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Let me briefly share my background:I am not born with Perfect Pitch. My parents are not musical. I began picking up an instrument at the age of 14, but did not train my ear until I was 21. I discovered the phenomenon of Perfect Pitch at 24 and the year was 2013. However, I did not have the right tools and methods to help me achieve my goals in Perfect Pitch and I was left floundering. Although, I continued practicing my relative Pitch. Fast forward to 2019, I finally have the right tools and methods to help me develop Perfect Pitch. I simply use a DAW and a flashcard app called Anki to quiz myself with the notes chords and voicings. I also use the Eguchi Perfect Pitch Method sans the colored paper stuff. The only thing I applied in that method is quizzing myself with one thing at a time. If I guess everything accurately then I add one thing the next day. If I made a mistake, I don't add anything until I get the current variables accurately. I did this day by day and now I memorized the sounds of 15 different chords and voicings. By the end of the year, I am confident that I will memorize 200 chords or more. As for the relative pitch, today I am able to recognize the sounds of various chord progressions and I play by ear bass guitar in my church. I am able to recognize the relative chords of chord progressions on TV and radio commercials and progressions of simple pop tunes. I am currently learning the sounds of common jazz progressions and variations of blues progressions. When it comes to relative pitch, the next thing I want to master are recognizing melodies and that's on they way. As for Perfect Pitch I started out from scratch, I wasn't born with it, yet had experienced success. Those people who say Adults can't develop Perfect Pitch apparently did not put an ounce of effort to practice Perfect Pitch. I am one of the anomalies out there who practice Perfect Pitch on a regular basis and experiencing success. The idea that Perfect Pitch can't be developed stemmed from an age old idea before computers were invented. In the 21st century, we have now the tools and technologies to help us attain Perfect Pitch.
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03-08-2019 10:19 AM
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Additional information:
For the Relative Pitch, I use an Apple App called Anytune to transcribe chords and melodies. Not to mention I also use the Charlie Banacos method.
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Everybody at all ages do HAVE perfect pitch. But only for a short amount of time after they heard the notes
Whether one has perfect pitch or not is a question of whether pitches are ingrained in the long term memory or not. Adults I believe can develop perfect pitch but not truly for long term and it'll require constant training to maintain it. Even then it may not be always there consistently and reliably. People who have perfect pitch, naturally possess that ability whether they like it or not.
I don't want to sound dismissive and I find your affords and results interesting but of all the ways one can make use of their practice time to train their ears, train their time or train other musical/instrumental skills, developing perfect pitch would be very very low on my list.Last edited by Tal_175; 03-08-2019 at 02:40 PM.
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When I was studying classical guitar with Aaron Shearer he made the remark to me that while having perfect pitch would be nice, he didn't think that it gave one guitarist an advantage over another.
Originally Posted by Tal_175
So spending time trying to develop perfect pitch was pretty low on his recommended list of priorities as well.
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Rick Beato has done a lot of research on this topic and has a son with perfect pitch. He gives some pretty convincing reasons why adults are unable to develop pitch.
It seems to me that if perfect pitch was a learnable skill, and therefore teachable, it would be taught in music schools.
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Relative pitch= useful
Perfect pitch= curse
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I wish I was so cursed. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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What concert pitch is your perfect pitch?
The frequency of concert pitch has varied over half an octave in the last few hundred years, only recently standardized 64 years ago as A5=440Hz (ISO 16). If any people have had perfect pitch throughout earlier history, their perfect pitch will have been with respect to varying frequencies of concert pitch, so there would be no one native perfect pitch the same for everyone.
What temperament is your perfect pitch?
There have been over 25 different temperaments of which a few are well known. Equal temperament is a relatively modern one, and likewise those that would have had perfect pitch would have to have had it in a temperament, so not the same for everyone.
How perfect is your perfect pitch?
If the test is naming the correct note name from presented pitch, the margin of error for a correct answer covers that note's frequency spread around its pitch frequency of +49.999... cents sharp to -49.999... cents flat, so the margin of error contained in every correct answer covers the span of a semi-tone.
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The last thing I want is perfect pitch.
When I was a student at the Royal Scottish Academy of Music we had an ear test - about 60 students in a room writing down intervals and melodies played on a tape machine (yes, I'm that old). Well, the tape was turning at slightly the wrong speed. All those arrogant sods with perfect pitch failed dismally, while those of us with decent relative pitch came sailing through. How we laughed!
Another reason I don't want perfect pitch is that I do not always play at A=440.
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I know that this discussion is about Perfect Pitch, but no one has benefited from relative pitch more than me. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
My recognition of relative chords is actually incredible. I may not know the actual key at first but I am able to recognize the movement of the relative chords in most songs in just one listen. And I'll only get better and better at that as I learn more complex chordal movements by transcribing chords. When it comes to relative pitch the next phase that I like to accomplish is melody recognition or interval and scale degree recognition in melodies. Transcribing is a proven method that was critical in my relative pitch development. I do store a file in google drive of all the chord changes and melodies that I have transcribed. The reason why I want to learn RP and AP simultaneously is that if I'm going to make music my livelihood; I don't want to spend my entire lifetime being mystified by the art of music and be oblivious to it. I want to take control and have authority over music and it starts by training my ears.
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I dunno if you are being flippant, but you are correct perhaps. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I knew a guy with perfect pitch. He was a piano tuner (among other things), but there was no doubt he had it. I watched him tune many a piano without a tuner.
He remarked to me once he hated noon. Because church bells rang at noon, and he said none of them were in tune. I never knew how serious he really was about this, but I can certainly imagine hearing notes out of pitch could very well be annoying.
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If you seriously want to learn and improve your musical skills, stop wasting time trying to acquire perfect pitch. It's not in any way necessary, for anything at all. You could spend the time you save by improving your relative pitch, or practising technical things on the instrument, or learning some repertoire, or studying motif development or...etc etc.
Why would you want to acquire perfect pitch anyway? I very much doubt if it's possible to acquire it as an adult, for a variety of reasons, but even if you managed to do it, what then? What practical value do you think it would bring to your musical activities, beyond providing a nice little trick you can pull out at parties now and then?
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Perfect pitch is when you throw a banjo in the trash and it lands on an accordion.
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I like your approach, but - as a Richard Galliano fan - I'd chose different instruments. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Bombard meets Bagpipe... I'd be 100% d'accord...
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Be careful.
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I don't understand your claim, Jason. You've not developed perfect pitch, and neither has any other adults (that didn't obtain it at young age). Perfect pitch means you have the pitches stuck in your head. They're instant and obvious, like colours. There is no thinking or guesswork involved. They can be recognised and imagined at any time, regardless of surrounding noise or harmony.
Nobody is born with perfect pitch, though the ability to develop it is probably genetic. The pitches we use are chosen by society and is programmed into young, growing brains. Most always through playing around with those pitches. Give yer kid a keyboard, the very best tool for kids to develop this thing
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That's good to develop but not unique. Good jazz musicians all develop the ability to do this. They know what the qualities of the chords are when they hear it- major, minor, dominant, diminished, dom b5, etc. Most can immediately recognize the extensions and tensions (6th, major 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th). They hear functional harmony clearly and know how to respond to it. Those of us who don't or can't develop this will probably not become "good" jazz musicians- we can play from sheet music, perhaps, but we can't sit in and play standards by ear without a chart. Until we can do that, we're not fully developed as jazz musicians. Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
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I only studied piano as a youngster for about 5 years, but pretty basic stuff. Besides a few group guitar and ensemble classes and many jam sessions with others, that is the extent of my musical training outside of countless hours of listening to (quality - my own interpretation) music, studying books, and and playing guitar for over 40 years. What is it when I hear a note (I used to play with a saxophonist, listening to recordings, etc.) from another source and I instantly hit the same note on my guitar? I don't know if I can do it all the time, and I don't really even try to challenge myself to do very often, but I can do it. No hunting. Just hear a singular note and nailing it. I will add that I couldn't tell you what the note is unless I back track and figure it out. I also can sing along to songs that I dig without sounding horrible. I just attribute it to having a decent ear, but is that a sign of perfect pitch or just dumb luck? BTW, if I tried to copy a solo from someone like Coltrane I would be beating my head against the wall. I don't have that type of discipline.
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It's not a dumb luck. It ain't a "pitch memory" either. We all can learn to nail a heard note with singing. And sing the heard chord tones without much mistakes and without knowing the key in advance, just sing along instantly. Takes average talent, not "perfect pitch". It's much much harder on an instrument but not impossible. At least it gets better with practice. The term "perfect pitch" kinda excludes all under par efforts. So that's why the attitude of "don't need it, useless" is so common maybe? I feel there should be better word for the the less lucky. Originally Posted by lammie200
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Wow, I really have to start up that Performance Ear Training Journal again.
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Hate to break it to you but...
You're not learning perfect pitch, you're just improving your pitch memory. Perfect pitch cannot be learned after a certain age, period.
