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12-20-2020 12:39 PM
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'A common adage with Perfect Pitch is that can be developed below the age of 5. If you look at my life at the time of this writing December 20, 2020 – I have a lifestyle of a 5 year old: No school, No job, No girlfriend, No wife, No children, Not driving, Not paying bills, Still living with my parents. I have sacrificed all of the adulting just to bring back to my pre-programmed state as a little child and reprogramming my subconscious and perception. And I feel that this is what I should be really working on.'
You should probably edit this part of your blog a bit because for one, I don't think 5 year olds write blogs on the internet. Also 5 year olds do go to school.. its called kindergarten
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For years, I've been seeing ads for it and reading comments from people who are trying.
But never once from somebody who succeeded.
Why is that?
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...oh not again...
It is not. If you believe it then you mix the pitch memory with hearing the sounds as seeing colors.
btw the last thing I want "demystify music" (credit goes to you) I would like to part of it instead, which is understanding generation of artists, their (musical) thoughts, intentions. The majority of those musicians had no perfect pitch, so I am sure, my lack of it will not be a problem getting closer to my goal
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Their Perfect Pitch training methods and tools were simply full of crap. That's why they didn't succeed.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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What I'm trying to say is that I am reprogramming my mind to my original native state as if I'm before 5 years old again. Have you ever heard of the religious term 'born again'? Originally Posted by jazznylon
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You've already have a thread that deals with this .. You've been at it for almost two years. How is it working out for you?
Why I think Adults can develop Perfect Pitch
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I don’t see any evidence in that blog post, just wishful thinking. I’d need more than that to “firmly believe” something.
It’s funny though, we watch the same news program just about every evening, and a couple of years ago I got in the habit of singing the theme tune just before it plays. I nearly always hit it within a few cents. It’s become a daily challenge to nail it. Of course that’s not perfect pitch. I don’t see much point to trying to achieve perfect absolute pitch though. I think relative pitch is much more important.
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Yes, relative pitch is mighty enough to demystify music. But my daily life at the time of this writing goes like this: Originally Posted by Gabor
* I train myself with Perfect Pitch first thing in the morning after I exercise, when my mind is still fresh.
* I transcribe various parts of the day along with everything else in between.
* In the evening, I train myself with Relative Pitch.
* This should have been my life when I was 5 years old.
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My work with Perfect Pitch is basically successful. and my operations going strong. My first stint with my method in 2019 when I made the thread Why I think Adults can develop Perfect Pitch was successful. The only problem with my journey was that haters on Youtube and on this forum began bashing my Perfect Pitch videos as relative pitch. To be honest, that broke my spirits and I did not practice Perfect Pitch for many months. Then one day I snapped out of it, I began re-learning what I have built up in 2019, but this time practicing Perfect Pitch with an instrument. I am not making Perfect Pitch videos on Youtube anymore. This way no one can bash my main Perfect pitch practice anymore. This time no one can stop me except myself, and now I am moving forward to completing my goal and my perfect pitch program. Originally Posted by Lobomov
You've already have a thread that deals with this .. You've been at it for almost two years. How is it working out for you?
Why I think Adults can develop Perfect Pitch
Once I develop perfect pitch, I plan to study online software engineering and develop a software or app for Perfect Pitch using my learning style that I discovered on my own.
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You know what .. It's 2020 .. Life is hard .. We don't really care about whatever you choose to spend your time on. We just don't understand why you bother, when you instead could be spending time on actually learning tunes and playing. Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
Here is a dude that actually has perfect pitch arguing that ear training is a waste of time.
May I suggest jumping to 59:57
Anyways .. what ever you choose to do, good luck with it and hope you have fun.Last edited by Lobomov; 12-20-2020 at 10:48 PM.
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People play with the meaning of perfect pitch. What I've stuck with is perfect pitch is something you are born with, even that is iffy. Some say all people are born with the capability of perfect pitch, but no one notices so they don't get the basic training they need between ages 3-6 to develop it. So you don't use it you lose it. The there are people that develop ability to hear pitch accurately and I hear that called absolute pitch and that's what many Jazz cats work on and develop. Then the relative pitch that most people work on and develop the most musicians say is important and more important than perfect pitch.
I think the big factor is how good is your memory people with excellent memory usually do well in developing absolute or relative pitch. Sound is a complex thing to learn to remember. Also as we age our hearing changes and even those with perfect pitch start losing it once they hit their 50's. First you start hearing things flat then as time goes on the perfect pitch disappears.
