Should I Feel Guilty?

[James W]

Since restarting jazz guitar again in February I've also restarted transcribing music (whereas when I was playing classical guitar, I studied counterpoint).

By 'transcribing' music of course I mean figuring it out by ear and writing it down.

But, I have to admit to using youtube's function which enables one to change the speed of the music. Does anyone else use this?

The reason I've started this thread is I half-remember hearing somewhere that it was best to not slow down music when figuring it out. And to be sure, about ten years ago when I didn't even own a computer, I did manage to write down Miles Davis's solo on Straight No Chaser from his Newport 1958 album - though it's not too difficult or fast, just from the CD.

So, should I feel guilty about using the slow-down function? What does everyone here do where transcribing is concerned? I admit I'd find the temptation to use this function too hard to resist!

[Gabor]

Since Transcribe! many musician and professional trancribers use slowing down. If you are transcribing, there is no need to feel guilt, feel the opposite, you are doing a usefull and positive thing.

[Christian Miller]

Since restarting jazz guitar again in February I've also restarted transcribing music (whereas when I was playing classical guitar, I studied counterpoint).

By 'transcribing' music of course I mean figuring it out by ear and writing it down.

But, I have to admit to using youtube's function which enables one to change the speed of the music. Does anyone else use this?

The reason I've started this thread is I half-remember hearing somewhere that it was best to not slow down music when figuring it out. And to be sure, about ten years ago when I didn't even own a computer, I did manage to write down Miles Davis's solo on Straight No Chaser from his Newport 1958 album - though it's not too difficult or fast, just from the CD.

So, should I feel guilty about using the slow-down function? What does everyone here do where transcribing is concerned? I admit I'd find the temptation to use this function too hard to resist!

the whole point of music is to feel guilty!!!

So for me I think it depends what you want from the process and where you are at

listening to phrases and repeating them back in real time is great for training your ability to respond to music in the moment

Slowing down phrases is great for figuring out trickier phrases and working on technique etc. For tricky bop heads and solos etc I can’t see why working at 75% speed would be a problem. 50% and slower and everything can lost context a bit. I don’t know .

my theory is that the ear recognises phrases not individual pitches. Slow down phrases too much and this can get lost. OTOH if you build up a good knowledge of bebop-isms and scale patterns it can get to the point where you just recognise a phrase and play it back - but then something unfamiliar can give pause for thought.

I find looping phrases at tempo the most useful atm. The most difficult part of the process for me atm is not playing, but rather making sure the phrase sticks in my ear. The longer the phrase or section the more work it takes on this side….. which is where we can get into conversations about whether to learn whole solos Tristano style as opposed to short licks and vocab. Both have their uses and not everyone great does everything, quiet as its kept in education.

The there’s the question of whether to write it down or not or just play it. I think the latter is more important if you are working on improvisation. The former may be helpful if you are working on composition and of course analysis (which I think is overrated but hey ho).

And in the Tristano school you have to sing the whole solo before you even go near your instrument. A miles solo would be a good candidate for this process.

I would tend to start off with tunes as well. It’s more use and a little easier to learn a stack of bop heads and learn to apply the language because it kills two birds with one stone…

[grahambop]

Even Charlie Parker used to slow down Lester Young records to learn the solos (he had a portable record player with a speed adjustment), so I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

[orri]

If you're at all spening time on transcribing, I don't think you should not feel "guilty" for making it a bit easier.
The more you do it, the better you will get at it and you will likely gradually use the slow down feature less and less without thinking about it.

It should both be enjoyable and challenging. So don't forget to enjoy the process.

I use a program called Audacity when I transcribe.
Mainly, I just use it to conveiniently select segments of audio (musical phrases) that I want to repeat.
It does have a slow down feature (they call it "change tempo"), but it might take a few more mouse clicks than in other applications.
When it is slightly more bothersome to slow down a segment of a solo, the "easy lazy" option is to not use the slow downer.
Which incentivises challenging yourself a bit more and at least try before slowing down a segment.

And in the Tristano school you have to sing the whole solo before you even go near your instrument. A miles solo would be a good candidate for this process.

I took lessons with a guitarist who idolized Lennie Tristano and studied with one of Lennie's favourite students (Crothers).
He told me to start the singing whole solos without touching an instrument thing with Lester Young solos.
They are quite singable and also often comfortably short.
It was much more enjoyable than I thought, but also quite a challenge.

It takes the focus away from the fingers and makes you memorize the solo as "sound" rather than some visual memorization of finger shapes/movement on the fretboard.

[James W]

Thanks for the replies!

I often sing a few notes before making it match with my fingers on the fretboard; I might try more singing in my approach, but I doubt I'd sing the whole thing before committing it to the fretboard and/or paper; usually I like to write down a whole solo, rather than a few licks (although there have been times that I've just taken down a lick or two).

