Larry Carlton on ATTYA

[BradGuitar]

I’m a big fan of Soundslice and have a number of transcriptions up there, often done with a view to revisiting and really digging into at a later date… yet seldom happens

Anyway, I’ve always loved this performance of All The Things You Are by Larry Carlton, sitting in with Les Paul and the house band. Spontaneity, great feel, just a lovely vibe all round.

Larry Carlton - All The Things You Are | Soundslice

[nyc chaz]

Guys last month on here were saying Larry was not a jazz guitarist which made me laugh.Thanks for posting this.

[BradGuitar]

Guys last month on here were saying Larry was not a jazz guitarist which made me laugh.Thanks for posting this.

Hmmm that’s certainly interesting. I guess Larry has so much going on, that I can kinda understand where that perception could arise… but I completely disagree with that notion personally

[jameslovestal]

Hmmm that’s certainly interesting. I guess Larry has so much going on, that I can kinda understand where that perception could arise… but I completely disagree with that notion personally

First, no one made the claim that Carlton wasn't a jazz guitarist. Instead, what was said was that most of his album releases wouldn't be considered "jazz" (especially not straight-ahead jazz or interpretation of jazz standards), but his live sets (like the one here), often featured that type of "jazz".

PS: I just listened to this fine interpretation of ATTYA. When I first read the top post, I was surprised Larry was playing a Les Paul. Now I understand that Larry was playing WITH Les Paul!

[BradGuitar]

First, no one made the claim that Carlton wasn't a jazz guitarist. Instead, what was said was that most of his album releases wouldn't be considered "jazz" (especially not straight-ahead jazz or interpretation of jazz standards), but his live sets (like the one here), often featured that type of "jazz".

PS: I just listened to this fine interpretation of ATTYA. When I first read the top post, I was surprised Larry was playing a Les Paul. Now I understand that Larry was playing WITH Les Paul!

Ahhh the plot thickens… I wasn’t privy to that thread but seems there was a bit more nuance to it? I guess “Jazz” can and does mean different things to different people, hence the conjecture…

[wolflen]

Ahhh the plot thickens… I wasn’t privy to that thread but seems there was a bit more nuance to it? I guess “Jazz” can and does mean different things to different people, hence the conjecture…

my take..Carlton is not a jazz player..that doesn't mean he cant play jazz..defined as standards and compositions of respected players of the art.

He could play the "book" if he wanted to ,, the material he plays is his choice and his talent is turbocharged when he plays what he likes.

His playing has influenced mine and I'm thankful he shares his talent with us.

[Christian Miller]

Guys last month on here were saying Larry was not a jazz guitarist which made me laugh.Thanks for posting this.

I think Carlton is not really a jazz guitarist (although weirdly I think Allan Holdsworth was, go figure that one out)

It’s a professional thing, Larry was a session rock player with something of a jazz and charts background. Not a common skill set during that era. This made him extremely useful even when he wasn’t playing such as MDing for Steely Dan and so on.

I also do not really care. If people want to call Larry a jazz guitarist go ahead.

[nyc chaz]

Hmmm that’s certainly interesting. I guess Larry has so much going on, that I can kinda understand where that perception could arise… but I completely disagree with that notion personally

Here's the original thread i was referring to if you are interested Larry Carlton ,maybe i have bad reading comprehension but guys were saying he is not a jazz guitarist as they are already in this thread.Carlton was in the Crusader's and Fourplay,both being jazz groups as far as i know. I don't think anyone would question George Benson being a jazz guitarist,but in the past 45 plus years all his records have a commercial RnB bent and most people that i know think of him as a singer in that genre and not a jazz guitarist.Tony Mottola who was my original inspiration to pick up a guitar i considered a jazz guitarist but the records he put out were mostly commercial in nature.

[jameslovestal]

Ahhh the plot thickens… I wasn’t privy to that thread but seems there was a bit more nuance to it? I guess “Jazz” can and does mean different things to different people, hence the conjecture…

The main question raised by the other thread was why such a fine musician like Carlton doesn't get more "love" at the Jazz Guitar forum.

The common response was that most of the music he made a living at wasn't "jazz"; e.g. the work with Stealy Dan, the fusion "jazz" etc... Other fine guitarist like Wes, Howard Roberts, and George Bension were mentioned in a similar light. (which leads to the sell-out rabbit hole).

