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  1. #1

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    Hi,

    I guess this falls under ear training. I was listening to Tigran Hamasyan and I stumbled upon his track The Grid:



    For the life of me I couldn't figure out the time signature of the intro until I gave in and looked it up and it was in 4/4. I'm wondering, what in the pattern informs the listener that this is in four? It's probably fairly obvious to better players but I can't hear it. When I tap four along to it the figure is constantly being displaced until it resolves after 4 bars (I think). Maybe that's how we tell it's four. Pretty sure I never would have gotten there without looking it up though. My instincts told me it was 7.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Intro piano figure and 1st band section is organized in these groupings

    5 5 7 + 5 5 5

    or

    17 + 15 = 32 which is a multiple of 16, 8 or 4.

    Composers balance notational choices based on a depiction of how they conceive the sounds expressed in their composition or with pragmatic expediency of what will most easily understood by the musicians likely to be playing the music.

  4. #3

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    Reminds me of Konnakol which I've been studying - a lot of the pieces are mathematical patterns full of crazy groupings of fives and sevens in things like dotted quarters that sound bonkers complicated but sum out to be a multiple of 32 beats or whatever long (and you get to be all self satisfied and go 'Ta' at the end on the downbeat IF you get it right.)

    Is Tigran into it? I could imagine it being his type of thing.

    This would make a good simple Konnakol exercise. A challenge to get the syllables out at that speed of course, but that's part of it, singing those rhythms at speed. (Not that I can do it.)

    Good god I described a Tigran rhythm thing as 'simple'; I think I've had my expectations rewired haha. But then most Western music rhythms are laughably simple compared to what goes on in Karnatic music. Even stuff that's proggy for Westerners...

    I might try and do a quick vid of how I would go about practicing this using Konnakol tomorrow. Might be interesting to people?

    As a sidebar I know a lot of the Djent guys like Konnakol and Tigran has a strong Djent influence... A lot of that stuff ends up being in 4/4, Meshuggah and that type of thing.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Reminds me of Konnakol which I've been studying - a lot of the pieces are mathematical patterns full of crazy groupings of fives and sevens in things like dotted quarters that sound bonkers complicated but sum out to be a multiple of 32 beats or whatever long (and you get to be all self satisfied and go 'Ta' at the end on the downbeat IF you get it right.
    I've somewhat managed to use Konnakol while keeping the pulse with my foot but I have a peculiar problem of accenting whatever ever syllable that coincides with each tap so it ends up not really feeling like groupings if that makes sense. I think my failure in identifying this tune as 4/4 comes from never really playing music where someone in the band isn't spelling out the pulse somewhere in the music.

  6. #5

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    I haven't actively followed him but I remember years back when he won the piano Monk Competition, many writers commented on his across the bar rhythm sensibility. Are bar lines even real?

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by acidskiffle
    I've somewhat managed to use Konnakol while keeping the pulse with my foot but I have a peculiar problem of accenting whatever ever syllable that coincides with each tap so it ends up not really feeling like groupings if that makes sense. I think my failure in identifying this tune as 4/4 comes from never really playing music where someone in the band isn't spelling out the pulse somewhere in the music.
    This has been a real focus with my teacher.

    You keep the Tala with you hand, which is good because it develops rhythmic independence, and when working on a new rhythm you focus on junction points with the pulse to start with (so accenting which syllable aligns with the pulse) and only introducing the accentuation on 'Ta' once this is locked in. It's important not to skip this stage. So what you describe is actually quite important to do before moving on.

    Eventually you can gap the syllables so that you aren't going 'ta di gi ta ton' all the time so for the example
    'Ta Ta-Gu, Ta Ta-Gu, Ta Ta Ta-Gu, Ta Ta-Gu, Ta Ta-Gu ,Ta Ta-Gu'

    And so on

    It will help me if I can try and teach what I have learned. I'll try and do a vid!

  8. #7

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    The pianist's left hand makes it clear that the time signature is 4/4. There's a syncopation that is damn near a stutter which sounds awkward but does define the bars. I can't even remotely imagine playing it, however!

  9. #8

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    Well in that case the left hand right interplay is even more like Konnakol....

  10. #9

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  11. #10
    Thanks Christian. Super helpful. I'd never gotten at far as doing gaps before, lots to work on there.

  12. #11

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    amazing presentation cm77!...

    ali akbar khan college of music in bay area...zakir hussain was around....a real hub...i played south indian hand percussion with a couple of the student tabla players...many a nice memory...attracted like minded musicians at the time..played with guy that played with c parker/birds guys

    it's all one



    cheers
    Last edited by neatomic; 12-06-2020 at 09:57 PM. Reason: typo-

  13. #12

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    This analysis is worthwhile: