notating 7/4 and 4/7 chords

[Christian Miller]

On a simpler level I have a quandary whether to teach US (German derived) or English note duration names for instance.

I think the US/German system is better, simpler and also can allow you to teach fractions, which has pedagogical value. Also the vast majority of books for jazz/rock/pop etc use the US system, even where they are not written by Americans.

On the other hand all classical musicians on the UK still use ‘semibreve, minim, crotchet, quaver etc’ so to operate in the mainstream music education environment they need to know those names*. They are also for some reason taught on the national curriculum (why?)

So I sort of muddle through. I use them interchangeably when I’m not thinking which probably confuses everyone haha.

See also measures/bars, pickup/anacrusis etc

* I was watching an interview with Vai and Satriani, and Satch surprised me by referencing ‘hemi-Demi-semi-quavers’ which made me wonder if some Americans learn the English note names.

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[Mick-7]

https://fmcb.com.br/wp-content/uploa...Som-FMCB-4.pdf

This url has some samples in Hermeto's handwriting. I also turned up a dissertation which explains his system, which is complicated and may have evolved over time.

I will only say that I would hate to work for someone who is that anal (or at least appears to be) about the chord voicings he wants. Jazz is improvised music, if he wants his compositions played a specific way, let him hire a chamber ensemble.

[rpjazzguitar]

Fantasy mode ON:

I've thought about what I would design instead of current chord symbols if I was starting from scratch.

How about this:

A grid of 3 rows and four columns gives 12 cells, reflecting the chromatic scale.

So, for simple chords you put x's in the cells for the notes you want.

More complicated chords are harder.

Say, lower left contains a Root written out as a letter. If there's a line through it it's the root, but the voicing is played rootless.

If there's a line though it you play as if it was a bass note in a slash chord.

Arrows up or down could reflect which octave to play note in. There might be an octave symbol to position the entire grid in a particular octave.

Humans are good at pattern recognition, so the system might not be so hard to learn. Although it would be harder for the rank beginner than learning "this finger here is C and strum these three strings.That's a C chord"

Fantasy mode OFF.

[Christian Miller]

I will only say that I would hate to work for someone who is that anal (or at least appears to be) about the chord voicings he wants. Jazz is improvised music, if he wants his compositions played a specific way, let him hire a chamber ensemble.

It’s ok they wouldn’t hire you haha

I think a chamber ensemble would struggle with the rhythmic aspect of Hermeto’s music lol. I mean, they’d play the right pitches.

I know it’s hard to believe, but learning to play the right notes in someone’s original music or an arrangement is an important skill in jazz. Not everything is improvised.


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[Mick-7]

I know it’s hard to believe, but learning to play the right notes in someone’s original music or an arrangement is an important skill in jazz. Not everything is improvised.

Yes, I realize that, I've had such gigs, however they never told me, "play these chord voicings exactly as written" - if that is what he demands?

[rpjazzguitar]

When I write, I often put in the exact voicing I want. So I write it out on a stem. I just posted about some of issues involved in getting the voicing played.

To my ear, the song requires a specific voicing and, if I don't hear it, the song feels wrong.

Recently, I included x4606x. Db Ab open-G F. (R 5 b5 3). Bass plays Db. Next chord is Cmaj7, previous chord is x1303x, Bb F G D. Bb6 and the sound really needs that open G. Kind like a pedal in the middle of the chords.

[rpjazzguitar]

I will only say that I would hate to work for someone who is that anal (or at least appears to be) about the chord voicings he wants. Jazz is improvised music, if he wants his compositions played a specific way, let him hire a chamber ensemble.

Miles Davis reportedly called Hermeto the "most impressive musician in the world". His groups played the things he wrote and also improvised.

As I understand it, he called his music "universal music" because of multiple influences. He certainly improvised, but I don't know that he called it jazz or even thought of it that way.

[Mick-7]

The notation of his tunes in the Brazilian Real Book is not unusual, except for a couple of chords, I can see why he called it Gmb6 rather than EbM7/G.

Don't see the logic behind calling a Cm11 chord Cm 7/4, only difference is no 9th.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, I realize that, I've had such gigs, however they never told me, "play these chord voicings exactly as written" - if that is what he demands?

If it’s original music that’s the safest option.

In general I would say most projects - play what’s on the page for the head if there’s arrangement there (for example rhythm section figured indicated etc), improvise on vamps and blowing sections.

For melody and chords style lead sheets, a lot more improv is required to fill out the arrangement of the song. But often experienced musicians will play the arrangement from the record if they know it anyway.

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[rpjazzguitar]

That chart has got both m7b5 and m9b5, perhaps an indication that he cared about the ninth, or lack thereof.

That said, it's may be that Hermeto didn't do this chart himself.

There's a video of Hermeto backing Elis Regina at Montreaux, taking Ipanema into outer space. Worth hearing to appreciate Hermeto's harmonic ability.

[Mick-7]

That chart has got both m7b5 and m9b5, perhaps an indication that he cared about the ninth, or lack thereof. That said, it's may be that Hermeto didn't do this chart himself.

Yes, probably not, hopefully it's more accurate than the standard Real Books.... Looks like he he's quite fond of 9th (& 6th) chords? This chart has min9, min9b5, 9sus4 & 9b5 (dominant chords).

I'm confused by the chord symbol in bar 3, Ao7addb13. The b13th of a diminished chord, is that F natural? So it's just a F7b9 with the 3rd (A) in the bass?

Very interesting harmonies though, I'll have to spend some time with it.

[rpjazzguitar]

Yes, probably not, hopefully it's more accurate than the standard Real Books.... Looks like he he's quite fond of 9th (& 6th) chords? This chart has min9, min9b5, 9sus4 & 9b5 (dominant chords).

I'm confused by the chord symbol in bar 3, Ao7addb13. The b13th of a diminished chord, is that F natural? So it's just a F7b9 with the 3rd (A) in the bass?

Very interesting harmonies though, I'll have to spend some time with it.

The o7addb13 comes up in Brazilian music. It could be 5x456x. Note that 5x454x is a common diminished grip - and the pinkie is available to add the F on the B string. The notes are then A F# C and F. From the point of view of F7b9, it's missing the b7 (although you could lift the pinkie and strum again). From the point of view of Ao7 it's missing the b5 but adding the b13.

But, all that said, the pianist has the option of playing both Eb and F. I don't know what the pianist is likely to do.

Hermeto plays some guitar and a lot of other instruments, but his primary instrument, I think, is piano.

To hear some vintage Hermeto, look up a tune called Pipoca, which I think Sergio Mendes recorded.

[Christian Miller]

I mean o7addb13 literally turns up in Tea for Two and Pennies from Heaven stuff like that.. it’s not an exotic harmony, it pops up all over the place.

It’s just that most charts notate it as a regular o7 chord, probably because people would freak out or something

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