The old age topic of being a musician and making a good living and being so called 'true' to music (like jazz), as an art form.

[jameslovestal]

Here's the original thread i was referring to if you are interested Larry Carlton ,maybe i have bad reading comprehension but guys were saying he is not a jazz guitarist as they are already in this thread.Carlton was in the Crusader's and Fourplay,both being jazz groups as far as i know. I don't think anyone would question George Benson being a jazz guitarist,but in the past 45 plus years all his records have a commercial RnB bent and most people that i know think of him as a singer in that genre and not a jazz guitarist.Tony Mottola who was my original inspiration to pick up a guitar i considered a jazz guitarist but the records he put out were mostly commercial in nature.

It isn't that you have bad reading comprehension, but instead viewed the overall discussion as too-binary; I.e. is so-and-so a jazz guitarist, YES or NO. Again, I still don't recall anyone saying that Carlton was NOT a jazz guitarist. Instead, what was said was that Carlton made his living as a professional musician, mainly playing what many would consider to be non-jazz music.

Of course, this gets into another common overly binary discussion at this forum: what is jazz music? Ah, the rabbit hole never ends.

[princeplanet]

Does Larry consider himself to be a "Jazz guitarist"? I mean, first and foremost?

[nyc chaz]

Does Larry consider himself to be a "Jazz guitarist"? I mean, first and foremost?

I would say that a guy who lists Coltrane and Joe Pass as main influences and has jazz guitarist next to his name on a billboard the answer is yes.The thing with Carlton is he can play any style and sound authentic and solid.

[BradGuitar]

Well, quite the debate for sharing a transcription… :-)

my take..Carlton is not a jazz player..that doesn't mean he cant play jazz..defined as standards and compositions of respected players of the art.

He could play the "book" if he wanted to ,, the material he plays is his choice and his talent is turbocharged when he plays what he likes.

His playing has influenced mine and I'm thankful he shares his talent with us.

I think there’s definitely a case for that outlook. I think it’s something that talks to our subconscious bias - what defines a “jazz” guitarist to us as individuals.

I think Carlton is not really a jazz guitarist (although weirdly I think Allan Holdsworth was, go figure that one out)

Perhaps the (perceived) relentless pursuit of artistic vision? Holdsworth turned his back on the Level 42 gig after all. Perhaps if he hadn’t, and diversified his playing (I dare say “sold out”) we wouldn’t hold him in quite the same regard? Is that where Carlton suffers?

The main question raised by the other thread was why such a fine musician like Carlton doesn't get more "love" at the Jazz Guitar forum.

The common response was that most of the music he made a living at wasn't "jazz"; e.g. the work with Stealy Dan, the fusion "jazz" etc... Other fine guitarist like Wes, Howard Roberts, and George Bension were mentioned in a similar light. (which leads to the sell-out rabbit hole).

The old age topic of being a musician and making a good living and being so called 'true' to music (like jazz), as an art form.

Having now read that thread, and opinions here, I’ve got a better feel for where folk from both sides of the debate are coming from.

I wonder if, after (and during) his LA session era he spent the rest of his career with an archtop playing like the vid in the OP, would he then be seen as a jazz guitarist to those that beg to differ? Seemed to work for Jimmy Bruno who did the LA session scene too, albeit nowhere near as high profile… perhaps there is a subconscious perception of a slight lack of authenticity in what jazz offerings there are from Carlton?

I saw him live in 2018 (I think) and what was interesting was hearing him talk about not only his direct influences (the jazzers) but how the people that he said didn’t influence him (ie the rockers) impacted his development in his formative years. Going off what he said, it seems to me, his grounding and development is steeped in jazz. Somewhere along the way he diversified and perhaps that diluted it in people’s eyes?

I guess my take is that ultimately he is a Jazz guitarist that branched out (quite effortlessly) into the rock, fusion, whatever pays the bills world. As opposed to a Blues/Rock guy that had a capability to blag jazz to most people most of the time (eg someone like Guthrie Govan).

All of this from a guy who grew up playing rock/metal, so take my opinion with a hefty pinch of salt

Besides, I’m beginning to sound like a staunch defender of Larry Carlton… and I really couldn’t care less. I just shared a transcription of a vid I liked


As you were…

[Christian Miller]

Perhaps the (perceived) relentless pursuit of artistic vision?

maybe, that’s probably part of it.. Mostly I think he just seems like a jazzer to me, he doesn’t express himself in a rock sort of way.

