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Originally Posted by lammie200
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04-08-2019 05:41 PM
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Perfect Pitch Update April 14, 2014 - Last Week, I only learned 63 chord voicings by absolute name. This week I unlocked 70 chord voicings. But what I like to share is that I had an epiphany with Perfect Pitch this week. Remember I told you guys that I am already dealing with semitone chord movement such as a G chord going to an Ab chord. Yes it's more difficult to distinguish...but not impossible..as I discover that each root note of the chord has its own unique color, flavor, or characteristic that separates a G chord from an Ab chord and so on. Also I was watching some Perfect Pitch Youtube videos this week and I found a kid born with Perfect Pitch. I've seen all those Dylan Beato videos and they don't intimidate me as I know that I'll rival his level of Perfect Pitch someday. Now back to this video...At the very end, the kid is being snarky and condescending by testing people like us if we have Perfect Pitch or not, which is offensive to the intellect. Anyways, in the test, I got everything right except the A augmented, which is a chord that I haven't covered yet, as I am still doing Major and Minor Triads. But that is a proof that adults can develop Perfect Pitch if they practice it.
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Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
Learning to let go is an important skill in life. Please think of this as humble advice from a much older forum member who is attempting to help your music improve.
The good thing is unlike bodybuilders who take steroids to improve beyond their genetic make up, you can't really hurt yourself with excessive pitch recognition training (other than losing lots of time).
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Originally Posted by medblues
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Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
Best of luck !
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Continue with your studies only if you are seeing the results in your playing.
I've committed 10+ years to relative pitch CONTEXTUAL ear training (not interval training) and the reason that I keep studying is because it continues to open new doors in my own musicality, particularly in my improvisation.
I ear train everyday, 3-4 times a day, for 10-15 minutes each session. However, all that practice is done when I am away from my instrument.
I practice hearing notes against a tonality, singing notes against a tonality, hearing dyads and triads and defining them by a reference note (C), sight singing, as well as other studies.
That said, these studies are specifically done before I touch my guitar or when I am walking, driving, or flying on a plane.
A HUGE part of ear training, that can't be over looked, is listening to as much music as possible. Immerse yourself in the language.
And, I might add, ear training should never take the place of tune learning or technical aspects of the guitar. Rather, ear training should compliment all areas of your study of music.
Like I said, I've spent more than 10 years studying the Banacos Contextual Ear Training Method. Ear training isn't a one and done process, but it's only useful if you actually use it in your playing.
Once I get to Seattle, I'll continue my Ear Training Journal. Feel free to check it out if you'd like.
All that said, your playing won't be worth dirt if you don't focus on rhythm, pulse, space, and dynamics. I practice my time with a metronome that only marks the measure, not the beat. That said, rhythm, pulse, space, and dynamics can only be really ingrained through listening to people play. That's true in all music, whether it be bluegrass, blues, funk, gospel, classical, jazz, or hip hop.
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Originally Posted by Irez87
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Originally Posted by medblues
Perfect Pitch exercises created by me:
Single Notes - 5 min
Two Notes - 5 min
Three four five six seven notes etc - coming soon
Triads - 5 min
Voicing Studies 1 - 10 min
Voicing Studies 2 - 10 min (optional if I have an off day with the other categories)
Voicings 1 - 15 min (There's like 34 chords in here) (My limit is 50)
Voicings 2 - coming soon
Guess the Key - 5 min (This is my personal favorite)
Total - 50 min (sometimes it's less than that)
I don't even spend an hour with Perfect Pitch. Once I have the new set of exercises, I will just do a rotation. The relative pitch is the one where I go crazy.
Charlie Banacos - 15 min
Melody Dictation - 30 min
Transcribe Melody - 5 songs (15 min each)
Transcribe Chords - 5 songs (15 min each)
Review Transcribed Melodies Quiz - 5 min
Review Transcribed Chords Quiz - 5 min
Practice songs for the church - 1 hour (I do this every weekend)
Total - Almost 5 hours
Not to mention I practice guitar for another 3 hours. Leaving me only 15 min to compose, jam, and other minor activities, then I call it a day. So if I wake up at 5 am I'll be done around 11 at night.(FYI I don't have a part-time job and I'm done school lol)
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I can't commit to those types of hours, what with a kid and a job...
But I did long hours at college.
Anyway, as someone who's also obsessed with ear training I'd give one piece of advice:
Practice in short intervals many times a day. 2 hours straight of ear training ain't gonna do any good.
That's why I limit myself to ten minute intervals 3-4 times a day (or more).
It sticks more. There's definitely a psychological explanation to it, but I don't have the time to search it up at this second.
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Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
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For transcription, perfect pitch could be helpful.
But for composition, whether it is planned out or done in the moment (improvisation), relative pitch is way more helpful. The sounds created in music always behave within a sonic context. That context could be a chord, a progression, a rhythm, a pulse, or even an "atonal" pitch set (I'm starting to believe that atonal music is actually a myth).
Like I said before, I understand your obsession with ear training. To be honest, I've gotten a lot of shite for my own posts about ear training over here at JGF. I think my post on Giant Steps made me quite infamous around these parts. Few people place a premium on developing the ear, and that's a darn shame. So I'm glad to hear of another person on the path to better his ears.
That said, I think you should find a mentor to guide your studies. From the world of Charlie Banacos, there's Gary Dial and Bruce Arnold (that I know of). I've studied with Bruce Arnold and I still keep in touch with him to guide my studies.
Maybe developing perfect pitch is a worthwhile endeavor for you. But don't try to reinvent the wheel and don't just find courses on the internet and wish for the best. Find someone who has already tread your path.
“If you want me again look for me under your bootsoles.
You will hardly know who I am or what I mean,
But I shall be good help to you nevertheless
And filter and fiber your blood.
Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged,
Missing me one place search another,
I stop some where waiting for you”
--W.W.Last edited by Irez87; 04-14-2019 at 10:21 PM.
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Musical activities always begin and end with the ear.
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I notice Bruce Arnold has products that claim to teach absolute pitch.
Has anyone actually got direct experience of developing pitch in adulthood? Apparently it comes in handy for Webern....
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I've never ever been after perfect pitch myself.. except a few attempts to decide if its possible to get it good enough to rely on this. Which turned out to be "hell no".
But after some years of relative pitch training, occasionally I have been nailing a note or chord on guitar by ear without any established reference. Picked it up, and felt confident that the note or chord is the right one against what was played. So the physical guitar playing has got closer to what the vocal cords are already doing by default.
So I know for my own experience that the topic is not as black&white as they tend to paint it in.
Furthermore - "don't do this, instead do that" in practice can be bad advice when the practice time is "relative" also. All it takes is to get enthused and the time magically becomes well spent anyways. Honestly, I've done some dumb routines but never ever regret any of that. And few of those even became useful much later. The point is - we got so many years with the guitar. That means a lot of hours for experimenting and side quests. That's true even when we got very limited time in each day.Last edited by emanresu; 04-15-2019 at 09:05 AM.
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Would you rather pay to see a musician who spent the last five years developing perfect pitch and solfege or one that used that time to work on their pulse, rhythm, command on harmony, improvisation devices, story telling, learning tunes, studying masters, playing with other musicians etc.
There is always opportunity cost associated with how you spend your valuable practice time.
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There is valuable practice time that no one can argue against having to spend it wisely.
And then some lucky people have more. For experimentation. It boggles me how people can go on literally bashing even the idea of trying it out. This makes no sense to me.
edit: sorry for the wrong usage of the term "literally"
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The more details we perceive about the music we are playing, studying or casually listening to,
the better prepared we are to make a musical contribution. The ability to hear isolated notes/chords
doesn't preclude also understanding musical context. The ability to hear notes in a context doesn't
preclude hearing individual notes/chords once the tonal area is confirmed.
There are many musical details to listen for beyond the notes. These include rhythm, form, dynamics,
tone color, phrasing/articulation, the silences, being aware of what is not there, etc.
The ability to hear, regardless of category is exceptionally important.
