Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    I recently purchased a $99 ear training course on this website called Jazz Advice. The course is called ‘The Ear Training Method.’ Since I developed the skill of playing by ear, transcribing and making my own ear training tapes, I usually don’t buy ear training courses or software especially the expensive ones. But this one caught my attention and curiosity as there is a component in the course dedicated to chord tones ear training. I learned from past purchases of ear training resources is that it’s not a good idea to count your chickens on a single ear training course. One course or book is not gonna solve all your problems. But I gave this one a try, and long story short, the limitations of this ear training course, I explored it further like a freak by creating brand new tapes or audio files on my DAW.

    I just like to share this topic, because many of us, including me, would debate about the best ear training method or approach. Is it interval ear training? Is it more functional and contextual ear training? Is it transcribing? Is it learning more and more patterns by ear? While they are all vital to fortify a strong ear, most of the ear training resources out there made for these approaches are only scratching the surface from stuff that we should be really working on. We punish ourselves by trying to drill the intervals on our head, when we should be working with chord tones.

    Since 2019, when I listen to music, especially melody, I am able to recognize at least 30% of the melody of the entire song. This comes from hours and hours of transcribing, listening to ear training tapes, quizzing myself with various melodic patterns, and singing various pitches in any combination I could imagine. But after recognizing 30% of a melody of a song, it kind of stayed there for a while with no significant progress between the end of 2019 and June 2020. This lack of progress after 6 months led me to buy an expensive ear training course because I was already in silent desperation.

    After learning about chord tone ear training, I discovered something about my 30% melody recognition thing, while I was exercising and listening to music. I noticed that the times I am able to recognize a melody in a real song would usually occur frequently when the melody is played over the Tonic Chord or the I chord. Once the melody is played by a relative chord other than the Tonic Chord or I Chord, such as a IV chord, a II minor, a VI minor, etc - this would be the time that I usually go completely tone deaf in melody recognition. And the Tonic chord in an actual song is usually played roughly about 30% of the time, go figure! XD So in my relative pitch training, I am spending this whole time mastering all the 12 tones of the Tonic Chord and spent zero hours with the rest of the relative chords. I learned a tough life lesson and now I am currently making a brand new series of ear training tapes or audio files that deal with the chord tones of other relative chords. Don’t worry I will have all the chord tones for each relative chord and patterns for it covered comprehensively: All the relative chords of Major Keys, All Minor Keys Relative Chords, Modal Tonality, All secondary chords and the whole she-bang of it.


  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
    I just like to share this topic, because many of us, including me, would debate about the best ear training method or approach. Is it interval ear training? Is it more functional and contextual ear training? Is it transcribing? Is it learning more and more patterns by ear? While they are all vital to fortify a strong ear, most of the ear training resources out there made for these approaches are only scratching the surface from stuff that we should be really working on. We punish ourselves by trying to drill the intervals on our head, when we should be working with chord tones.
    In school, 100% of ear training was guess-work. I've been wondering about that for a while. Musician has no time to guess when performing.. and then figure stuff out... and then play.
    Proactive ear training is the boss. But it catches up so late. It really is a huge problem in training. Yet, probably so easy to address whatever goals people have.

  4. #3
    Chord Tones Ear Training Practice Update: June 20, 2020

    It's been a couple of weeks since I ventured out with Chord Tones Ear Training. What I can say is that learning the chord tones for each relative chord in the context of functional ear training is like having brain hemorrhage and I have to relearn all the solfege from scratch.

    I heard of Pat Martino that he mastered Jazz Guitar in 20 years then he had some kind of a brain problem, where he had to relearn the guitar from scratch and it was another 20 years for that.

    But I believe that compared to previous years, I am now in a brighter direction and it's just a matter of time before the sounds of the chord tones sink in. I may come back at this thread after 6 months or end of the year and make another state of the union for my ear training or make a brand new thread altogether. I may also come back at this thread if someone prompts me a response or something.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
    I recently purchased a $99 ear training course on this website called Jazz Advice. The course is called ‘The Ear Training Method.’ Since I developed the skill of playing by ear, transcribing and making my own ear training tapes, I usually don’t buy ear training courses or software especially the expensive ones. But this one caught my attention and curiosity as there is a component in the course dedicated to chord tones ear training. I learned from past purchases of ear training resources is that it’s not a good idea to count your chickens on a single ear training course. One course or book is not gonna solve all your problems. But I gave this one a try, and long story short, the limitations of this ear training course, I explored it further like a freak by creating brand new tapes or audio files on my DAW.