Personally being old AF now and looking back now I think people today wait too long to get serious about working on their ears. I think people wanting to get into playing an instrument basic ear training needs to be taught right from day one. I like what Victor Wooten and other say that if someone wants to play music get them the instrument they want to play and don't give them lessons for a few months. Just let them play around with it, make sounds with it, see what they discover on their own, basically bond with it before starting lessons. Another thing I heard someone say recently and I think makes sense is, early in learning to have student learn some singing or violin two things that will help with learning pitch and playing intune.
The ears are everything in playing music the better your ears the better the musician, so start early.
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Yeah there's something which is undeniably evident as perfect pitch; knowing any note exactly as if an aural grid were placed on everything. People with perfect pitch have told me it's a blessing and a curse, unable to be comfortable with something that's slightly off, being aware if an orchestra is tuned to 444 A, being able to hear but being uncomfortable with microtonal music. It's an undeniably neural hard wiring thing. Strangely enough, it CAN be lost. Or I've heard first hand from people for whom this has happened. Gary Burton, well known educator and vibes player wrote in his autobiography that he had perfect pitch all his life. One time he got a fever and he was very ill, almost life threatening I think. When he came out of it, his perfect pitch was gone. Almost as if the grid had been erased. He relearned music and rewired his brain with a stronger relative pitch. Originally Posted by docbop
Singers (professionals) who know their instruments on a regular basis tell me they can find a note to the cent, by how it feels. (I remember someone telling me it didn't matter between a 16" and 17" guitar because it's only 1/2" either side and who can feel that? He was NOT a big player). That's muscle memory and can be really accurate.
When I worked on the QC line at a big name guitar facility, I was working with guitars ALL day. And tuning each of maybe 50 a day was part of it. I was able to tell the slightest inconsistencies in finish, neck depth, weight and balance AND I developed the ability to tell a note if it was even the slightest off. I could tune a guitar by feel, no strobe or tuner and I became dead on. All the time. From that, I could find any other note by envisioning the fingerboard.
But that's way different from what people with neural perfect pitch describe to me.
Of note, after I stopped working there, I gradually lost that ability over the course of the next 6 months. Now I can find tuning on my own instruments but it's nowhere as dead on as when I worked "on the line".
My relative(intervallic) pitch is really good and I use a tuner for speed and convenience now. I know I could sharpen my ear tuning if I wanted but I'm always eager to put those pitches to use in making music. Take it as you may.
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Someone who definitely knows what they are talking about:
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It's funny, I almost never watch videos, but I checked out the Christiaan Van Hemert video. I really agree with 95% of what he says in this video.
It is very tempting to want to think that being able to hear everything is sort of a pre-requisite for jazz musicians, but, there's tons of jazz musicians with less than perfect musical recall and it mostly doesn't matter.
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My daughter has what I would call perfect pitch and she was not born with it. She developed it around the age of 7 after taking Yamaha music lessons for about 3 years starting at 4, which are similar to the Suzuki method and emphasize singing music before playing it using a fixed do solfege system.
Around that time, she started to notice people signing something in a different key and her violin teacher noticed that she could sing any pitch she was asked without any reference note.
So, I think it is wrong to claim that perfect pitch is something you are born with. Also, I think it is much higher in East Asian communities. Whether that is genetic or associated with speaking tonal languages is an open question. But they have done studies of speakers of tonal languages and those who are native speakers use a different part of the brain to process the tones than those that learn the language as adults which makes it easier for them to recognize these tones. So it appears that processing of sound in specific ways as a child can alter brain development in a way that can't be duplicated as an adult.
My conclusion from looking into this is that it is possible to develop perfect pitch during childhood for many, but unlikely as an adult.
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It seems that 0.01% of musicians care about that topic. That means the video is badly constructed. The bottom line should come first or no one cares. Again. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Hey he’s new to YouTube. But one can assume that most people are not sufficiently interested to do what is necessary to form an informed opinion on anything. There’s not really a bottom line.
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Re: Hemert; I’ve never coveted perfect pitch. I’ve known several people who have it and it always seemed like a pain in the bum.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
They might be doing it wrong.
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It is hard to make a conversation this way. You quote my post, then not even remotely answer the multiple thoughts in it, instead writing and repeating total uncorrelated things, mainly again in the center of You. Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
Yes, relative pitch is mighty enough to demystify music. But my daily life at the time of this writing goes like this:
* I train myself with Perfect Pitch first thing in the morning after I exercise, when my mind is still fresh.
* I transcribe various parts of the day along with everything else in between.
