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We had learned in college with respect to pitch that a good violinist (or any other instrument for that matter that can alter pitch micro-tonally) will play a leading tone sharp. For instance a violinist playing in G minor will play the F# extra sharp so that it "craves" to resolve home to G.
I suspect we guitarist may do this too by bending the string unconsciously.
I heard this tendency is particularly true in minor keys for some reason.
Fritz
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01-14-2010 01:18 PM
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That interesting. In just intonation a leading tone's frequency is 15/8 = 1.875 times the frequency of the fundamental, while in equal temperament it is 2^(11/12) ~= 1.888, so a little sharper already. Maybe there's some psychology (craving) happening here to want to push it even sharper.
Originally Posted by Fritzjazz
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The opposite approach is also quite effective. Vocalists, for example, dobro and bottleneck guitarists usually deliberately flatten the last note in a melody line then slowly sharpen to pitch (usually combining vibrato).
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03-09-2010, 12:28 PM #29Stringbean Guest
how do big bands and large orchestras tune up? does everyone use their own electronic tuner? how much time do they spend tuning up, on average?
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They usually tune to the piano in a big band. As far as the horns, the lead players will tune first, then the sections will tune to the lead player. In an orchestra, each section gets an A from the oboe, then tunes from there.
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03-16-2010, 01:43 PM #31Stringbean Guest
why the oboe?
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It is the hardest to tune.. Originally Posted by Stringbean
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Yeah, the oboe is the most susceptible to temperature and humidity changes.
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10-20-2011, 08:34 AM #34Nuff Said Guest
If you tune a guitar by ear it helps to develop an ear for pitch.
Electronic Tuners don't give you this great ear training exercise, so my advice is do not use an electronic tuner.
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I played in a Classical Guitar Orchestra. The people who tuned by ear where always out of tune with each other and out of tune with those of us who used electronic tuners. The guitars I & II were the tune-by-ear people and that made the whole group sound out of tune.
Most guitar players swear they have perfect pitch and accurate relative pitch, yet 99% can't tune a guitar by ear.
I've noticed, watching live music concerts on TV, that many rock guitarists have an electronic tuner either on the pedal board or back by the amps, and they use it between songs.
Keep that tuner clipped to the headstock or in the signal path, if only to check if the tuner is accurate.
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Maybe you've never played in a loud bar or restaurant?
Try to tune by ear in that situation.
I don't see that tuning a guitar does much for your ear... I did it for maybe 10 years before tuners became available at a reasonable price.
It's pretty easy you just listen for the pulses. That really doesn't do anything for important ear training tasks like interval recognition, chord quality recognition, chord progression recognition, melodic dictation, sight singing etc.
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I probably spent a year of my life tuning guitars. Tuners are awesome. I think that when you're calibrated, there's more wiggle room for pitch shifts between strings/instruments.
"I'll give you my tuner when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!"-The NTA
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I actually do think it's pretty great to develop a good ear for pitch, and to minimize reliance on the technology. Obviously in most performing situations it will be more practical to use a tuner, but it really is a good skill to hear intonation issues, etc.
My ear for pitch sux.
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10-20-2011, 12:22 PM #39Nuff Said Guest
Interesting replies, but you can't refute the fact that tuning by ear is a good ear training exercise, because you have to match the note pitches.
As a bonus, by regularly tuning by ear you start making fine adjustments as you play. I don't know if you have noticed but Guitars go out of tune quickly.
Yes, I agree, if you play frequently in loud environments a tuner is needed and over a long time you go deaf.
Nuff
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But trying to match an A at 220 to an A at 225 isn't the same kind of 'ear training' as trying to hear chord qualities, intervals, etc. Originally Posted by Nuff Said
For example, one can have perfect pitch but not really understand harmonic context. They could hear a chord and go "oh, that was a D bass note and the piano played F#, C, E, and G#" but not necessarily, without training, understand the context or what to do with those notes.
I think having an ear for pitch is great, but I don't think it's the type of ear training that is usually emphasized for jazz - or for high level ear training curricula.
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Tuning without a tuner is good but there are times when the machine works better for me. (example: My computer fans pitch makes it impossible to tune in the same room)
Another example is when 4 or 5 people are all tuning by ear and their ears seem to telling them different things. A tuner can be a good arbitrator.