    I just like to share this topic, because many of us, including me, would debate about the best ear training method or approach. Is it interval ear training? Is it more functional and contextual ear training? Is it transcribing? Is it learning more and more patterns by ear? While they are all vital to fortify a strong ear, most of the ear training resources out there made for these approaches are only scratching the surface from stuff that we should be really working on. We punish ourselves by trying to drill the intervals on our head, when we should be working with chord tones.

    Since 2019, when I listen to music, especially melody, I am able to recognize at least 30% of the melody of the entire song. This comes from hours and hours of transcribing, listening to ear training tapes, quizzing myself with various melodic patterns, and singing various pitches in any combination I could imagine. But after recognizing 30% of a melody of a song, it kind of stayed there for a while with no significant progress between the end of 2019 and June 2020. This lack of progress after 6 months led me to buy an expensive ear training course because I was already in silent desperation.

    After learning about chord tone ear training, I discovered something about my 30% melody recognition thing, while I was exercising and listening to music. I noticed that the times I am able to recognize a melody in a real song would usually occur frequently when the melody is played over the Tonic Chord or the I chord. Once the melody is played by a relative chord other than the Tonic Chord or I Chord, such as a IV chord, a II minor, a VI minor, etc - this would be the time that I usually go completely tone deaf in melody recognition. And the Tonic chord in an actual song is usually played roughly about 30% of the time, go figure! XD So in my relative pitch training, I am spending this whole time mastering all the 12 tones of the Tonic Chord and spent zero hours with the rest of the relative chords. I learned a tough life lesson and now I am currently making a brand new series of ear training tapes or audio files that deal with the chord tones of other relative chords. Don’t worry I will have all the chord tones for each relative chord and patterns for it covered comprehensively: All the relative chords of Major Keys, All Minor Keys Relative Chords, Modal Tonality, All secondary chords and the whole she-bang of it.

    I'd like to understand this better. So, the idea is to identify each melody note as an interval starting from the root of the current chord?

    So, if the second chord of tune is, say, D7, and the melody note is an E, you want to be able to instantly know it's a 9th?

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'd like to understand this better. So, the idea is to identify each melody note as an interval starting from the root of the current chord?

    So, if the second chord of tune is, say, D7, and the melody note is an E, you want to be able to instantly know it's a 9th?
    You are thinking in terms of chord tones while simultaneously having awareness of the functional tones of the key.

    This is my argument. We have college, universities, and ear training courses limiting their curriculum towards the tonic chord only. When I began venturing with chord tones ear training WITH THE REST of the relative chords, it's like discovering a new world of sounds that I sort have passively encountered from listening to music for enjoyment. I am also guilty of wasting time with the tonic chord. But now I have finally woken up on my pitfalls in melody recognition.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
    You are thinking in terms of chord tones while simultaneously having awareness of the functional tones of the key.

    This is my argument. We have college, universities, and ear training courses limiting their curriculum towards the tonic chord only. When I began venturing with chord tones ear training WITH THE REST of the relative chords, it's like discovering a new world of sounds that I sort have passively encountered from listening to music for enjoyment. I am also guilty of wasting time with the tonic chord. But now I have finally woken up on my pitfalls in melody recognition.
    Sorry. I still don't follow. It's the definition of "chord tones ear training with the rest of the relative chords" which I am having trouble with. Might you provide a specific example (hopefully naming the chords and notes rather than describing them in some other way)? Thanks in advance for being kind enough to help.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Sorry. I still don't follow. It's the definition of "chord tones ear training with the rest of the relative chords" which I am having trouble with. Might you provide a specific example (hopefully naming the chords and notes rather than describing them in some other way)? Thanks in advance for being kind enough to help.
    Let me put it this way:

    Think of the Do or the 1 note of the scale. For simplicity, let's think of Do as C in the C major scale.

    Many ear training courses are basically stuck with the Tonic chord or C Major when presenting Do.

