Guitar frustration

[Andrés_G]

Well, I'm Andrés, I'm 20 years old and have been playing for around 10 years.
I started with electric guitar 6 or 7 years ago, and until the last year I played rock, metal, etc.
One year ago I started getting into jazz, and playing standards, and started doing simple chord melodies, and also started to improvise over changes.

I always want to improve my playing, my technique, my knowledge, but now I just don't know what to do next.

I bought Mick Goodrick's ''Advancing Guitarist'', and started doing the one string stuff, and trying to learn the notes of the fretboard. I felt like I had learned them, but as soon as I would improvise anything I would forget them, and start thinking like if playing in C major or A minor regardless of the key I was, so it became useless to me to know all the notes, because I could only apply that knowledge if I was on C major or A minor. Then I got frustrated, and left the book (hopefully momentarily).

Then I bought Jazzology and Mark Levine's Jazz Theory Book, and I am trying to study Jazzology first and try to take my time with each topic, but it just seems very hard to do.

Also, I have been playing with a great bass player, a true jazzist, and taken harmony and improvisation lessons with him, but when I start my solo I just feel it is boring, with no structure, no sense, I just play to don't sound bad, and I'm not really like ''telling a story''.
And when I'm comping, I use standard shapes, and there's really no voice leading, just jumping around the fretboard to shapes I know. Unless I actually learn a comping for each song I play, then It might sound good, but otherwise it is not.

I also have wanted to learn the melodic scale and its modes for about a year, but I just can't, I love the sound of that scale, and well, I could learn the patterns, but when improvising I just can't switch to that scale and play with it, It has to be a previously learned lick.
It is just too much scales, fingerings, chords, arpeggios, keys! ''Play the following example in all keys'' I read everywhere, and if I do I'm just moving the pattern and feel it is useless...

I know I have great books, I have a good amp, a good guitar, I have time, but I just can't be as good as I'd like, and I don't want to become a mediocre player. This forum is inspiring, lots of great guitarists everywhere, and most of them willing to help others... In my city there is not a single jazz guitar teacher I could ask for lessons, or even a jazz guitarist I could learn from.

So, If you felt like me in your guitar journey, maybe you know what I have to do next, or at least have a suggestion.

Thanks.

[cosmic gumbo]

Jazz is a lifetime pursuit. Highs and lows, but I have yet to meet a true jazzer who had any real control over their compulsion to learn and play jazz. Just don't get too lazy, keep at it, and you still won't be there when you die. If you are meant to play jazz, you will have a very hard time stopping yourself.

The blues forms in jazz are a great place to start for trying to express yourself. All jazzers need to be able to play the blues.

[Jim Bastian]

It takes a long time to realize that it takes a long time.

Practice because you love the art of practicing and the sound of the guitar and to learn....the process will not be forced.

You've only been at this a year!
I am sure more writers will have many good things to say....but I have thought of a few.

Brian Kane's book CONSTRUCTING MELODIC JAZZ IMPROVISATION is a great first book for improvisers who don't know what to play, or how to use what they already know to play a meaningful solo.

I think that finding a good jazz guitar teacher is valuable....someone with an education, jazz performance experience, who can read music.

I feel that the most important things you can do are listen to the masters, try to learn the melodies of standard songs (by ear and/or by reading), and be involved in ear training. It seems that you feel that there is so much to work on that it is overwhelming and too slow-moving. But if you get on a path that produces some results I think you will feel better. A good teacher can help you move out of where you are at. This is a long-term commitment. Enjoy the ride!

[Andrés_G]

Jazz is a lifetime pursuit. Highs and lows, but I have yet to meet a true jazzer who had any real control over their compulsion to learn and play jazz. Just don't get too lazy, keep at it, and you still won't be there when you die. If you are meant to play jazz, you will have a very hard time stopping yourself.

The blues forms in jazz are a great place to start for trying to express yourself. All jazzers need to be able to play the blues.

Thanks a lot for your help, I will take your advice!

It takes a long time to realize that it takes a long time.

Practice because you love the art of practicing and the sound of the guitar and to learn....the process will not be forced.

You've only been at this a year!
I am sure more writers will have many good things to say....but I have thought of a few.

Brian Kane's book CONSTRUCTING MELODIC JAZZ IMPROVISATION is a great first book for improvisers who don't know what to play, or how to use what they already know to play a meaningful solo.

I think that finding a good jazz guitar teacher is valuable....someone with an education, jazz performance experience, who can read music.

I feel that the most important things you can do are listen to the masters, try to learn the melodies of standard songs (by ear and/or by reading), and be involved in ear training. It seems that you feel that there is so much to work on that it is overwhelming and too slow-moving. But if you get on a path that produces some results I think you will feel better. A good teacher can help you move out of where you are at. This is a long-term commitment. Enjoy the ride!

Thanks a lot man, I will order that book as soon as I can.
I would like to have a teacher, but there is not a single jazz guitar teacher in my city. If there was I would certainly take lessons.
I have never transcribed a record, or learned solos from other players, maybe that would be very helpful. If you know of a player or a record to start with, please tell me.
I'm just realizing that this will take lots of years, but believe me when I say that I am determined to be a jazz guitar player, and as good as I can get.

[ksjazzguitar]

Definitely don't get frustrated. I think that jazz is such a deep subject taking so much work, that if you're not at least a little disappointed in your playing - it just means that you're not setting your sights high enough.

As to using the melodic minor - if you understand the theory, then it is just application. I might suggest writing out some licks. I used to keep a notebook and I would write a new lick each day. I'd circle the good ones for study later and memorize them to get the sounds into my brain and under my fingers. If I found a good lick in transcription, I'd write it there too. I'm not saying that you should become a lick player - the point is to absorb it until it is just part of your vocabulary.

As to coming up with a coherent solo, telling a story, etc. - I think that what helped me was just to stop focusing on scales. Think of a small idea, 2-5 notes. It should mostly be chord tones, with maybe a scale tone connecting them or a chromatic note to lead into the scale. Play your idea and really listen to it. What is the next idea that answers that? Then repeat the original idea (making any adjustments needed for the chord.) Then see if you can "mess" with the idea - change it, invert it, play it backwards, or simply extend it. Break it up into little pieces and recombine them. I'm not saying that this is the only way to build a solo, but I do think that it is a fundamental skill in developing melodic material. If it is too difficult, then slow it down and make your ideas simpler. Do it rubato if you need to. Sing the ideas first and then find them on the guitar. I think that these are good techniques to get you away from just running scales.

Another idea is to compose a solo. Actually plan it out and write it down. I did this when I was learning to do chord solos. It seems artificial, but it will allow you to address some of the issues you will face in a more controlled setting.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
Kevin

[docbop]

Any hot Jazz piano or horn players study with one of them, you don't have to have guitar teacher to learn to play Music.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

I also have wanted to learn the melodic scale and its modes for about a year, but I just can't, I love the sound of that scale, a

Sounds like you might be hitting the theory before the music.

Who is your favorite soloist? Who has the sound/style/story that you feel most compelled by? What recorded solo is your favorite? What measure, what notes, what swinging riff is the one you are simply driven, at all cost of time and resource, to figure out? Start copying there. Don't worry about no books or theory for now.

[Banksia]

I agree with Kevin that if you're not a bit frustrated with your playing then you aren't aiming high enough.

I live on a farm so, if I get frustrated with playing, I just put it aside and go out and do some physical work for a while - there's always some crappy task that I've been putting off. I usually find that, because it's the complete opposite of music, it clears my head - just like jogging or swimming laps.

[kris]

It is hard work to be good jazz musician!!!

[Andrés_G]

Definitely don't get frustrated. I think that jazz is such a deep subject taking so much work, that if you're not at least a little disappointed in your playing - it just means that you're not setting your sights high enough.

Yeah man, I think that is true, and I'm constantly finding myself not good enough, good thing to improve I guess.

As to using the melodic minor - if you understand the theory, then it is just application. I might suggest writing out some licks. I used to keep a notebook and I would write a new lick each day. I'd circle the good ones for study later and memorize them to get the sounds into my brain and under my fingers. If I found a good lick in transcription, I'd write it there too. I'm not saying that you should become a lick player - the point is to absorb it until it is just part of your vocabulary.