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If you hear a note, you can sing it. If you hear a chord, you can sing most of the notes and don't add bad notes. It has NOTHING to do with the pitch memory. So, what would you call this? Technically it's closer to the "perfect pitch" ability than to "pitch memory" while not being perfect at all. Originally Posted by powersurge
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Someone who really knows what he is talking about (he doesn't have perfect pitch, his son does)
Rick Beato: "After age 6 you can't develop perfect pitch".
Last edited by fep; 03-12-2019 at 09:38 AM.
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I'm referring to the OP's experiment. Also, what your describing is pitch matching. AP/PP is when you can hear/reproduce a note and know exactly what the note is. No memorization or references involved--- it's instant and inherent.
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If the "pitch matching" has no reference point, then we can call it absolute. This is what we all can do when singing back the note we just heard randomly. It starts to work with instruments but never so reliable. I bet there is more to discuss about it but just wanted to point out that some of those skills(certain elements) are not too far away from common people. The "no-reference".. "absolute" parts even. Originally Posted by powersurge
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Not quite sure what you're arguing here but singing back a pitch one just heard and being able to sing A# on demand without reference are extremely far away skills. Originally Posted by emanresu
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Are they? Originally Posted by Tal_175
And my whole arguing is about them being closer skills than it seems at first.
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So, you listen a note in your mind, how does your vocal cords know how to tighten to produce this note instantly? Is there actual memory involved?
It's worth thinking about it this way and I'm just fed up with "move along, nothing to see here" attitude I guess.
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Seems that the grass always sounds greener on the other side. Perfect pitch certainly seems like a desirable asset to me. But... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I knew a woman (now deceased) who had perfect pitch. When she was young, I was amazed by her ability to sit down at the piano and play exactly what she'd just heard. She was strictly a classical musician, but I'd put complex jazz on and she'd hit it out of the park, limited only by how much she could remember at a time.
Fast forward 30 years...as she got older, her perfect pitch went out of tune (her doctors told her that the membrane in the ear had dried out), so that what she heard and what she played didn't match. Playing became disorienting to her and she finally had to stop.
I've known a few others with PP who were overly sensitive to pitches they heard in daily life.
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I think memory is involved. The way I understand it is that perfect pitch (whether learned at an early age or innate) is all pervasive in everything that you hear and observe. Hence the comment that it can be a curse. It is full on all the time. Relative pitch is on demand and relies on memory to work. Both are probably high forms of brain development, but they are very different from one another. I also agree that adults without perfect pitch probably can't learn to have it. I doubt that an adult can morph into someone that hears and recognizes all the sounds that they hear through out the day and place them in the musical spectrum. I am sure that I can relatively fake relative pitch. I am also sure that I do not have perfect pitch although I am a light sleeper. Originally Posted by emanresu
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It seems that the people that say perfect pitch is a curse are those who don't have perfect pitch. How can they know?
Let's hear about whether it's a curse or not from those who have perfect pitch. Anyone?
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Did you read the guy's story in post #16? Originally Posted by fep
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Perfect pitch is obviously no curse in itself. It may well be if you have ocd, or somehow imagine that only one concert pitch is tolerable. But that's more of an attitude/personality issue.
You'll find e.g. Jacob Collier playing around with different tunings, quarter notes etc, and having a really good time doing so. Even more colours at disposal Listen from 4:10 here:
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When I started this thread, I only memorized 15 chord voicings. Now I know 27 chord voicings after my AP practice today. I saw this Steve Vai video this past December 2018 and he talked about guitarists developing "a mental chord library" on the inner mind to supplement our creative vision in music. Now you know why I began doing this at the first crack of January 2019. The big picture is that I want to enhance my composing and improv skills. I'm already a good composer and improviser, but I want to be free from the chains of learned licks and lifted melodies and have my own voice. If I'm going to make music my livelihood, I don't want to spend my entire lifetime, being mystified by music. I want music to be familiar by ear and have authority and control with it. Originally Posted by powersurge
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Everything Vai said can be done with relative pitch. Vai himself does not have perfect pitch. Memorizing chord voicings is not what perfect pitch is. AP/PP is something those without it literally can't "grasp" or "understand". The way they hear is fundamentally different than those without AP/PP. They can separate function from pitches/harmonies and hear them as their own entities, in abstraction. It's not just the ability to recall notes, it's a cognitive phenomenon. No point in arguing though, you will find out down the line.
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How about you continue your journey and come back to us when you've succeeded in developing perfect pitch. Proof is in the pudding
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If adults could acquire perfect pitch, certainly Steve Vai would have perfect pitch. He doesn't. Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
Steve Vai:
"No, I don't have perfect pitch.
