To read or not to read music?

[Lambosoa]

Learn to read music. Do you want to be a guitarist or a musician?

That's discussable: Art Tatum & Erroll Garner allegedly couldn't read (Tatum had a very good reason: he was blind)...

[franco6719]

Of course. There have been fantastic musicians who couldn't read a note of staff music and had no formal music education, etc.. That was a careless comment. I just wasn't thinking about it. I just think it is worthwhile, in a more modern context, to learn to read music instead of relying on tabs for example. It can give you an advantage in many ways and it is a notation system that can be shared by all instrumentalists.

[Lambosoa]

I just wasn't thinking about it. I just think it is worthwhile, in a more modern context, to learn to read music instead of relying on tabs for example. It can give you an advantage in many ways and it is a notation system that can be shared by all instrumentalists.

Definitely!

[Reg]

I don't think there's a real choice in the matter, learn to read music. It's not like do one or the other, it's part of being a musician. The days of knowing 100 or so standards and getting by are long gone. Once you learn to read music, (it's a lot easier than learning to solo), most charts are just guides, memory aids or a way to play music with other musicians with out having to rehearse as much. I read well and because of that ability get a lot more gigs, not just shows, big bands and studio work, but cool jazz gigs I total dig. Last week I read the alto part in four horn arrangements at gig, way cool... When you read lines you pick up phrasing styles from other instruments, which when you solo... it all helps you express what your trying say. Being able to read music is just one of many parts of being a musician, but it's one of them. Don't even think that it's going to take away from the other aspects of being a musician... it will help. Like I said I read well but also get gigs because I love to groove, use my ears etc... if anything reading helps, I can visually see sections as well as hear them.
Obviously we can all do things any way we choose... put in the organized time and make reading one of your technical studies. Best Reg

[Baltar Hornbeek]

So what is my main issue?

I have seen other "players" that are excellent readers of the small dots (that I don't know anything about) and are very good musicians. The strange thing is that without their sheets of music they can play nothing?

You are afraid this might happen to you if you learn to read those "dots"? I guess it could, but it not need be so.

[musicjohnny]

I have just recently started learning to read, and this was previously mentioned on here, but it is indeed satisfying!

I first started because it was (and still is) an obstacle in the way of joining my local Jazz Band. This was merely a seed that was planted in my garden of musical knowledge. As the seedling first grows, you have to tend to it attentively and really solidify it's nutrition ( practice!), but as it matures you begin to reap it's plentiful fruit if it was grown right.

I myself am only in the beginning stages of learning to read, and I recommend learning music to all who don't already know. It's nothing but beneficial.

Namaste, John.

[On Sugar Hill]

As a jazz musician, you don't want to get in the situation in which a horn player sits out a tune and you're expected to read the melody, unless of course you can read. I've been told that transcribing tunes is always better than reading them, but you should still practice having an ability to read melodies. Being able to hear a melody and play it is a great practice. However, you might be ignorant certain nuances of a melody when you don't sight read it. Some people subdivide differently. Reading will definetely give you a stronger sense of a melody and will certainly help you remember melodies more easily since you have a visual reference as well.

[Chulio]

I teach guitar to all levels and used to be against tabs but have since changed my tune.

If an adult only intends on playing guitar then I will use tabs if they want to.
I use the stems so they have to read the timing too.

It started on day when a kid asked me which g should he play the open 3rd string, 5th fret 4th string, 10th fret 5th string or 15th fret 6th string.
The tab tells them which one. Some people just do better with the number 22 on the 1st string than trying to count how many lines above the 5 line measure.

I have had this disscusion with many piano teachers. You would be surprised at how many do not know that stringed instruments have the same note (same octave) in more than one place, because a piano doesn't.

Also if I give a student a tabbed version of a song he/she has never heard and he plays it he is reading the music.

And you can't use the excuse that he does not know the note relationships because many classically trained musicians can play anything but do not understand it.

I still make them learn notes and therory and many want to do both eventually.

Now with young kids I always teach sight reading notes first.

[happyjack]

I found understanding the the theory of music much easier than the process of reading instinctively and have to be patient for that process to evolve through practice , enthusiasm and pushing your boundaries! Can be easy for some and daunting for others ( me) but when something means a lot to you be challenged !

[larry graves]

Learn everything you can, it wont change who you are--it can only make
you better- at anything you pursue. Reading music isn't essential for playing jazz, but as the man said, it can't do you any harm either. It will
certainly help speed up the tune learning process..LG.

[JimBobWay]

I teach guitar to all levels and used to be against tabs but have since changed my tune...I give a student a tabbed version of a song he/she has never heard and he plays it he is reading the music.

A wise and well reasoned statement, indicating discernment, compassion, and openminded authority. Keep up the great work, Teacher!

[C.A.JO.]