It's a good idea to do that, actually I'm starting to think that I will make a list of things to do when I practice, based on the suggestions I get, to make my practice time more efficient.

As to coming up with a coherent solo, telling a story, etc. - I think that what helped me was just to stop focusing on scales. Think of a small idea, 2-5 notes. It should mostly be chord tones, with maybe a scale tone connecting them or a chromatic note to lead into the scale. Play your idea and really listen to it. What is the next idea that answers that? Then repeat the original idea (making any adjustments needed for the chord.) Then see if you can "mess" with the idea - change it, invert it, play it backwards, or simply extend it. Break it up into little pieces and recombine them. I'm not saying that this is the only way to build a solo, but I do think that it is a fundamental skill in developing melodic material. If it is too difficult, then slow it down and make your ideas simpler. Do it rubato if you need to. Sing the ideas first and then find them on the guitar. I think that these are good techniques to get you away from just running scales.

I will try that, certainly thinking on scales sometimes makes my solos sound mechanical and not musical.

Another idea is to compose a solo. Actually plan it out and write it down. I did this when I was learning to do chord solos. It seems artificial, but it will allow you to address some of the issues you will face in a more controlled setting.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
Kevin

I have done that for some songs, and it is very helpful, because if I play another song with similar changes some of the ideas will come up, they become part of my vocabulary.
Thanks for your help!

Any hot Jazz piano or horn players study with one of them, you don't have to have guitar teacher to learn to play Music.

True, currently I am taking lessons with a bass/piano player, and I am learning a lot. But I still would rather a guitar teacher.

Sounds like you might be hitting the theory before the music.

Who is your favorite soloist? Who has the sound/style/story that you feel most compelled by? What recorded solo is your favorite? What measure, what notes, what swinging riff is the one you are simply driven, at all cost of time and resource, to figure out? Start copying there. Don't worry about no books or theory for now.

Good advice, I will start transcribing stuff. Thanks

I agree with Kevin that if you're not a bit frustrated with your playing then you aren't aiming high enough.

I live on a farm so, if I get frustrated with playing, I just put it aside and go out and do some physical work for a while - there's always some crappy task that I've been putting off. I usually find that, because it's the complete opposite of music, it clears my head - just like jogging or swimming laps.

Good thing to know, the next time I feel like getting frustrated I will go out and clear my mind, I never really do that kinda stuff, but it seems to work for a lot of people.

It is hard work to be good jazz musician!!!

Yeah man, harder than I ever tough it would be!

[fep]

Andres,

Your English is great, you write really well.

Any chance you live near SMA?

Jamie Valle, one of San Diego's best jazz guitarists, recently moved to SMA. If you're near there you should try taking lessons from him. I'd also imagine he might travel from time to time to Mexico City. Perhaps if you're between SMA and Mexico City you might get him to visit you on those trips.

Jaime Valle | SMA & San Diego, CA | Jazz / Latin Jazz / Bossa Nova | Music, Lyrics, Songs, and Videos | ReverbNation

[Andrés_G]

Andres,

Your English is great, you write really well.

Any chance you live near SMA?

Jamie Valle, one of San Diego's best jazz guitarists, recently moved to SMA. If you're near there you should try taking lessons from him. I'd also imagine he might travel from time to time to Mexico City. Perhaps if you're between SMA and Mexico City you might get him to visit you on those trips.

Jaime Valle | SMA & San Diego, CA | Jazz / Latin Jazz / Bossa Nova | Music, Lyrics, Songs, and Videos | ReverbNation

With SMA do you mean San Miguel de Allende? Because I live 1 hour away from there in car! (2:20 in bus)
And Mexico city is 2:30 hrs away! Thanks a lot! I'll try to contact him whenever possible to see if I can take lessons once at month at least, you know, the economy wouldn't allow me more than that.

[jazzbow]

And when I'm comping, I use standard shapes, and there's really no voice leading, just jumping around the fretboard to shapes I know. Unless I actually learn a comping for each song I play, then It might sound good, but otherwise it is not.