Also, there was a time when I decided I'd learn a whole solo before writing it down (I think Levine suggests this in his Jazz Theory book) but I didn't end up finishing it and ended up quitting the jazz guitar not too long after. Not that I could ever conceive of quitting jazz guitar ever again now, but I like the idea of writing it down, because in itself writing it down doesn't preclude absorbing the music fully i.e. memorising it.

[ruger9]

Since Transcribe! many musician and professional trancribers use slowing down. If you are transcribing, there is no need to feel guilt, feel the opposite, you are doing a usefull and positive thing.

Agreed... it's no different than many of our guitar heroes, back in the days of vinyl, would put their finger on the turntable to slow it down and try to figure out fast passages.

I've never used the YouTube slow-down feature myself, I generally try to find TAB of whatever piece I want to learn, and a video of the creator playing it (like Julian Lage or whoever), and just try to figure it out between those 2 things. And I feel TAB (or sheet music) is no more "cheating" than using a slow-downer. The point is, YOU LEARN.

[RJVB]

The existential questions people struggle with ...

The only thing you could feel guilty about is not using your counterpoint knowledge to build (on-the-fly) fugues over your favourite themes

[James W]

Lol! I wasn't entirely serious about feeling guilty - I just wanted to provoke some guidance on these matters and forum members have obliged.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Agreed... it's no different than many of our guitar heroes, back in the days of vinyl, would put their finger on the turntable to slow it down and try to figure out fast passages.

Back in the 1950s and ‘60s when I was getting started, we all played 33 rpm records at 16 and 45s at 33 to learn and understand what our heroes were playing. I first learned D Natural Blues and Gone With The Wind from Wes’s Incredible Jazz Guitar album that way, after months and months of needle dropping (and frustration). And as I got better, I went back and relearned the many phrases I simplified because I wasn’t good enough to play them right when I first tried.

There are some notes and phrases that sound fantastic when you hear them, and you think you can play them. But listening to my uses of them is often frustrating because I “know” I’m playing the “right” notes, yet they don’t seem as right when I play them.

I’m still relearning many of the tunes I copped that way 60 years ago. But now I can slow the tempo with no alteration in pitch. The 21st century is a great place to live! I feel no guilt at all - I’m grateful for the help and still in need of it

[rpjazzguitar]

For me it's finding the balance between frustration and transcription.

If I had to do everything at full speed, I'd probably give up on a lot of things.

So, I use the youtube slow down or Amazing SlowDowner or Reaper.

It also seems to me there's another issue.

If the goal is to figure out licks to add to your bop vocabulary then slowing them down makes good sense.

If the goal is to train your ear to be able to respond on the fly on the bandstand, then maybe developing that skill involves identifying things at full speed.

Not that these things don't overlap.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

If the goal is to figure out licks to add to your bop vocabulary then slowing them down makes good sense. If the goal is to train your ear to be able to respond on the fly on the bandstand, then maybe developing that skill involves identifying things at full speed.

I don't see any separation between the two. I've encountered several complex harmonies and phrases that were far outside any traditional scale and that I simply couldn't identify just from listening on the fly. Slowing things down so I could actually find and play the one or two elusive notes that gave the line its character has really helped me to both hear more acutely / accurately and play what I hear. And it's not just bop that does this - I've had similar encounters with fusion solos and even some funk comping.

[Christian Miller]

I doubt I'd sing the whole thing before committing it to the fretboard and/or paper

tbf - modern jazz solos are longer. The classic repertoire for Tristano students would include solos by Lester Young, Charlie Christian and 20’s/30’s Louis Armstrong and they are typically a chorus or two (limitations of 78s). Much less of a tall order than for the longer solos of the LP age.

(There maybe students out there who have sung through four choruses of Trane for all I know)

So generally when transcribing a solo I do a chorus or two. That’s usually enough before I get bored and do something else. Maybe it’s helpful to sing along first. Helps get it in my head and makes the playing bit easier and more fun.

[Christian Miller]

I don't see any separation between the two. I've encountered several complex harmonies and phrases that were far outside any traditional scale and that I simply couldn't identify just from listening on the fly. Slowing things down so I could actually find and play the one or two elusive notes that gave the line its character has really helped me to both hear more acutely / accurately and play what I hear. And it's not just bop that does this - I've had similar encounters with fusion solos and even some funk comping.

yeah it’s the same thing

I’ve had the exact same experience

[vintagelove]

Whoever told you to "not slow down" while transcribing, stop listening to them.

[RJVB]

I don't see any separation between the two. I've encountered several complex harmonies and phrases that were far outside any traditional scale and that I simply couldn't identify just from listening on the fly.

No shame in that, even Mozart had to go back to correct a few things after transcribing Allegri's Miserere from memory (having heard it once; then again, he was only 14 at the time)

[whiskey02]

ANY knowledge is far more important than how it was attained.