* In the evening, I train myself with Relative Pitch.
* This should have been my life when I was 5 years old.
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I've instantly lost my confidence in this guy in the very first minutes. It is so incorrect to compare himself in his demo (which can be accomplished with medium relatve pitch, btw) with Dylan, who has way more convincing demos like what in this video quoted. Originally Posted by christianm77
Just a first thought, our man is not a correct arguing partner, which is always a bad sign.
Also the length of video a bit terrifying, but I am going to take the time, especially because you mentioning topic this second time within a short period.
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There's studies upon studies on this: adults cannot develop perfect pitch (for now). Btw, what you're developing is pitch memory, not perfect pitch. They are not the same. I don't think you even really know what PP is (most don't tbh). It's not just hearing a note and knowing what that note is without a reference. This is a tremendously watered down definition that causes tons of misunderstandings. This is also how the few studies that do "prove" adults developing PP generally measure if someone has developed PP (unfortunately, many scientist don't know enough about music to accurately describe and categorize what PP really is). The way people with PP hear is fundamentally different than those without. Not better, just different.
As someone stated above, you've been at this for 3 years and still no PP. I guarantee that if I tested you, you'd show no signs of having developed PP. Isolated note training exercises (which is what you've been doing based on your videos), does not accurately measure PP.
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Jason, there is one question asked over and over that you don't answer. Why do you want perfect pitch?
The musicians here are assuming (because you don't answer why) you want perfect pitch to become a better musician, so they try to explain you'd get a lot further as a musician concentrating on music instead of the regimen you are doing.
It's not hate, it's a failure to communicate.
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Sam Leak (great player!) did not demonstrate perfect pitch in that video. Single notes on his main instrument that he is well acquainted with is simply not the same as being able to identify context-less notes produced by other instruments with different timbres. Originally Posted by Gabor
Regardless, the human brain is remarkably plastic - both functionally and structurally - even (though less pronounced) among the elderly. Who the heck knows what it can be trained to do with a singular task given enough time and effort?
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Levitin, D. J. & Rogers, S. E. (2005). "Absolute pitch: Perception, coding, and controversies" (PDF). Trends in Cognitive Sciences. 9 (1): 26–33. doi:10.1016/j.tics.2004.11.007. PMID 15639438. S2CID 15346652. Archived from the original (PDF) on March 22, 2006. Retrieved June 11, 2006.
Wiki had this reference. The wiki summary is, no, nobody has ever demonstrated that they learned absolute pitch defined, apparently, as the ability to identify a note without a reference tone.
BTW, if that's not a good definition, please supply one, that says what absolute pitch is, not just what it isn't.
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Here's the full article (thanks Alexandra!): https://sci-hub.st/10.1016/j.tics.2004.11.007 Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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In terms of ear training, it is possible to develop great skill as an adult in relative pitch and be able to recognise complex clusters of notes by ear. Charles Banacos trained students to recognise clusters of 7-8 notes with relative pitch (IIRC.) So those who trained to do that might be able to do the Dylan Beato video thing somewhat...but you would still need a reference pitch. Originally Posted by zdub
OTOH it is possible to have perfect pitch and not be able to do this - it's a spectrum. Not everyone with perfect pitch is Dylan Beato. (And obviously if you acquire this type of ear early in childhood that's easier, just like with languages.)
Anyway I believe the preferred term is absolute pitch; which simply means the ability to recognise pitch without a reference. The question is - can you develop (as an adult) a strong enough reference pitch from pitch memory (that most people have anyway to some extent) and use that in combination with a trained ear to have acquired perfect pitch (in effect)?
Sam seems to be saying.. well yes... maybe...
If you are looking to be Dylan in a few months, that obviously isn't going to happen.. but you can improve your absolute pitch recall (the caveat being I watched this video a while back and I certainly don't have time to that again lol.)
Anyway; I have no skin in the game. I honestly don't give a shit. But I thought I'd cite someone who actually knows the research in this area. Sorry if that bored people lol.
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Once the first note gets played, relative pitch takes over.
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The ability to (without any reference, not even a memorized one) hear and recognize a pitch for what that pitch is and divorce it from any contextual/functional reference. Some call this "pitch chroma". I'll put it to you this way: I knew someone with perfect pitch who could literally not recognize a piece by Faure because it was being played in a different key than the original. This person could however, tell you every single note played in the piece. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I wrote this to explain it to someone on reddit a while back:
Ok, so take this scenario:
You don't have perfect pitch and someone plays you a C and tells you its a C. Are you hearing the C?
No (as crazy as it sounds), you're not. Instead, you're actually imposing/hearing a function on this C and labeling that function as being a "C" after the fact. Your mind may hear that C as a tonic, which you would then label as C because that's the information you were given. In other words, you're hearing a tonic that happens to be C, not the C itself. This is why pitch memory is also referred to as tonal memory. Those without PP who "memorize" a C aren't actually memorizing a C - they're memorizing the sound of C assuming a certain function (in this case, a tonic).
This is why the those with good pitch memory often struggle to identify their memorized pitch(es) outside of isolated contexts. In real music, C can assume an almost infinite amount of functions. If you play an atonal piece for someone who has "memorized" a C and ask them to identify every instance of C as it occurs, they won't be able to (at least not without using their relative pitch) .This is also why it's so difficult for many to latch onto atonal music. Since we can't hear the intrinsic nature and sound of pitches themselves and since atonal music obscures function, our brains literally don't know what to latch onto.
On the other hand, those with perfect pitch can just hear the C as its own entity. They can divorce it from function and any other references. They can literally hear the "C-ness" of a C; the intrinsic sound properties that make a C sound like a C. No matter what context that C is placed in, it's gonna sound like a C. It's not a memorization thing - they just know. Those with PP hear fundamentally differently than those without it. Hope that makes sense."
Note: when I say "function" I'm not just talking about tonal functions. I'm talking about any combination of notes played simultaneously and how they affect the sound of the notes they're interacting with. If you play a cluster chord say, E F Gb, all those notes make each of the other notes take on a distinct flavor to us without PP. Those with PP can just hear the notes for themselves. This is also why people with PP don't innately have good relative pitch, they have to train it like everyone else.
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You're no fun. Originally Posted by emanresu
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A major component of Professor Harold Hill's Think System!! Originally Posted by docbop
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My own experience with this stuff, is that there are varying degrees of pitch memory and relative pitch and some people have more or less of them. I play with a very good pianist who says he doesn't have perfect pitch but "something close" and that does seem to be accurate: he can guess a key of a tune in the background right a lot of the time, but not all the time.
Familiarity with an instrument plays a role here: Most of us can probably hear a low D on guitar in dropped D tuning and be right about it most of the time. But would we be right about a low Db? for myself, probably not. I can hear that there's a note on guitar lower than an "E" and be right about that a very high percentage of the time, but identifying that note exactly from the pitch, I'd be wrong more often than not.
the people I know with true absolute pitch however, would literally never be wrong about this kind of thing: recognizing an "A" is the same as the color blue and they'd nail it perfectly every time.
There's not much evidence that perfect pitch really helps your musicianship that much, though. Certainly not in today's musical climate.
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Heh. Just tried this, imagined the guitar with 6th tuned to D. Sung, the note(octave higher of course), opened the tuner and voila! only a little flat from D.
edit: and after posting this, tried it again for fun. To see if I can actually nail the correct frequency.. now it was Eb. oh crap.
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Perfect or absolute pitch... Why even bother when there are so many instruments that have a fudge factor to intonate.
So, you got double bass, sax, singer and a guitar (that is slightly off tune always) - they should nail eachother's intonation. That perfect 442 kinda aint that important in this situation .. or whatever number people are agreeing nowadays.
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It’s highly possible to get a life.
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That's what I keep telling myself. Originally Posted by Litterick
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Will perfect pitch make me more popular?
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In jazz I would think the ability to remember many melodic phrases would be more desirable. A photographic memory of connected intervals or melodies. If you can memorize your fave songs and solos you will have a good skill. In Nashville recording circles the really skilled players can hear a demo once and be ready for a first take performance,it does not matter if the singer wants it in a different key then original demo. They transcribe with nashville number system its called, on a legal pad, often so any key is fine but changes need to be right first time cause top studio with A team players is big money.
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There’s a fabulous way to practice this which is; you listen to musical phrases, songs and chord progressions and you try and copy them on your instrument. Originally Posted by steve burchfield
Over time, you get better.
Imagine.
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The video mentions about Japanese music students with Perfect Pitch. My current learning style that I made breakthroughs with Perfect Pitch is the Eguchi Method, which is Japanese in origins. But I will investigate the Suzuki Method - what it is - how it works - like the Eguchi, I will omit the parts geared towards little children and add my own spin on it. Having adapted two Japanese methods for Perfect Pitch is a boost for my cause. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Stop telling me how to live my life. Originally Posted by Lobomov
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