Hi Andres, I had to brush up on my comping chord work and found this book 'Swing & big band guitar' by Charlton Johnson, It's easy to grasp as there's only about 28 standard comp chord positions. The book goes further into chord theory such as drop 2 chords with explanations.
Hope this helps with your quest

[fep]

With SMA do you mean San Miguel de Allende? Because I live 1 hour away from there in car! (2:20 in bus)
And Mexico city is 2:30 hrs away! Thanks a lot! I'll try to contact him whenever possible to see if I can take lessons once at month at least, you know, the economy wouldn't allow me more than that.

I think it is San Miguel de Allende... that is what I remember, but my memory is not to good on that. He has it listed as SMA on that link I posted.

If you have trouble contacting him send me a 'pm'. I have a couple of friends that have performed with him and another friend that took lessons from him. They'll know how to contact him.

[Claudi]

And when I'm comping, I use standard shapes, and there's really no voice leading, just jumping around the fretboard to shapes I know.

Hi, Andrés and everyone.
I know you from another forum and man, you have more theory in your head than I do. But that won't last long I promise!
I've quoted this sentence of yours because I see the word shapes twice. In this forum there are lots of experienced jazzmen but I'd feel strange if I'm the only one who stopped using shapes and diagrams.
Since I play this way my understanding of jazz on the fretboard has improved considerably. I see no shapes, no chord diagrams. Got rid of them. As I talk about notes or write them on a forum it's because I think of notes. I do the same when playing. It took me a long time but that's much better than being an expert of a neverending amount of shapes and chord diagrams and also becoming an expert of relating the ones with the others and viceversa.

As they told you, one year is about nothing in jazz. I started in this forum almost 3 years ago and I improved my playing and can feel satisfied since for me it's just a hobby, but no comparison with Joe Pass or Wes Montgomery.
Ah, and use your ears.

Keep it up. The click moments come out when they're not expected.
My 2 cents.

[Andrés_G]

I think it is San Miguel de Allende... that is what I remember, but my memory is not to good on that. He has it listed as SMA on that link I posted.

If you have trouble contacting him send me a 'pm'. I have a couple of friends that have performed with him and another friend that took lessons from him. They'll know how to contact him.

Thanks man, I will contact you if I can't reach him.

[Andrés_G]

Hi, Andrés and everyone.
I know you from another forum and man, you have more theory in your head than I do. But that won't last long I promise!
I've quoted this sentence of yours because I see the word shapes twice. In this forum there are lots of experienced jazzmen but I'd feel strange if I'm the only one who stopped using shapes and diagrams.
Since I play this way my understanding of jazz on the fretboard has improved considerably. I see no shapes, no chord diagrams. Got rid of them. As I talk about notes or write them on a forum it's because I think of notes. I do the same when playing. It took me a long time but that's much better than being an expert of a neverending amount of shapes and chord diagrams and also becoming an expert of relating the ones with the others and viceversa.

As they told you, one year is about nothing in jazz. I started in this forum almost 3 years ago and I improved my playing and can feel satisfied since for me it's just a hobby, but no comparison with Joe Pass or Wes Montgomery.
Ah, and use your ears.

Keep it up. The click moments come out when they're not expected.
My 2 cents.

It will last long, because I will die before I stop learning as much theory as I can
I sincerely think that you can not forget the shapes when comping, specially at fast tempos, because you would have to think about three or four intervals, relate them to notes depending on the chord, find them on the fretboard, find the possible voicing, make a mental fingering, and play them. All of this in less than a second. For single string playing I think it is possible this kind of approach, but as for comping, every guitarist I know depends on shapes.
Thanks for your words, I'll keep it up.

Hi Andres, I had to brush up on my comping chord work and found this book 'Swing & big band guitar' by Charlton Johnson, It's easy to grasp as there's only about 28 standard comp chord positions. The book goes further into chord theory such as drop 2 chords with explanations.
Hope this helps with your quest

Hey man, I will look for that book, thanks for your help.