"I know a lot about it and I've tried to get it, but you can't. Perfect pitch - the potential for it is in [one in] about 30 to 50 people, and they've actually narrowed it down to a particular gene.
"But it could be developed intensely if it's there in early years. There's this guy Rick Beato, check him out and his son Dylan, I think he's 9 now.
"His degree of perfect pitch is so intense I didn't think it was humanly possible.
"He can hear double poly chords - meaning four chords in a row, and tell you every note and write them down. I can't do that.
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Not to break your ego or anything, but you admitted earlier that you have just begun to work on intervals and recognizing scale degrees in melodies, which is fairly elementary for any halfway decent jazz musician. And memorizing chord voicings isn't what perfect pitch is, and memorizing more won't give you your own voice either. Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
Frankly, it's also a little off-putting to state that without perfect pitch you'll be forever "mystified" and confined to licks. Sounds like you just want a big pat on the back for starting to learn what most of us already know.
I'll be more than happy if/when you prove what your click-bait title suggests.
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Well, down the line my relative pitch would be mighty by then and I would have memorized over a thousand chord voicings by absolute name. I'm not only training PP but a good chunk of my ET regimen is spent a lot on RP. But I find relative pitch too straightforward and not challenging, though it has a complexity of its own. I did not have a chance to learn Perfect Pitch during my brain plasticity period, because of my background (non-musical), exposure (non-musical), and upbringing (non-musical parents). If infuriates me of people like Rick Beato and a bunch of my music teachers in university, who parade of this vendetta and be like the Perfect Pitch Police making it look like my routine to be considered illegal for adults and it is for children and babies only. Most actual children out there are enjoying life playing Super Smash Bros. before they're dragged into next 18 years of school. I am one of the rare individuals out there, who dedicates their time developing Perfect Pitch and I enjoy it. Someone in college told me that there is no limit to how advance your ears can develop, but he doesn't have the final say that it is Perfect Pitch, I believe it is. Because I have met musicians who have played in band settings for many years and they are able to identify chords and scales in the music by absolute name. Most of the musicians I met that have played in band settings for many many years are able to recognize the key, chords, and scales of the music by absolute name. I for myself have experienced this. When I first had lessons with my jazz piano teacher, the first 5 standards that she gave me were in the Key of F and they would begin with a Gmin9 (R 7 3 5 9) voicing. A time just came that I developed familiarity with the sound of that Gmin9 voicing that it would pop out in any music when I hear that particular voicing. I have now 4 years of jazz piano lessons. I had similar stories with DMaj9th (R 7 9 3 5) and F6 (R 5 3 6 R) and the CAGED D Chord (R 5 R 3). I had incidents where these chords just popped out while I'm listening to continuous music (app) when I'm about to sleep. Since I experienced this unknown phenomenon with 4 chords that I've been playing for a long time, why not apply it to all the chords out there and see how it goes. That's what I'm doing right now. Originally Posted by powersurge
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You're forgetting that despite transcribing and publishing all those Frank Zappa tunes/solos ... Vai comes from a time before computers Originally Posted by fep
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I am fluent with the sound of the intervals and scale degrees - in isolated exercises and MIDI Melodic Dictations. My thing with melody is that I am fast at recognizing the intervals in isolated exercises but it hasn't really translated to fluency in real and actual music. Over the years, I have picked up which are the good and bad methods out there when it comes to ear training and what I can say is that transcribing is a great and proven method to help develop relative pitch in both chords and melodies. I am good at recognizing relative chords because I did it by transcribing chords in real music. Then I realize that I have experienced great success with transcribing chords that why not apply it to transcribing melodies too. And that's what I'm doing right now. I am still doing the isolated exercises because it features melodic patterns not found in actual tunes and it's comprehensive. But I look back 5-10 years ago, I began ear training with really bad ears. Practicing intervals and scale degrees at that time was hit and miss and I would make a lot of mistakes. I think I started out as tone deaf. Even though I can distinguish one tune to another, when I started training my ears I had a hard time. Fast forward to today, I notice that every time I transcribe a melody of a new tune, I just receive a great amount of information every time I transcribe. I would take effort memorizing the memorizing melodic patterns of every tune and solo I learn. Lather-rinse-repeat-transcribing is a process I enjoy doing day in and day out. Originally Posted by MarketTomato
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I excel at farting .. I'm world class tbh, unfortunately no one cares Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
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Keep those burritos coming!!! Originally Posted by Lobomov
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Jason,
Quick comment, learning intervals is totally opposite to the Charlie Banacos method of training your ear. I've studied his method, via Bruce Arnold, for more than 10 years... I lost track of the time. His method is about the sound of a note(s) against a tonal area (a key, a chord, a cluster, etc.)
