSIC!!
Last edited by paynow; 05-13-2012 at 01:14 PM.
-
I agree with robertm2000, reg, jazzpunk, and Mr. B.
Jazz is just fine, and should be happy that it survived. A lot of music didn't.
Reply With Quote
Secret to McCoy Tyner pentatonics Using forward...
Today, 09:41 AM in Improvisation