[Reg]

If it was easy... everyone would be great... You need a long range plan with goals and check points... developing skills is very mechanical, boring etc... Have real expectations. Try and have fun playing and if your like many musicians... developing playing skills becomes fun also... If You want help putting a lesson plan together... I'll gladly help, but need to hear or see you play... doesn't really matter what, I have a good ear. Would help to also know where or what you want to do with music... Reg

[Claudi]

I sincerely think that you can not forget the shapes when comping, specially at fast tempos, because you would have to think about three or four intervals, relate them to notes depending on the chord, find them on the fretboard, find the possible voicing, make a mental fingering, and play them. All of this in less than a second. For single string playing I think it is possible this kind of approach, but as for comping, every guitarist I know depends on shapes.
Thanks for your words, I'll keep it up.

Everything I underlined is what I'm working on. Believe me, it's possible. It's only a matter of getting used to it but I won't pick on the way that most guitarists use to play since I don't forget I've been playing like that for so many years. It's just my way now to see the guitar when playing and I'm happy with it. Speed? Yeah, I'll get it with time...I guess!

[Blue(s) Skies]

Hey there to everyone!

I've been playing the guitar for 3 to 4 years now and I can say that I've got great fun doing jazz. I have to say that I didn't know jazz really one and a half years ago but my guitar teacher asked me if I would want to play in a little jazz combo and I agreed - which was a very good decision. I am just 16 years old and I don't know a lot about improvising - only the pentatonic scales so far. I don't always now what to play but I just try out everything - other rhythms, chord notes, a lot of different stuff and when I imrovise I always use my ears and don't look at the notes, at least not yet.

I would recommend buying Band in a Box for example or just taking songs and trying to play a lead guitar over the songs, or trying to figure out the melody and variate it when improvising.

I personally think that it's great fun to just take a song you like and figure out notes you can play over it that sound cool, playing to "backing tracks or jamtracks" is I think very important and often you stumble over a great lick you've made up yourself. I might not be the most experienced player,
but all that matters sometimes is fun and the passion to feel the music in my opinion.

Some hints, if you like them:

Take a chord and play the 7, the 5 and the 3 over them, every time a different one, that gives you a feeling how they change the athmosphere.

I don't know if you like Blues but Freddie the Freeloader is a very simple song, it's not complicated but still it's that cool atmosphere that makes everyone listen to it.

I would recommend to you to don't think about whether your improvisation is complicated, you're playing like a virtuoso, I would just work at the feeling of each note, and don't stop playing!

Hope this helps,

Blue(s) Skies!

[frogeye]

I know I have great books, I have a good amp, a good guitar, I have time, but I just can't be as good as I'd like, and I don't want to become a mediocre player.

So, If you felt like me in your guitar journey, maybe you know what I have to do next, or at least have a suggestion.

Hello Andres,

• Since you have time use some (well, plenty..) of it to listen to the great players and start transcribing their solos. You rather become a great jazz player by using your ears than using your hands (I didn't come up with that line...) Learning some of their lines through your ears will provide you with better understanding on how to apply musical concepts to real tunes that no book can teach you IMHO.
• A good teacher would certainly help. I understand that there aren't any readily available to you in your hometown. You may want to check out the online academy offerings like Jimmy Bruno, or Martin Taylor, These are subscription based sites. I've been subscribed to one and I do like it and prefer it to learn from books only. However, it is not everybody's cup of tea and it certainly doesn't replace a good teacher ( I 'm taking guitar lessons with a teacher every 2 weeks).

Take care

[Andrés_G]

If it was easy... everyone would be great... You need a long range plan with goals and check points... developing skills is very mechanical, boring etc... Have real expectations. Try and have fun playing and if your like many musicians... developing playing skills becomes fun also... If You want help putting a lesson plan together... I'll gladly help, but need to hear or see you play... doesn't really matter what, I have a good ear. Would help to also know where or what you want to do with music... Reg

Thanks a lot Reg, for things like this each day I'm more convinced that jazz musicians are always willing to help, to share a hint. I'll let you know when I record something (it will be soon!) so you can give me your advice, I know you are among the most experienced players in the forum, and I really appreciate your willing to help.

Hey there to everyone!

I've been playing the guitar for 3 to 4 years now and I can say that I've got great fun doing jazz. I have to say that I didn't know jazz really one and a half years ago but my guitar teacher asked me if I would want to play in a little jazz combo and I agreed - which was a very good decision. I am just 16 years old and I don't know a lot about improvising - only the pentatonic scales so far. I don't always now what to play but I just try out everything - other rhythms, chord notes, a lot of different stuff and when I imrovise I always use my ears and don't look at the notes, at least not yet.