For me, I developed what I like to call "imperfect pitch". In my first experiences in ear training classes,
I was often guessing, there was an element of luck each time I knew a correct answer. In years that followed,
I played a dirth of gigs that required learning full song lists from cassette tapes. At first I was just another fool,
plunking notes until I established a key center or an individual note or chord. Over time I noticed while listening
to music, I could hear the chords at pitch (most of the time, I was/am capable of being wrong). In a way it was
annoying, I would find myself mentally naming chords while listening casually, thankfully I learned to turn this
on and off. I would also have blank spots particularly with altered chords and harmonies not part of my common
vocabulary at the time. I would perceive it as an F dominant chord with something crunchy or an Bb major sound
with an interesting color. Around this time, I started to do a lot of arpeggio and chord inversion and harmonized
scales practice. I found this began to unmask for me an increased collection of harmonic sounds that were
formerly vague. At this forum, I have heard people refer to something they called "pitch memory".
This makes sense to me, I spend/have spent a lot of time around music. All this said, I have much room for
growth in the perception part of my musical development, a lifetime pursuit I suspect.
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Let me just remind that the purpose of posting a thread in the forum is to get a variety of opinions and points of views around on the topic. Some will disagree and state their reasons, some will suggest different alternatives, some will find what OP suggests a game changing insight. Forum is not a group therapy session where the role of the members is expected to be confined to patting the OP in the back and send words of encouragement.
Spending 5 hours a day on ear training and leaving very little time (or energy) for anything else rings false to me at a very fundamental level. Ear training should be grounded in practical situations. It should be done to address problems and short comings one experiences during performance or composition. Like technique, ear is not a goal in it's own right.
Do you want to be able to compose without your instrument but find it very hard? Are you having problems hearing chord extensions the comping instrument plays when you're soloing? etc.
When one works on ear to fix practical short comings, the process gets infinitely more productive. That's because, every activity becomes ear training. You start paying attention to that aspect when you are practising other things, learning tunes or listening to music. You are paying attention and being mindful.
Let's say you want to get better at hearing chord extensions. Then when you are learning a tune, you aren't just learning the chords, you start paying attention to how the extensions sound. You start doing activities around it. When you don't hear you sing them, try to identify them when you're listening recording or play the primary triad and sing the extension then play it etc. Then may be do 15 mins more targeted work here and there. The important thing is your'e very aware and conscious and it pops it's head all the time when you don't have it because it is a practical short coming.
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Thinking about alchemy and the obsession for making gold.. Now it's actually possible to make gold.. of course it's a tad expensive but still - entirely possible. Thanks to the knowledge about how the matter is constructed at the microscopic level.
Not too long ago the brain was just a lump of fat and no one knew anything about what's really going on there. Brain science is still in its infancy or just about to grow out of it. Who knows what will happen in a few decades from now. "not possible ever to learn perfect pitch as adult" - this could very well change entirely some day. Until it does, we're all just as good as the old school alchemists
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by emanresu
I don't know of a way to explain that this would actually be a legitimate contribution to an online forum without that coming off possibly condescending
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I reworded my post above a bit. I didn't mean it in a harsh way. But considering the controversial nature of the suggestion of adults ability to acquire perfect pitch, not having a single disagreeing voice in the thread would have been very disappointing. If that doesn't bring about a lively discussion then they might as well close the site
Last edited by Tal_175; 04-15-2019 at 11:17 AM.
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I liked OP's max-attitude and therefore I gladly would rather give kudos for trying. I've seen this mentality prevail quite a few times with stranger things than perfect pitch. He didn't even mention what his specific musical goals are and people assumed instantly he is doing it wrong.
edit: heh. right now after wasting so much time writing posts here while should have been practicing, I let my program play a random chord and I felt playing the root of it. Nailed that! Without any relative help. Haha
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Originally Posted by emanresu
I do chordal ear training by exporting audio from Ireal pro. When I'm learning a new tune, I find it in Ireal pro, while trying not to look at the chords, I set the tempo to something slow and export it. Then loop it in transcibe or something, until I get all the chords. You also learn about comping/harmonic devices that are employed in the app. You have the exact chords to check your transcription against after. I first try to identify the chord quality and extensions used (if any) before finding the key. Of course it's better to transcribe chords directly from the records but that's after I get faster doing it this way.
I do learn heads from the records always.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
That said (how many times have I said that here), I'm not going to discourage Jason's journey anymore because I know how my own excitement was received in these parts. I think this thread just brought back those frustrations for me. Everyone's journey in music is a little different. Embrace those differences because that's what makes music so interesting.
Do whatever moves you. Perfect pitch, or else wise.
Julian Lage Trio, Amsterdam, April 17 2024
Today, 02:19 AM in The Players