Questions about Practice routine!

**bfgkim** · 02-18-2012, 05:39 AM

Hi, Guys!
I have been playing a guitar for four years. However, I barely practiced for almost six months... Yeah, I know... I shouldn't have done that...
I used to take lesson with Jazz guitar instructors in high school.
Now, I am in college now, and try to teach myself.
Since I came to college, I kinda stopped playing guitar, and two days ago, I started practicing. I decide to practice 3 hours everyday.
My routine starts with an hour of playing scales and arpeggios with metronome. Next is an hour of playing materials from the book, "Complete Guitar Improvisation" by Vincent Bredice, The last is an hour of studying licks from books of Ted Greene, Pat Martino, Mick Goodrick, Joe Diorio and etc... and do some improvisation, transcribe, and learn some tunes...
For scales and arpeggio's parts, nowadays, I am playing major scales and arpeggios in every positions starting from chord tones. Since it takes little long time. I do 3 keys of major scales and arpeggios each day. I play scales and arpeggios starting from 100 and til 208 in quarter note. So, I play scales and arpeggios in eighth note. And there's a problem here. After 208, I can't really go up... I am not sure how fast is really "fast"... When I finish all these major scales, I am planning to do different scales with same methods...
For the Vincent Bredice book part, I select five pages and practice them until I can play them til 208 in metronome too.
For the licks and improv parts, I try to play licks, songs, and solos til I can reach 208 in metronome.
However, when I practice, I started questioning myself with routines.
I am not sure if I should keep using Vincent Bredice book. It has great fingerboard exercises. However, I feel like I am concentrating on practicing techniques rather than learning jazz vocabulary. My jazz improv isn't that good. And I would like to improve my jazz solos. However, here's a dilemma... I don't think I have a good enough techniques. The maximum speed I can play is 208 in quarter note and that's about it... I think I should be able to pick and play faster too... Yeah, I know... Playing fast is not everything... But I think it's important to know how to play fast in time too...
Do you guys have any suggestions about my practice routines? Should I keep using Vincent Bredice's book or stop using it and focusing more on learning licks, transcribing, and learning tunes...?
Sorry for the long writing... Also, I apologize to you guys with my horrible writing skills. I am a Korean. Although, I have studied in America for five years now, I am still not perfect at writing English yet...
If you guys can help me out, I will be really appreciated for helps!
Thanks!!!

**ruiner54** · 02-18-2012, 08:29 AM

Well, I am going to take a stab here and say that not ALL jazz is about speed. If you want to play bebop then yeah you need to be fast. I myself am not that fast yet either, but my teacher gives me exercises similar to what you are doing (maybe not as strenuous). I do the exercises on my own and when we have a lesson, he teaches me the vocabulary and jazz stuff. SO that way I get to do both simultaneously.

I hope to be able to play bop at some point as well once I get faster, but for now I just focus on the vocab and techniques.

I asked my instructor about playing bop and he said there are plenty of jazz musicians that can't do it well.

Sorry, I know it's not advice but I hope that helps a bit. From the sound of it, you are plenty fast right now to start learning jazz.

I am kind of paraphrasing here, but I think the idea with jazz is sometimes not how many notes you play or how fast you play them.....but HOW you play them...get that swing.

Take a look at Miles Davis....he does a lot with less.

**fep** · 02-18-2012, 09:45 AM

The big thing missing:

Where are the songs in your practice routine? My advice is to spend more time practicing tunes than anything else you are doing. Imo, at least half your practice should involve tunes.

You said quarter notes at 208bpm, are you sure you didn't mean eighth notes?

Are you using alternating picking?

If it is truly at quarter notes at 208 bpm, and given that you have been playing more than four years, you do need to work on your technique.

Try playing eighth notes and cut your bpm in half, it gets pretty hard to tap your foot at 208 bpm. Use alternating picking. Practice slowly focusing on correct technique. Include practicing small phrases as part of your practice, like 5 note phrases. Like this for example:

-5-7-8-7-5-----5-7-8-7-5-----6-8-9-8-6-----6-8-9-8-6--etc. moving up one fret each time
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------

For that example play on these beats 1 & 2 & 3 (4) 1 & 2 & 3 (4) etc., use alternating picking. Try the same pattern on all strings. Make up your own patterns. Also make up patterns twice as long as that one.