I agree with most people on this thread, perfect pitch may not help you become a better jazz musician. When I studied Jazz Performance in college (and was a terrible guitar player) I met great jazz musicians. Most of them didn't have perfect pitch. The musicians that had perfect pitch weren't necessarily the best jazz musicians in the program.
There's nothing wrong with relative pitch.
In fact, I'm right there with you with the obsession to train the ears. I've said this countless times before, you can devote your entire life to training you ear and you can always find something new to learn aurally. I used to keep a journal up on the Jazz Guitar Forum called Performance Ear Training. I really want to start it up again, but I'm not sure what direction I want to take it in.Last edited by Irez87; 03-17-2019 at 01:03 AM.
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Last week I only memorized 27 chords and voicings by absolute name, right now March 17, 2019 - I memorized 35. To train myself with recognizing melodies I do it in 3 ways: I use a 4 note melodic dictation exercise created from a DAW. It will expand to 5 notes, 6, 7 and so on as time goes by. Using every conceivable melodic pattern within the G3 to C5 range, In the Key of C. I use once again the flashcard app Anki to quiz myself, same way with the PP exercises that I'm already doing. Another method I use is the Charlie Banacos method. I did not study with Charlie, but there's plenty of Youtube videos out there that teaches how the method works. Once again I use a DAW to create the exercises and quiz myself with Anki. Not to mention I also sing the solfege of the intervals and scale degrees fixed in one key. And the last thing I do is transcribing melodies. Of all the methods I use, I find transcribing to be very effective of receiving high information of the sound of a melodic pattern (s). My point is that Relative Pitch and Perfect Pitch should be practiced simultaneously. Originally Posted by Lobomov
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Couple data points here, one from the great Carla Bley: Originally Posted by unknownguitarplayer
Gary Burton, in his autobiography, describes losing his perfect pitch after some serious health issues he had.EI: Do you have perfect pitch?
CB: I did until a year and two months ago. And then it went instantly when I had some dental work done. I woke up from the operation, and I didn’t have it, so now I’m working on getting it back. I’m still a half-step off. I was a good maybe third off after I woke up after the anesthesia. Isn’t that horrible?
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Originally Posted by DonEsteban
To bad having perfect pitch can't pay your bills
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March 24, 2019 - Last week was 35 this week it went up to 45 chord voicings. I haven't faced adversity in my PP experimentation yet. However, I am starting to run out of distinct chord voicings and have to face the dreaded semitone root notes, such as distinguishing between a G voicing and an Ab voicing. I don't know how I'll do, but it might be my first learning curb and if I succeed with it, hearing the note of a toilet flushing is not that far behind. Originally Posted by lammie200
I am getting some funny posts that I don't play guitar and that I am in the wrong forum. When I signed up in this forum years ago, I was studying jazz guitar with Roy Patterson at York University. Today, I am taking metal guitar lessons via Skype with Scott Marano. I am an avid guitar player. I not only collect chord voicings but I also try to learn a lot of guitar pieces as possible. When it comes to guitar, I believe in learning something new every single day i.e. new lick, new solo, new riff etc. I believe that the more repertoire I learn, the easier the next song will be to master. It just so happens this post is about Perfect Pitch.
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Speaking of "Athletics"...the baseball season is underway and I would like to throw in a baseball reference pertaining to Perfect Pitch...March 31, 2019- Last week I was only 45 voicings - this week I reached the milestone of 50 ending with 54. This includes completing the series of 12 Major Triads in Root Position. Practicing Perfect Pitch is a lot like playing baseball or any sport you throw in there...one day you are putting on a clinic, guessing everything accurately...then the next day you swing and miss a lot and have empty trips...the beautiful thing of Practicing Perfect Pitch is that it gives an imaginary sport to non-athletes like me. Originally Posted by DonEsteban
No offense, but you seem to be in the wrong forum. This forum is about music, especially about playing jazz music - typically with a guitar.
You seem to be more interested in athletics. There should be more appropriate forums out there.
SCNR
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Yes, you don't get money from doing this...but unlocking a new note, harmonic interval, or chord voicing is like catching a new Pokemon!!! Practicing Perfect Pitch is like playing Pokemon Go!!! XD Originally Posted by Lobomov
To bad having perfect pitch can't pay your bills
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