Allan is also quite weird …

Holdsworth turned his back on the Level 42 gig after all.

did he not volunteer for it and then get fired? Or did I hear wrong?

I think they wanted someone more funk oriented although to my ears Allan did a good job on the rhythm parts. High standards I guess.

Perhaps if he hadn’t, and diversified his playing (I dare say “sold out”) we wouldn’t hold him in quite the same regard? Is that where Carlton suffers?

I didn’t equate thinking someone is a jazz guitarist with holding them in high regard. To me it’s a separate axis. There’s lots of jazz guitarists I don’t really listen to.

secondly I think very many people hold Carlton in the highest regard, and I certainly admire his playing.

Having now read that thread, and opinions here, I’ve got a better feel for where folk from both sides of the debate are coming from.

I wonder if, after (and during) his LA session era he spent the rest of his career with an archtop playing like the vid in the OP, would he then be seen as a jazz guitarist to those that beg to differ? Seemed to work for Jimmy Bruno who did the LA session scene too, albeit nowhere near as high profile… perhaps there is a subconscious perception of a slight lack of authenticity in what jazz offerings there are from Carlton?

I dunno, I think he just does Larry Carlton tbh and I respect that. He knows what he is.

I saw him live in 2018 (I think) and what was interesting was hearing him talk about not only his direct influences (the jazzers) but how the people that he said didn’t influence him (ie the rockers) impacted his development in his formative years. Going off what he said, it seems to me, his grounding and development is steeped in jazz. Somewhere along the way he diversified and perhaps that diluted it in people’s eyes?

I guess my take is that ultimately he is a Jazz guitarist that branched out (quite effortlessly) into the rock, fusion, whatever pays the bills world. As opposed to a Blues/Rock guy that had a capability to blag jazz to most people most of the time (eg someone like Guthrie Govan).

Don’t know really, perhaps I’m being unfair. I just hear his standards takes as more ‘here’s a standard with a smoothish/jazz funk vibe’ and he does his thing. Not that standards are the be all and end all. The playing is great but I feel it’s a different thing somehow.

George Benson otoh spent his early career beasting it on straightahead jazz dates. His playing in the era as good as that type of thing gets…

[BradGuitar]

maybe, that’s probably part of it.. Mostly I think he just seems like a jazzer to me, he doesn’t express himself in a rock sort of way.

Allan is also quite weird …

True. I naively asked him about releasing any new music and he promptly shared that he was only on tour because his divorce cleaned him out and he had to sell his studio… he was thoroughly lovely, but it threw 22 year old me, meeting his hero.

did he not volunteer for it and then get fired? Or did I hear wrong?

I think they wanted someone more funk oriented although to my ears Allan did a good job on the rhythm parts. High standards I guess.

I could very well have this wrong, but my understanding was that Gary Husband pushed for him to join as a way of getting Allan a regular paid gig, but Allan couldn’t stick the constraints musically. The truth could be somewhere in the middle…

I didn’t equate thinking someone is a jazz guitarist with holding them in high regard. To me it’s a separate axis. There’s lots of jazz guitarists I don’t really listen to.

secondly I think very many people hold Carlton in the highest regard, and I certainly admire his playing.

Please forgive me, I guess I worded that incorrectly (blame the sprouts). I wasn’t suggesting that you hold jazz guitarist in a higher regard. More that, would you still hold your “weird” view that Holdsworth was a jazz guitarist, if he’d followed the path that Carlton did? You’d still admire Holdsworth’s playing of course, but would it change your perception (not your admiration) of him as a guitarist? In the way you don’t perceive Carlton as a jazz guitarist, despite your appreciation of his playing?

I think it’s safe to say it’s not in doubt that everyone admires Carlton’s playing… just maybe not always the vehicles for it.

I dunno, I think he just does Larry Carlton tbh and I respect that. He knows what he is.

Ditto Holdsworth, Rosenwinkel, Sco, Metheny and the rest.

Don’t know really, perhaps I’m being unfair. I just hear his standards takes as more ‘here’s a standard with a smoothish/jazz funk vibe’ and he does his thing. Not that standards are the be all and end all. The playing is great but I feel it’s a different thing somehow.

And that’s cool.

George Benson otoh spent his early career beasting it on straightahead jazz dates. His playing in the era as good as that type of thing gets…

Completely agree.

[Christian Miller]

True. I naively asked him about releasing any new music and he promptly shared that he was only on tour because his divorce cleaned him out and he had to sell his studio… he was thoroughly lovely, but it threw 22 year old me, meeting his hero.



I could very well have this wrong, but my understanding was that Gary Husband pushed for him to join as a way of getting Allan a regular paid gig, but Allan couldn’t stick the constraints musically. The truth could be somewhere in the middle…




Please forgive me, I guess I worded that incorrectly (blame the sprouts). I wasn’t suggesting that you hold jazz guitarist in a higher regard. More that, would you still hold your “weird” view that Holdsworth was a jazz guitarist, if he’d followed the path that Carlton did? You’d still admire Holdsworth’s playing of course, but would it change your perception (not your admiration) of him as a guitarist? In the way you don’t perceive Carlton as a jazz guitarist, despite your appreciation of his playing?

Good question. One musician who took some of Allan’s style to the pop world is Holdsworth’s direct predecessor in level 42, Alan Murphy. I don’t think of him as a jazzer.

For me it’s more about the music than the players skilllset. Satriani studied with Tristano, but I don’t think anyone would call him a jazz player.

but this is a distinction that comes in with teaching too. A lot of proggy and shreddy players want to learn ‘jazz’. To me jazz is a kind of music with a long and storied tradition, to them it’s capability and knowledge.

I think part of this is the tacit assumption people some people seem to have that the skillset required to play jazz is inherently different from other types of music. But in jazz you have guitar players who can play great but couldn’t MD a band or write arrangements like Larry did. Benson springs to mind. To play jazz you need to use your ears to learn the music and apply on your instrument just like anything else (apart from maybe classical.)

A good musician is a good musician. Rock may be easier to ‘fake’ than jazz but good rock playing isn’t fakery. Skills are transferrable in music, and I suppose jazzers tend to be more schooled, but it comes down to the same thing.

otoh the boundaries between genres are porous. We can all agree Steve Vai is a rock musician and Dexter Gordon is a jazz musician. But what about Mike Brecker when he was recording with Dire Straits? If not, did he suddenly morph into a jazzer when playing with a jazz quintet? It seems absurd.

Perhaps it doesn’t really matter. But you get booked for what people know you for, and that has a knock on effect one ones playing. If you play only straightahead jazz gigs people aren’t going to book you for fusion gigs by and large, no matter how well you can play that stuff. If you get busy with it, that stuff might get rusty while your straightahead playing gets gig hardened and better and better.

Don’t ask me about Wayne Krantz in Steely Dan haha. I have NFI.

[rlrhett]

I’m a big fan of Soundslice and have a number of transcriptions up there, often done with a view to revisiting and really digging into at a later date… yet seldom happens

Anyway, I’ve always loved this performance of All The Things You Are by Larry Carlton, sitting in with Les Paul and the house band. Spontaneity, great feel, just a lovely vibe all round.

Larry Carlton - All The Things You Are | Soundslice

I didn't know that website existed. It is really cool to follow a video of the playing and see a transcription of the same time. It lets me stop concentrating on exactly what I'm hearing/seeing and just focus on learning. I'll definitely be searching for more content like that.

[BradGuitar]

Good question. One musician who took some of Allan’s style to the pop world is Holdsworth’s direct predecessor in level 42, Alan Murphy. I don’t think of him as a jazzer.

For me it’s more about the music than the players skilllset. Satriani studied with Tristano, but I don’t think anyone would call him a jazz player.

but this is a distinction that comes in with teaching too. A lot of proggy and shreddy players want to learn ‘jazz’. To me jazz is a kind of music with a long and storied tradition, to them it’s capability and knowledge.

I think part of this is the tacit assumption people some people seem to have that the skillset required to play jazz is inherently different from other types of music. But in jazz you have guitar players who can play great but couldn’t MD a band or write arrangements like Larry did. Benson springs to mind. To play jazz you need to use your ears to learn the music and apply on your instrument just like anything else (apart from maybe classical.)

A good musician is a good musician. Rock may be easier to ‘fake’ than jazz but good rock playing isn’t fakery. Skills are transferrable in music, and I suppose jazzers tend to be more schooled, but it comes down to the same thing.

otoh the boundaries between genres are porous. We can all agree Steve Vai is a rock musician and Dexter Gordon is a jazz musician. But what about Mike Brecker when he was recording with Dire Straits? If not, did he suddenly morph into a jazzer when playing with a jazz quintet? It seems absurd.