    What if Do or C in the Key of C is played against a II minor or D Minor? You will see or hear a radical change of the Do sound.

    What if Do or the note C in the key of C is played against a IV chord or F Major in the key of C? You will also see or hear the metamorphosis of Do transforming into a totally different sound entity.

    If ear training courses in school were like a building. Most ear training courses are basically stuck in the lobby and unable to go to the dining hall to enjoy the buffet.

    I'm spreading the word out with this revelation.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    I don’t understand why this is such a big deal? Every time I transcribe a solo or work out a chord voicing from a recording by ear, I do it primarily by recognising the interval or sound of the relevant note against the chord at that point in the tune, not so much by reference to the tonic chord (although I am aware of that relationship too).

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
    Let me put it this way:

    Think of the Do or the 1 note of the scale. For simplicity, let's think of Do as C in the C major scale.

    Many ear training courses are basically stuck with the Tonic chord or C Major when presenting Do.

    What if Do or C in the Key of C is played against a II minor or D Minor? You will see or hear a radical change of the Do sound.

    What if Do or the note C in the key of C is played against a IV chord or F Major in the key of C? You will also see or hear the metamorphosis of Do transforming into a totally different sound entity.

    If ear training courses in school were like a building. Most ear training courses are basically stuck in the lobby and unable to go to the dining hall to enjoy the buffet.

    I'm spreading the word out with this revelation.
    Thanks. I'm with you so far. How are you suggesting working on it?

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    I also am confused about what exactly it is you are doing... listening, and then determining:

    - the letter note name and accidental (if applicable) of a pitch with respect to a key?
    - the interval name and quality of a pitch with respect to a key?
    - the interval name and quality of a pitch with respect to a chord's root?
    - the scale degree of the pitch with respect to a key?
    - the scale degree of the pitch with respect to a chord's root?
    - the movable do solfège name with respect to a key?
    - the movable do solfège name with respect to a chord's root?
    - the fixed do solfège name?

    For example, in the key of G major, a tune (like Cheek To Cheek) that has a part that goes:

    3 x 2 2 3 x G6sus2
    5 x 5 5 5 x Am7
    6 x 5 6 7 x A#m6#5
    7 x 7 7 8 8 Bm7b13b9
    x 6 5 6 7 7 D#(7b13#9)
    8 x 8 7 7 x C7#11sus2

    Say you are interested in this pitch of the penultimate chord - x 6 5 6 >[7]< 7
    Which of these identifications are you striving to attain?

    F# - the letter note name and accidental (if applicable) of this pitch with respect to the key?
    major 7th - the interval name and quality of the pitch with respect to the key?
    augmented 9 - the interval name and quality of the pitch with respect to the chord's root?
    7 - the scale degree of the pitch with respect to the key?
    #9 - the scale degree of the pitch with respect to the chord's root?
    Ti - the movable do solfège name with respect to the key?
    Ri - the movable do name with respect to the chord's root?
    Fa# - the fixed do solfège name?

    When hearing this chord, if you wanted to capture the whole thing by verbally naming all eight identifications of each of the five chord tones, extensions, and alterations simultaneously, that would comprise forty names. Even if your speed of identification naming was near instantaneous, would you be able to hold the thirty names in your head? Which of these identifications is most important or most useful, and is even that subject to change depending on context?
    Last edited by pauln; 06-21-2020 at 03:00 PM.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I also am confused about what exactly it is you are doing... listening, and then determining:

    - the letter note name and accidental (if applicable) of a pitch with respect to a key?
    - the interval name and quality of a pitch with respect to a key? ...with respect to a chord's root?
    - the scale degree of the pitch with respect to the key of G major? ...with respect to the chord's root?
    - the movable do solfège name with respect to a key? ...with respect to a chord's root?
    - the fixed do solfège name?

    For example, in the key of G major, a tune (like Cheek To Cheek) that has a part that goes:

    3 x 2 2 3 x G6sus2
    5 x 5 5 5 x Am7
    6 x 5 6 7 x A#m6#5
    7 x 7 7 8 8 Bm7b13b9
    x 6 5 6 7 7 D#(7b13#9)
    8 x 8 7 7 x C7#11sus2

    Say you are interested in this pitch of the penultimate chord - x 6 5 6 >[7]< 7
    Which of these identifications are you striving to attain?