[Strbender]

I use Transcribe and to keep it honest, I speed it up by 25% or more. Then, when I play at normal tempo it's a peice of cake. It is harder though, to sing at the faster tempo without sounding like a cartoon figure.

Just Kidding!!!

However, I do use the Transcribe software. Whatever can help you to improve is find by me.

[Gabor]

...just remembering the old times, and realizing how spoiled we are nowadays, I mean how our possibilities extended...

Back 40 years I had a tape recorder, (not casette recorder) "Tesla", so looping etc was not possible. As a bonus its motor and drive electronics was internal temperature dependent, so I had to tune the guitar to the recorder in every ten minutes, not doing it made impossible to hear anything.

...and not talking about that I had only a few dozens recordings, and now I have almost all the recordings of the world just in my hand...

... and I had only a few pages of learning material some Joe Pass, and Barney Kessel, now I have all the Internet transcriptions...

I feel lucky. The only thing to do is to live wise with this, not as easy as it sounds.

[Christian Miller]

No shame in that, even Mozart had to go back to correct a few things after transcribing Allegri's Miserere from memory (having heard it once; then again, he was only 14 at the time)

No, everyone must feel shame and guilt

it’s part of the fun

[grahambop]

...just remembering the old times, and realizing how spoiled we are nowadays, I mean how our possibilities extended...

Back 40 years I had a tape recorder, (not casette recorder) "Tesla", so looping etc was not possible. As a bonus its motor and drive electronics was internal temperature dependent, so I had to tune the guitar to the recorder in every ten minutes, not doing it made impossible to hear anything.

Same here, when I started I had no books, there was no internet, all I had was some records and an Akai reel-to-reel deck (inherited from my grandfather). So the only options with the tape deck were to listen at full speed, or at half speed (with everything sounding all muddy an octave down).

Fortunately the Akai was very well-built, altogether I must have operated the stop/start control about 10,000 times, listening to each phrase over and over again!

[kris]

When I started to play jazz, I didn't even have a tape recorder.
I listened to radio broadcasts and recordings from vinyl records. I destroyed these records by playing them on a cheap turntable. A needle niche and drew records.
Later I got a reel-to-reel and a caste recorder from my father, which took in the cassette tape, but I was very happy anyway.I was glad it played - it was the most important thing.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Same here, when I started I had no books, there was no internet, all I had was some records and an Akai reel-to-reel deck (inherited from my grandfather).

Ahhh - no books and no internet.........you must mean the "good old days" We did have some books, the most important of which to me was (and still is) Mickey Baker's 1955 jazz guitar book. Apart from that, the books that got me started and kept me going were not yet readily available. Fortunately, I had a mentor in the owner of our local music store. He introduced me to things I never knew existed, perhaps the most important of which was the fake book - the REAL fake book:



This is my first, and those pages were actually white when I got it in 1959 for $10. They were illegal, so he kept them in a locked drawer in one of his tool cabinets and closed the store while he took it out for me. As new volumes arrived, he got me a copy of each and I still have them all. I kept my compositions, transcriptions, and random musical ideas in the front of these looseleaf notebooks. And over the years, I stuck in playlists and anything else I needed for a given gig. So the entries and scribbles in these span many years. The list below is on the first sheet in the book above and was a series of tunes I had to learn for the weddings and Bar Mitzvahs I was starting to play with decent bands. Except for One for my Baby and Satin Doll, those are all tunes that came out while I was in high school or college. I learned them all from records, memorizing most and transcribing whatever parts I thought I might need to have in front of me. These were all chart gigs back then, but I made up cheat sheets to serve as guardrails for the difficult ones since we weren't allowed to write anything on the leaders' charts.



The first recorder I had when I started to play the guitar was my father's ancient Webster Chicago wire recorder! I finally got a used tape recorder for $35 when I was 11 or 12. My dad also had a serious Stromberg Carlson "hifi" system with a very fine multiband radio receiver and an outside antenna. So from the time I was old enough to do it myself (since my parents weren't about to stay up trying to find an obscure Chicago radio show), I listened to the great jazz DJs late at night after reading about them in DownBeat, Metronome etc. Along with album jacket and liner notes, the great jazz DJs were one of my/our most important learning resources. Here's the great Symphony Sid with Arnett Cobb:

[Jonah]

Lee Konitz in an interview told how they used to slow down old LP's to transcribe and then they had to transpose because the pitch changed too... we have more perfect tool.

I do not transcribe a lot but when I do I use slowdown occasionally to figure out some spots... what can be wrong with that?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Lee Konitz in an interview told how they used to slow down old LP's to transcribe and then they had to transpose because the pitch changed too

That’s why we used 16 rpm for 33s - the actual speed is close enough to half that the pitch drops one octave.