Perhaps it doesn’t really matter. But you get booked for what people know you for, and that has a knock on effect one ones playing. If you play only straightahead jazz gigs people aren’t going to book you for fusion gigs by and large, no matter how well you can play that stuff. If you get busy with it, that stuff might get rusty while your straightahead playing gets gig hardened and better and better.

Don’t ask me about Wayne Krantz in Steely Dan haha. I have NFI.

I agree that the music is what it’s about. And Satriani is a good example of someone who studied with a jazz great, yet is nowhere near being accused of remotely being a jazz guitarist (great musician that he is). But then, I’ve never heard him speak or play in that idiom so he’s never really in the conversation like say, Carlton is. Even if Satriani suddenly released a jazz album that was really legit, I’m sure everyone would think it’s cute, maybe even very, very good. But the perception he’s really a instrumental rock guy will remain.

I think there can be a tendency (understandably) to paint a lot of proggy/shreddy folk with the same brush. I agree that will probably approach jazz as a way of just puffing out their chest, as a “thing to wrestle into submission” so to speak. But I think a lot also want to explore the concept of what makes jazz, even if it’s in what might be deemed a superficial way and there will be some that immerse themselves completely. But I guess we’re veering away from whether Carlton can legitimately be called a jazz guitarist to something a bit different…

Brecker? Of course not, and it is absurd to us, because we are “in the know”. But what about the average Dire Straits fan that only knows of Brecker in that context? Or the wider public that only knows Benson as a soul/pop/smooth/RnB singer and not one the greatest guitarists to ever strike a string irrespective of genre? The fact that Brecker could turn his hand to a brilliant pop solo, doesn’t diminish his standing as a modern jazz great to us does it? If all we’d consumed was Brecker’s pop/studio work, then, suddenly wrapped our ears around Pilgrimage, would be going “nah not having that, he’s a pop guy really. Sure he could turn his hand to standards and play the book but is he a really a jazzer?”

Of course not, because we know better (or differently at least). How do we know that Carlton wasn’t cutting his teeth “beasting it on straight ahead jazz dates” like Benson did? Because of his style on what we have heard on his recorded and live output? I agree it’s certainly fair to say that one’s regular playing becomes one’s strength (to a point) and perhaps, Carlton’s straight ahead playing could very well have suffered because of it. Personally, I think Larry’s performance of ATTYA, whilst stylistically different from a Benson version (which for me, cultural and environmental considerations are a big part), certainly give credence to the argument of him being classed as a jazz guitarist. A jazz guitarist that was able to branch out into other spheres, possibly (probably) to the detriment of his straight ahead playing depending on what the listener likes to hear in such playing.

Krantz in Steely Dan? Yep, we’ll have to visit that another time! haha

[BradGuitar]

I didn't know that website existed. It is really cool to follow a video of the playing and see a transcription of the same time. It lets me stop concentrating on exactly what I'm hearing/seeing and just focus on learning. I'll definitely be searching for more content like that.

Good isn’t it? Or novel at least… lots of great content up there though.

[wolflen]

I tend to think our definitions of a genre can be very restrictive.

I Carltons case..he was a top studio musician..playing different styles on demand..so to speak..

He left that phase of his playing joined established groups The Crusaders..Fourplay and more

He has played with some of the top jazz names..

so the perception that he is not a jazz guitarist by some seems short sighted

He can be when he chooses to be or when the situation calls for him to be

Benson..I liked his playing when he was playing on CTI dates..raw and smokin'
when Broadway hit the air..the thrill was gone

[jameslovestal]

I tend to think our definitions of a genre can be very restrictive.

I Carltons case..he was a top studio musician..playing different styles on demand..so to speak..

He left that phase of his playing joined established groups The Crusaders..Fourplay and more

He has played with some of the top jazz names..

so the perception that he is not a jazz guitarist by some seems short sighted

He can be when he chooses to be or when the situation calls for him to be

Benson..I liked his playing when he was playing on CTI dates..raw and smokin'
when Broadway hit the air..the thrill was gone

What I find short sighted is the very narrow definition of a jazz guitarist, some folks here have. But if one accepts that narrow definition (which I do NOT), then many fine guitarists, that can play jazz, are not jazz guitarist by default.

In other words, the debate here, wasn't about one guitarist, but instead the definition of jazz-guitarist.