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10-20-2011, 01:41 PM #42Nuff Said GuestI'm all ears, what type of ear training do you suggest, the Bruce Arnold method? Originally Posted by JakeAcci
My personal gripe, is that I think ear training is being neglected.
Being able to tune a guitar by ear is the ability to distinguish when two notes are the same, this has got to be a good thing for ear training surely.
Nuff
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To be able to hear whether two notes played simultaneously are either a half step or a unison is essential - and, to be crude, a beginner skill. But when you start getting to very tiny differences in pitch, like 2 hz or something, it's hard to hear it as accurate as the machines hear it. Originally Posted by Nuff Said
Well, I think everybody studying jazz should be able to hear... Originally Posted by Nuff Said
all harmonic and melodic intervals, ascending and descending
root motion for basic chord progressions
recognize differences in chord types by ear - M, m, dim, +, M7, m7, 7, m7b5, dim7, etc.
common cadences (iii VI ii V, VI vi I, vi bVII7 I, etc) and telling them apart
recognizing subdivisions and rhythmic placements of a note played within the measure (that was on "1+," that was on "4," etc)
And from there the sky is the limit...how many consecutive notes, melodically, can we hold to? If within a scale...4? 5? 11? if atonally, 3? 4? The sky is the limit for all above categories. How many times would you (we/I, whatever) need to hear a standard like "Days of Wine and Roses" to figure out the harmonic progression, without an instrument, if you (we/I) hadn't played the tune before? Things like that...are useful. Being on a gig and having to figure out what the hell is going on rhythmically, harmonically, and melodically, is much more essential than hearing minute variations of pitch
I haven't taken a college level ear training course so somebody else could chime in with more detail, but I practice that stuff by transcribing and trying to sing and solfege as much of it as I can. It's all the transcribing that really does it, I think.
Now, again, like I've said, it's still great to be able to hear minute differences in pitch as best as possible. No doubt. Being able to tune by ear is great - I kind of suck at it. Bassists do it all the time. It's a great skill to be able to do it as accurately as a tuner. Hell I knew a bassist whose ears for pitch were probably better than most tuners, that was scary!
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When I tune by ear, it has nothing to do with matching two pitches, it has to do with hearing the intervals of the guitar tuning, and it is very good ear training. Ascending 4ths, major 3rd, descending 5ths, etc...and in big band we all use Bb to tune together.
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 10-20-2011 at 02:30 PM.
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10-20-2011, 02:45 PM #45Nuff Said GuestGood point, I like to start with ensuring that all of the "As" on each string are in tune, there are lots of tuning methods, each can help develop the ears. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Because a lot of the Big Band songs are in Bb for the Brass players, it makes sense to tune to Bb.
The major thirds on adjacent strings are always a big problem for my ears, as we all know guitars are a compromise where intonation is concerned.
Thanks
Nuff
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Sure, but even with a fifth we're still talking about getting a note to be 1.5 times the frequency of another note rather than 1.48 times the frequency. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Again, it's great, it's important, but I do think it's a different time of ear-work that is objectively less relevant than hearing a fifth vs a sixth.
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I think being able to tune by ear is a good skill to have, but it's a very small part of what ear training actually entails.
I also think there's times where an electronic tuner is completely necessary.
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I'd recommend that all beginner guitarists get a tuner. They'll still learn to tune by ear (perhaps even faster if they know what an in-tune guitar should sound like) and they'll be able to spend more time playing music rather than tuning up.
Plus, I bet that if you could see how much of your life has been spent tuning, it would be quite frightening!
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I can definitely hear a perfect 4th, or 5th....rather use my Korg tuner any day
Sailor
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Had to tune for years before tuners were affordable. I remember grumpy people about them when they became affordable (30 dollars at 1984 prices?) I do think it is a necessary skill. I also can't for the life of me think why it is bad for a beginner to grab a tuner, tune up and HEAR an instrument in good tune. That has to have a great benefit to the ear also, a 4th grader hearing in tune. Pianists NEVER have to tune. Doesn't kill their ears.
Do they make Gore tex tuners?
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