To me feeling like a musician involves being able to communicate with both the crowd and other musicians. This means both communicating via the music itself but also via notation.
Understanding music involves good ears, mastery of your instrument, and deep knowledge of the theory behind everything you play. These 3 components (aural skills, technique, theory) propels the best ground for creative application either through composition or improvisation. Therefor reading music is a basic skill everyone should invest some time in learning. How important it is depends on ones individual goal.

Just my 2 cents.

[randalljazz]

hard to imagine this be a subject of debate anywhere but a guitar forum...

[C.A.JO.]

hard to imagine this be a subject of debate anywhere but a guitar forum...

+1.

Nuff said.

[franamico]

To start with - I'm an autodidact that don't read music. Nevertheless I have had the pleasure to play with other musicians all my life. Born 1947 and started playing in 1961. I have always wanted to learn more and still do so.

I read only the chords but can play all the "difficult" ones even if I don't manage to do so in every position. Comping, playing chords & chord progressions is the stronger side of my jazz knowledge. I can also improvise decent in different styles (pop, blues and a little jazz) without making a fool of myself.

So what is my main issue?

Well, I have noticed that for most, but not every, opportunity I play it is possible for me handle the musical situations without being thrown out of the stage and that with our without sheets of music.

But - I have seen other "players" that are excellent readers of the small dots (that I don't know anything about) and are very good musicians. The strange thing is that without their sheets of music they can play nothing?

In Sweden, maybe in other countries too, a common statement about guitarists are: "The best way to get a guitar-player to keep quiet is to put sheet of music in front of him". With certain other musicians it seems to be the opposite.

What do you think about the advantages or disadvantages in this matter?

/R

Hello!

Francesco here...
Yes I know what you are talking about.
And in 20 years of playing I've seen all kinds of players.One thing stands out of professional guitarists:They can solo like crazy AND they can read even better.
Reading is IMPORTANT. Sight reading even more.

I am not saying that you should read standards...

But, very often, people write their own tunes and bring them to rehearsal... and very often they are VERY involved.

You MUST be able to read.

How?

• Start with easy melodies from the real book

• Start very, very slow

• Don't try to read immediately

• Just look at the chart for a while

• Then, slowwwly....read the first few notes

• If you make a mistake, don't stop, carry on...follow the flow

• As soon as you get good, increase the speed and see what happens.

• Practice reading for 15 minutes, then get a cup of coffee, chill...

• Go back for a few more minutes

• Just be patient and it will happen

Good Luck!!

Francesco

[Scrybe]

If you want to be able to make a living as a professional musician, it is best tobe able to read but also be able to play without the dots.

[MarkRhodes]

I understand the impulse to ignore reading and just play. And there are examples of unschooled players who have made great records (though there are a thousand times as many unschooled players who suck, which rarely gets mentioned in this context) but there's no reason for someone with the material available to avoid learning to read. Ignorance is never an advantage.

[woyvel]

I grew up reading music as a trumpet player in school. However, playing guitar and reading is more difficult for me. I never would have gone far if I hadn't learned 80% by ear and sight. I've also found that you don't need to read well to understand theory. I thought learning theory was impossible without reading ability when I was a naive youngster, but have met people that tastefully place -7b5's and #11's without connecting dots.

You can also run into guitarists who can scale and riff their butts off until you start playing a tune and then they fall apart. ...And more that can improvise well but can't comp for another player's solo. Knowing how to read can help those individuals.

Learn as much as you can. Having said that, continue to play to your strengths, while understanding your weaknesses.

[jack_gvr]

I'm a "classical" guitarist, and a note reader since age 4, who learned to read chord symbols and improvise to chord progressions in my 30s and 40s as a matter of perceived necessity (I was offered gigs that required these skills, and preferred the learning curve to keeping my old day job).

I've played with many classical and classically trained musicians over the years. I found the same thing that you did-the overwhelming majority of these fine musicians can not play without the dots, and can not improvise.
They are no fun at parties, and they never get "the girl"!!!

I have also met classical players who cannot improvise.
But they never learned.
I'm sure they could do it if they applied themselves.

1. I've never heard anyone say they regret learning how to read music, but I've heard plenty say they regret not knowing how to read music.
2. Just because a classical musician (who can read music) can't improvise doesn't imply that learning to read music makes you forget how to improvise.

I have talked to other classical guitarists who did not cross this divide, as well as to many non-reading guitarists. Here's my take: some people are willing to learn one thing, do it well, and stop. Other people are driven to diversify musically. One classical guitarist I know, a Univ. professor in guitar, was offered the chance to learn to read chord symbols in an informal jazz ensemble, tried it, hated it, said "I don't need this s**t", and never did learn. To this day he considers it a big mystery, and that those who can read a chord progression are mystically talented. Whereas I know that it meant nothing more nor less than a major 6-month learning curve "I'm gonna get this, by god" until I got it.

Reading music requires, in my opinion, a three year learning curve to become fluent. This is understandably daunting. But look at doctors - how many years of school plus internship? You got a problem wit dat?