I would recommend buying Band in a Box for example or just taking songs and trying to play a lead guitar over the songs, or trying to figure out the melody and variate it when improvising.

I personally think that it's great fun to just take a song you like and figure out notes you can play over it that sound cool, playing to "backing tracks or jamtracks" is I think very important and often you stumble over a great lick you've made up yourself. I might not be the most experienced player,
but all that matters sometimes is fun and the passion to feel the music in my opinion.

Some hints, if you like them:

Take a chord and play the 7, the 5 and the 3 over them, every time a different one, that gives you a feeling how they change the athmosphere.

I don't know if you like Blues but Freddie the Freeloader is a very simple song, it's not complicated but still it's that cool atmosphere that makes everyone listen to it.

I would recommend to you to don't think about whether your improvisation is complicated, you're playing like a virtuoso, I would just work at the feeling of each note, and don't stop playing!

Hope this helps,

Blue(s) Skies!

Hello, I have Band in a Box and it is a great tool, also I agree on the importance of improvising and learning songs, thanks a lot for your words.

Hello Andres,

• Since you have time use some (well, plenty..) of it to listen to the great players and start transcribing their solos. You rather become a great jazz player by using your ears than using your hands (I didn't come up with that line...) Learning some of their lines through your ears will provide you with better understanding on how to apply musical concepts to real tunes that no book can teach you IMHO.
• A good teacher would certainly help. I understand that there aren't any readily available to you in your hometown. You may want to check out the online academy offerings like Jimmy Bruno, or Martin Taylor, These are subscription based sites. I've been subscribed to one and I do like it and prefer it to learn from books only. However, it is not everybody's cup of tea and it certainly doesn't replace a good teacher ( I 'm taking guitar lessons with a teacher every 2 weeks).

Take care

Thanks a lot! You're right, actually I already started doing some transcribing, perhaps I will upload any work that can be useful to the forum. Miles Davis for starting
I am very curious about Jimmy Bruno's website, and maybe sometime soon I will pay a subscription, but for the moment I have to come up with a plan with all the ideas I got from you guys, and maybe contact Jaime Valle to schedule some lessons.
thanks a lot

[Modalguru]

Hi,

many guitarists starting with jazz on their own go through the following process:
They buy a book or two and start working, learning some theory, too. After a couple of month they think that their improvisation sounds just like scale-exercises. So there has to be something wrong with the method and another book and/or DVD ist required. But it's the same with the new book, they work through one or two chapters only to become disappointed again and throw the new book in the corner, too. After two years they have spent the amount of a decent guitar for books and still don't sound much better.

The bad news: there is no single method on the market that will teach you all of jazz

The good news: by designing your own way you will develop your own style.

You said, you've learned the shapes of the melodic minor scale but can not appy it to the chords. Well, then you just rushed through the material and did not internalize it. Take one shape and practice it in all keys by shifting that pattern up and down the neck. Only when you can do this without mistakes, move on to the next pattern. You have to take your time, although there is so much to learn.

Take easy songs like "Mack the Knife", "All of Me", etc and analyse the tunes, where are chord progressions in the songs you know (like ii-V-I), which scales fit the other chords? What chord substitution do you know? Compose two or three solo-chorusses, then improvise. Search for recorded versions you like, transcribe some licks, try to copy the phrasing of the musicians in your own solos. Don't be afraid of making mistakes, you learn the most out of mistakes.

Two tipps for DVDs:
Emily Remler: Bebop and Swing Guitar
John Pizarrelli: Exploring Jazz Guitar

These two volumes will tell you what to focus on, reduce the complexity a bit and will give motivation. Derive your own exercise from them. Write down a schedule for practising. Don't put too much topics into that schedule. With each practise-session you have to go through the whole schedule. Practising one topic only once a week is useless.

And don't forget: in jazz, the jorney is its own reward...

Cheers, Chris

[kris]

Do not forget about special jazz feel,swing,etc.
Somebody said:
"If you do not play and feel easy blues you will not play jazz"
Best
Kris