I also think you don't want to practice picking technique to long, certainly not more than 1/2 hour, for me I wouldn't do it more than 15 minutes. But when playing tunes and arps etc. try to always use good technique.

You might want to post a video clearly showing your technique. Folks here will evaluate your technique for you.

Search on this site, forum members have posted lots of exercises.

**pierre richard** · 02-18-2012, 10:56 AM

Play easier tunes first...even just two two chords ( So What---Imperssions--)

Gives you time to explore the entire fingerboard with riffs..scale patterns and such...and do use rhythmic variation in your patterns an riffs...don't forget a 1/8 or 1/4 rest here and there for expression..

Jazz Guitar Lines and Jazz Guitar Workshop are two books I have by Vincent...good stuff...

Mechanisims over the entire fingerboard is the first 10 minutes of my practice routine..develops articulation and smoothness in your playing..

Take small its of new material (10-20 min) get it ingrained in your mind and fingers...the journey is more fullfilling than the destination...take your time and learn well..

Time on the instrument...pierre

**ruiner54** · 02-18-2012, 11:36 AM

My first two songs were "Autumn Leaves" (super easy), then "All the Things You Are" (bit longer bit still very doable), then as mentioned above "So What".

Also, "How How the Moon", but I got very bored playing that one..

**bfgkim** · 02-18-2012, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by ruiner54

Well, I am going to take a stab here and say that not ALL jazz is about speed. If you want to play bebop then yeah you need to be fast. I myself am not that fast yet either, but my teacher gives me exercises similar to what you are doing (maybe not as strenuous). I do the exercises on my own and when we have a lesson, he teaches me the vocabulary and jazz stuff. SO that way I get to do both simultaneously.

I hope to be able to play bop at some point as well once I get faster, but for now I just focus on the vocab and techniques.

I asked my instructor about playing bop and he said there are plenty of jazz musicians that can't do it well.

Sorry, I know it's not advice but I hope that helps a bit. From the sound of it, you are plenty fast right now to start learning jazz.

I am kind of paraphrasing here, but I think the idea with jazz is sometimes not how many notes you play or how fast you play them.....but HOW you play them...get that swing.

Take a look at Miles Davis....he does a lot with less.

Yes, I agree with you! Jazz is not about playing many notes as possible. Thanks for your advice!

**bfgkim** · 02-18-2012, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by fep

The big thing missing:

Where are the songs in your practice routine? My advice is to spend more time practicing tunes than anything else you are doing. Imo, at least half your practice should involve tunes.

You said quarter notes at 208bpm, are you sure you didn't mean eighth notes?

Are you using alternating picking?

If it is truly at quarter notes at 208 bpm, and given that you have been playing more than four years, you do need to work on your technique.

Try playing eighth notes and cut your bpm in half, it gets pretty hard to tap your foot at 208 bpm. Use alternating picking. Practice slowly focusing on correct technique. Include practicing small phrases as part of your practice, like 5 note phrases. Like this for example:

-5-7-8-7-5-----5-7-8-7-5-----6-8-9-8-6-----6-8-9-8-6--etc. moving up one fret each time
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------

For that example play on these beats 1 & 2 & 3 (4) 1 & 2 & 3 (4) etc., use alternating picking. Try the same pattern on all strings. Make up your own patterns. Also make up patterns twice as long as that one.

I also think you don't want to practice picking technique to long, certainly not more than 1/2 hour, for me I wouldn't do it more than 15 minutes. But when playing tunes and arps etc. try to always use good technique.

You might want to post a video clearly showing your technique. Folks here will evaluate your technique for you.

Search on this site, forum members have posted lots of exercises.

Yes, I am using alternate picking and I pick two notes per beat. So should that be eighth note? Sorry, I am not clear on it... I will try to rearrange the time for routines with your advice. Do you think I should be working on improving technique more though? Also, for learning tunes, how do you work on it? Do you just memorize chord progressions and melodies and play solos on it. Or do you study tunes in details such as playing scales and arpeggios each chords, and transcribe solos for the tuens and stuffs?

**fep** · 02-18-2012, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by bfgkim

Yes, I am using alternate picking and I pick two notes per beat. So should that be eighth note? Sorry, I am not clear on it... I will try to rearrange the time for routines with your advice. Do you think I should be working on improving technique more though? Also, for learning tunes, how do you work on it? Do you just memorize chord progressions and melodies and play solos on it. Or do you study tunes in details such as playing scales and arpeggios each chords, and transcribe solos for the tuens and stuffs?