Consider also the antique practice of figured bass (17th century chord symbols). This is relatively easy to understand in principle - you just stack the chords on the bass note according to the numbers - but although every university classical music major studies this, not one in a thousand bothers to become fluent, because it really does have a long learning curve in actual practice. Yet in the 17th and 18th centuries to lack this skill meant "no job".

Bottom line: if fate rubs your nose in the necessity of reading, you'll learn it quick enough, or if you are one of those rare few who are driven to grow musically in every possible way. Otherwise, you'll be one of the ones who sits around saying "wish I'd learned that when I was young..." You aren't too old. I learned to read chords in my thirties and now in my fifties I'm doing figured bass. It's not any harder than it would have been when I was 10 - plus I'm smarter now. Same goes for anybody learning to read notes.

...
On another note....I just finished a Grad class in Music Philosophy and one of the leading music philosophers of our day, Bennet Reimer, goes to extraordinary lengths to show that music is NOT a language!! Too much for here but worthy of looking at his writings...fascinating.

As an undergrad I had a professor who always used to say, "we love the music"...meaning the actual printed page. I think it still resounds with me because it gave us an appreciation for the beauty of the written notation itself, and how much 5 lines and seven notes can convey.
Sailor

I didn't say music was *just* a language. However, what if it is? Language gives us Shakespeare and Keats, in addition to expense reports and legal briefs. Surely 'mere words' can convey a wide variety of emotion. Notes and rests are the words and punctuation of music. A gifted musician is like a gifted actor or orator, interpreting their language.

... Imagine if you had a great thought, or a message of love and affection, and you lacked the tools to commit them to paper. ...

As a die-hard Pythagorean I am committed to the idea that music is both a language and a science. Bennet Reimer's ideas, as for as I cursorily understand them, are the end of a long trend in musical thought which began with Aristoxenus (and Aristotle) separating the sensual aspect of music from the scientific, with the parallel long-term evolution of secular music as separate from sacred music - an evolution which may have deep mythological roots in the conflict between the overtone series and any tuning system.

Arriving in the 21st century, then, we find that music has been repeatedly downgraded - first it's not even a science, then it's not even a language, just a warm and fuzzy set of sensual experiences which should in some vague way be of theoretical benefit to students. This won't make for very serious music students.

To be fair to Reimer, he is making a serious attempt to re-gain the former position of music in the educational system (in the USA it has lost a lot of ground since I was a kid - we had three teachers in my high school music dept., now one teacher covers an entire school district.) by saying that music education must be more relevant - a "Vatican II" of music. However, he is also responding to the recent-decades dumbing down of music itself, to the popular trend - I mean hip-hop etc. - of using only very low frequencies where the concept of a half-diminished chord is irrelevant. In my cynical opinion this is a completely lost cause, and I thank my lucky stars that I am not a professional music educator in the system that Reimer finds himself in.

- jack

[Sailor]

JACK...Great post with a LOT of information. Yeah...reading is really a must if you love the art and is a commitment of (3?) years or whatever...not impossible at all....well worth it and it becomes FUN!

As far as Reimer goes, I think his philosophy and works are worth a serious look. We really enjoyed the controversy in school and it brought out a LOT of great discussion. I believe his point is that music is so much more than a language and can't be pigeon-holed and measured by quantifiable means such as reading and math. There is a great argument of art for arts sake that doesn't need to be measured or proven.

Sailor

[jack_gvr]

JACK...

As far as Reimer goes, I think his philosophy and works are worth a serious look. ...
Sailor

Well, I'm all ears. Why don't we take it to a new thread?

[eddue]

In reference to actually reading music, is everyone here referring to the ability to play as you are reading or just knowing the notes on the staff (lines and spaces)?

[jack_gvr]

In reference to actually reading music, is everyone here referring to the ability to play as you are reading

Yes.

or just knowing the notes on the staff (lines and spaces)?

That's a necessary preliminary step, of course, like knowing the alphabet.

Consider another case of reading: just knowing how to construct a chord, but having to stop and "figure it out" when you see "DbMaj7" on the page, is also a preliminary stage ("wait a minute, guys, I gotta figure out this chord"); when you can do it and make music in real time, then we can call it reading - otherwise, it's more like "deciphering".

Reading at a professional level is (to state the obvious high-level case) when you walk into a studio for a paid gig, they put a chart in front of you that you never saw before, you play it, collect your check, leave, and get called again for the next gig. Most of us don't do this kind of work, but there are musicians who do.

Bet you didn't have to stop and "figure out" what I just wrote. That's reading... (wow, guess you know the alphabet pretty well )

[eddue]

I guess I am at the deciphering stage, although I am very good at it. I can play chord charts and use real/fake books with the best of them, even transpose while I am playing but need to work on my sight reading. Not much call for it here lately but it is more of a personal goal than anything else. I'm sure being a better reader would make me a better musician!