1. #1

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    After some years of consciously self-ear-training, I'm now able to figure out the degrees of every notes from a (not very fast/complex ) melody within a tonal context, I'm also able to recognise intervals, triads, 7th chord, but only when they are separately or diatonically within one key (like in the most pop music) played.

    I sometimes heard someone said that when he listen to a jazz solo, he can recognise the degrees of the notes related to the chord played in that bar, and when I try to do this, my ear always tell me which degree the note is to the key (in a diatonic context) ....

    I can do this only when the chord and the solo modally played without a diatonically context. In this case, I think my ear takes the root of the chord for the root of a key.

    Regarding that the most jazz tunes are not diatonic, I find it very frustrating because of the lack of the ability to vertically recognise the relation of the played notes and chords.

    I trained myself with keyboard or with some online-programs , like : Online Ear Training with Intervals, Melodies, Jazz Chord Progressions | IWasDoingAllRight The result is, I do recognise the separately played intervals and chords, but I can't do this in a tune.

    How could I change that? I really need some help.

    Best wishes
    Peng

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  3. #2
    I find it really helps if you work on chordal accompaniment. Learn to hear the flow of chords so you can actually hear the structure before it's played. This is possible because in most tunes we improvise on, the harmony follows pretty clear conventions, standard conventions.
    I also strongly feel that it's important to be able to hear in roman numerals, I chord V7 chord, IV-7 chord. If you can hear these qualities in the harmony, and if you practice so you have facility playing these chords, that relationship of knowing the chord, and knowing the voicing conspire to allow you to pick out the individual notes within.
    Teach your ear dynamic harmony recognition.
    I might suggest that you play along with a tune, but just try to play the root of the chord, and harmonize that root with your voice. Work at this. This is how countless young pop listeners learned harmony, by harmonizing tunes with their friends or sibs.

    Learn chord voicings with an ear to the voices within (once you can hear the root of the chord, the 5th ant the 3rd are not difficult to discern.

    If you played rhythm guitar all day in a big band, voice and note recognition would be second nature. Think that way. It'll come. Play, hear, feel, know.
    In my opinion

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peng1026
    After some years of consciously self-ear-training... I really need some help.

    Best wishes
    Peng
    I think what you have done is teach your ear to hear the wrong thing (training in isolation exercises vs figuring out songs by ear).

    When chords change in a song, the key is not changing for each chord. What is changing is a relationship between that chord and the "key sound"... this is an abstract change in a kind of "harmonic music space" and the perceived quality and character of a chord (comprised of its pitches and their voicing) comes from grasping the chord's position, shape, and orientation within this space with respect to the song's key.

    The Roman numeral labels correspond to these abstract internal representations of position, shape, and orientation within one's mind's ear's phenomenological harmonic music space; just knowing the labels does not make you hear them or recognize them - good ears hear and recognize them without having to know these labels.

    The traditional way of learning to hear these things is through the natural process of figuring out songs by ear. You can check after the fact to see what you figured out is called or labeled, but don't expect names and labels to inform you of what things sound like. Time figuring songs out by ear is how your ear and hands come to know what theory calls pitch, interval, scale, chord, harmony, change, and progression.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peng1026
    I'm now able to figure out the degrees of every notes from a (not very fast/complex ) melody within a tonal context, I'm also able to recognise intervals, triads, 7th chord,
    Well, it's a clever trick but I'm not sure it's got much to do with playing music on the guitar. Maybe useful for getting things off recordings without the sheet in front of you.

    However, if you've trained yourself to hear diatonically then I don't see why you can't do the same thing with non-diatonic notes. You ought to be able to recognise a 7#5, a 7#9, or a 7b5, and so on. It's not very difficult, largely a matter of familiarity.

    If you play them a lot you'll recognise it when other people play them.

  6. #5

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    Learning to guess the degrees is doable in any context. Just have to think about it for a while, figure out a proper method. Or two.

    I think, and thats a bit of derail here, we tend to go after try/fail/repeat 1000 times. Most ear practice (and so many other things) are approached like that.
    But sometimes its good to get slow. Like super slow. So if you figure out exactly how to do a thing, do the thing but spend time with it.

    So for example. You wanna learn how the 13th sounds against a dom7. Make it the most important note and toy with it every way you can think of.
    ... um. I'm not gonna construct a list of what could be done here but I bet its a lot

    Anyway, playing with this particular degree in a certain context(s) will make you recognize it anywhere, whatever the key might be.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peng1026
    After some years of consciously self-ear-training, I'm now able to figure out the degrees of every notes from a (not very fast/complex ) melody within a tonal context, I'm also able to recognise intervals, triads, 7th chord, but only when they are separately or diatonically within one key (like in the most pop music) played.

    I sometimes heard someone said that when he listen to a jazz solo, he can recognise the degrees of the notes related to the chord played in that bar, and when I try to do this, my ear always tell me which degree the note is to the key (in a diatonic context) ....

    I can do this only when the chord and the solo modally played without a diatonically context. In this case, I think my ear takes the root of the chord for the root of a key.

    Regarding that the most jazz tunes are not diatonic, I find it very frustrating because of the lack of the ability to vertically recognise the relation of the played notes and chords.

    I trained myself with keyboard or with some online-programs , like : Online Ear Training with Intervals, Melodies, Jazz Chord Progressions | IWasDoingAllRight The result is, I do recognise the separately played intervals and chords, but I can't do this in a tune.

    How could I change that? I really need some help.

    Best wishes
    Peng