    F# - the letter note name and accidental (if applicable) of this pitch with respect to the key of G major?
    major 7th - the interval name and quality of the pitch with respect to the key of G major?
    augmented 9 - the interval name and quality of the pitch with respect to the chord's root?
    7 - the scale degree of the pitch with respect to the key of G major?
    #9 - the scale degree of the pitch with respect to the chord's root?
    Ti - the movable do solfège name with respect to the key?
    Ri - the movable do name with respect to the chord's root?
    Fa# - the fixed do solfège name?

    When hearing this chord, if you wanted to capture the whole thing by verbally naming all eight identifications of each of the five chord tones, extensions, and alterations simultaneously, that would comprise forty names. Even if your speed of identification naming was near instantaneous, would you be able to hold the thirty names in your head? Which of these identifications is most important or most useful, and is even that subject to change depending on context?
    My goal for ear training (which I discovered way too late) is to be able to have my fingers find the melody note and the chord, without having to think about it using internal language. I believe that this is the way players with great ears, who know a zillion tunes and can play them in any key, do it. They know what the tune sounds like and their fingers go there.

    Most of us can probably do this on a blues, rhythm changes and simple tunes. The challenge (speaking for myself) is to be able to do it on more complicated tunes in any key.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I also am confused about what exactly it is you are doing... listening, and then determining:

    - the letter note name and accidental (if applicable) of a pitch with respect to a key?
    - the interval name and quality of a pitch with respect to a key?
    - the interval name and quality of a pitch with respect to a chord's root?
    - the scale degree of the pitch with respect to a key?
    - the scale degree of the pitch with respect to a chord's root?
    - the movable do solfège name with respect to a key?
    - the movable do solfège name with respect to a chord's root?
    - the fixed do solfège name?

    For example, in the key of G major, a tune (like Cheek To Cheek) that has a part that goes:

    3 x 2 2 3 x G6sus2
    5 x 5 5 5 x Am7
    6 x 5 6 7 x A#m6#5
    7 x 7 7 8 8 Bm7b13b9
    x 6 5 6 7 7 D#(7b13#9)
    8 x 8 7 7 x C7#11sus2

    Say you are interested in this pitch of the penultimate chord - x 6 5 6 >[7]< 7
    Which of these identifications are you striving to attain?

    F# - the letter note name and accidental (if applicable) of this pitch with respect to the key?
    major 7th - the interval name and quality of the pitch with respect to the key?
    augmented 9 - the interval name and quality of the pitch with respect to the chord's root?
    7 - the scale degree of the pitch with respect to the key?
    #9 - the scale degree of the pitch with respect to the chord's root?
    Ti - the movable do solfège name with respect to the key?
    Ri - the movable do name with respect to the chord's root?
    Fa# - the fixed do solfège name?

    When hearing this chord, if you wanted to capture the whole thing by verbally naming all eight identifications of each of the five chord tones, extensions, and alterations simultaneously, that would comprise forty names. Even if your speed of identification naming was near instantaneous, would you be able to hold the thirty names in your head? Which of these identifications is most important or most useful, and is even that subject to change depending on context?
    We got ourselves a reality check! Wasted years ear training with the tonic chord only.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Thanks. I'm with you so far. How are you suggesting working on it?
    Ughh, I'm afraid you ask. I use a Digital Audio Workstation or DAW to create the audio files and I use a flashcard app to quiz myself with the sounds. You may have already seen me do this with my perfect pitch videos. The DAW is a little bit bang for the buck, but if you have an iPhone you can use Garageband to create the audio files.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
    We got ourselves a reality check! Wasted years ear training with the tonic chord only.
    Yeah, performing improvised jazz by ear is about as real as it gets.
    I'd still like to know answers to my questions on what you're doing?
    Which of the eight identifications are you making when eat training?

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
    Ughh, I'm afraid you ask. I use a Digital Audio Workstation or DAW to create the audio files and I use a flashcard app to quiz myself with the sounds. You may have already seen me do this with my perfect pitch videos. The DAW is a little bit bang for the buck, but if you have an iPhone you can use Garageband to create the audio files.
    What's on the flashcard while you're listening to what audio?
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 06-22-2020 at 03:47 PM.