Yes that is eighth notes, which is twice as fast as you originally said. That is fast enough to play most jazz tunes and bebop tunes will sound good at that tempo.

So, I'm not concerned about your technique or your speed anymore. Just let your speed increase over time and don't get worried about it. Play and learn lots of songs.

And yes, it is a good idea to play scales and arpeggios for the chords of a tune, that way you are learning tunes and practicing scales and arpeggios at the same time. I don't think you need to do transcriptions for all the tunes you learn. But including transcriptions as part of your routine is a good idea. I try to spend some time transcribing every week.

Also, try to learn tunes not as for example Cmaj7 Am7 Dm7 G7 but as Imaj7 VIm7 IIm7 V7. Try to learn those relationships and see how common some of them are in jazz tunes. That will help you train your ear to hear common progressions.

**bfgkim** · 02-18-2012, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by fep

Yes that is eighth notes, which is twice as fast as you originally said. That is fast enough to play most jazz tunes and bebop tunes will sound good at that tempo.

So, I'm not concerned about your technique or your speed anymore. Just let your speed increase over time and don't get worried about it. Play and learn lots of songs.

And yes, it is a good idea to play scales and arpeggios for the chords of a tune, that way you are learning tunes and practicing scales and arpeggios at the same time. I don't think you need to do transcriptions for all the tunes you learn. But including transcriptions as part of your routine is a good idea. I try to spend some time transcribing every week.

Also, try to learn tunes not as for example Cmaj7 Am7 Dm7 G7 but as Imaj7 VIm7 IIm7 V7. Try to learn those relationships and see how common some of them are in jazz tunes. That will help you train your ear to hear common progressions.

Thank you so much for your advice! It was really helpful!

**bfgkim** · 02-18-2012, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by pierre richard

Play easier tunes first...even just two two chords ( So What---Imperssions--)

Gives you time to explore the entire fingerboard with riffs..scale patterns and such...and do use rhythmic variation in your patterns an riffs...don't forget a 1/8 or 1/4 rest here and there for expression..

Jazz Guitar Lines and Jazz Guitar Workshop are two books I have by Vincent...good stuff...

Mechanisims over the entire fingerboard is the first 10 minutes of my practice routine..develops articulation and smoothness in your playing..

Take small its of new material (10-20 min) get it ingrained in your mind and fingers...the journey is more fullfilling than the destination...take your time and learn well..

Time on the instrument...pierre

Thanks so much for your advice!

**Extrapolation** · 02-18-2012, 03:06 PM

I picked this up from a Howard Roberts book; it's incredibly useful for technique and improvisation.

Take a tune you like. If you're not familiar with the basic forms like 12 bar blues or rhythm changes, pick a tune you like that uses those (say, "Straight, No Chaser" for blues or "Oleo" for rhythm changes).

Record yourself playing the chords for ten minutes straight (no interesting rhythm, just straight forward), then solo over the changes playing non-stop eighth notes for ten minutes. Repeat this twice. Rest for two minutes in-between every ten minute session. Comes out to 50 minutes in total. Start slowly, so you can really follow the changes and play cleanly. Gradually raise the tempo week to week, as well as doing some days of straight triplets, sixteenths, etc. once you get your chops up.

This is my favorite way to practice as not only do you get really great chops practice, but you learn your favorite tunes and develop your own individual voice. Hope this helps

**Patrick2** · 02-18-2012, 03:16 PM

fep . . . spot on advice!! Where the hell were you in 1980 when I needed you??

I wish I could have had access to inter net advice when I was first starting out in jazz guitar study. (but, Al Gore hadn't created the inter net yet

)

All of my gigging life, I was a lead vocalist, first and foremost, and secondly a rhythm guitarist in any band I was ever in. So I was real good at providing good, rythmic funky guitar work while singing and when the lead guitarist would blow solos . . . or when the lead player would do fill work or counter rhythms when our horns were featured. When I wanted to do some lead work in a certain song, I would always have to ask my lead player to learn it and teach it to me. I wasn't lazy . . . just musically ignorant and incompetent. It took my lead guitarist only 1 evening to learn Jay Graydon's solo in Steely Dan's tune Peg. Before I asked him to teach it to me, I tried for 3 weeks to cover it. (that was back when we were learning songs off of vinyl albums.)

When I dropped out of the band to focus on a business career, I decided that I was going to learn "the right way" and become a player. My first jazz instructor, had me learn 6 different fingerings of diatonic scales . . . only at the time he just said they were "scales". I had to learn them straight ahead, in various rhythmic sequences, in thirds, in eighth notes, then mix quarter note triplets in. Then he taught me something called modes. (what the hell is a mode??) I had no idea what the hell they were or what they were for. I had to play each in the circle of 5ths . . 4ths . . . I had to learn to harmonize scales. I had to learn triads. I had to learn different inversions of chords on the top 4 strings, then the bottom 4 strings, then the middle 4 strings. Spent hours each day woodshedding this stuff. Every week I would ask my instructor . . . when do I learn to use all this shit???? How do I apply it??? . . . His response . . . "don't get ahead of yourself, that'll come later" I learned how to play the guitar REALLY well. Great chops . .. great technique, smooth, clean, fast. I could really play the guitar very well. But, I had no idea how the hell to make music with it. Every time I sat down to play some guitar . . . I would either find myself doing scale or mode runs in no particular structure . . . or reverting back to the tunes I used to play rhythm guitar to when I was gigging. I would never sit with another guitarist to jam . . . because I didn't have any idea how to. I got so frustrated, I sold most of my gear and didn't play for some 20 years.

Started back up a few years ago with Vinny Corrao. . . then on to Bob Ferry. Ferry is a graduate of Berklee School of Music. It was like the sky opening up.

When reading that the OP was becoming bored and asking how he should practice . . . it brought back terrible memories.

Apologies for the self serving ramble . . . . just felt like I need to share that .. . . but, I have no idea why.

**SearchForMeaning** · 02-18-2012, 06:17 PM

Whoa!!! Take it easy! Years of no practicing and 3 hours? Better to have a really strong idea of progress and expectations than to jump in, get overwhelmed, impatient and quit. Find other people to play with, right away!
People can tell you what THEY think is a good routine, but each person needs different things and most importantly, has a different level of patience. There's nothing worse than guilting yourself out of making small steady progress. This is not training to be a gladiator. Know what you need and get there while having a good time.

**richard vandyne** · 02-18-2012, 08:06 PM

Bfgkim- No One Has Mentioned The Most Improtant Part. In Order To Do All Those Things You Must Be Able To Read Music Like A Deamon , I Don,t Know Your Abilities But To Do All The Things You Are Asked To Do I Think You Shoulds Be Able To Read Music In At Least 8 Keys All Over The Fretboard ,reading Music Without Having To Look At The Fretboard. If You Can Do This Your Progress Will Be 10 Times Faster Than If You Have To Fumble Around All The Time Trying To Figure Out What Comes Next.

**abraxas53** · 03-06-2012, 12:33 PM

I've been working on getting my picking speed up to the Tal Farlow range. Yes, I want to play Bop. Right now I'm stuck at 16ths at 110 bpm. My goal is 16ths at 160 bpm. I know it's lofty but I believe it's doable with a lot of work.
Any suggestions on how to get past these types of roadblocks?

Thanks

**smokinguit** · 03-07-2012, 03:39 PM

I don't know if you have Transcribe software, but if you do put some tracks of Tal Farlow in it, pick out a phrase or two, and play along with him. Start as low as 40 bpm. Increase by 5 bpm a day. Practice that one phrase with him for about 10 - 15 minutes a day to where you're in unison with him. Try to imitate him exactly, not just speedwise. Become one with him so to speak. 1 year ago I was able to do 16 notes at 120 bpm. Now I've hit 200 bpm! This is exactly what I did for a year. The players I played along with and studied are Grant Green, Wes Montgomery, George Benson, and Jim Hall. These guys took care of my speed. It was not easy but I did it. My goal in terms of developing speed even further is to continue doing what I've been do last year.

**abraxas53** · 03-07-2012, 04:20 PM

SmokinGuit is the right tag for you. 16ths @ 200bpm!! and you want to take it past that. Wow, my hat's off to you.
I have a program called Song Surgeon that is light years ahead of Slow Downer which I used for years. You might want to check it out, it's amazing the things it can do beside slow tempo.

I'll definetly follow your advice and give it a go.

Thanks SmokinGuit!