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If the "pitch matching" has no reference point, then we can call it absolute. This is what we all can do when singing back the note we just heard randomly. It starts to work with instruments but never so reliable. I bet there is more to discuss about it but just wanted to point out that some of those skills(certain elements) are not too far away from common people. The "no-reference".. "absolute" parts even.
Originally Posted by powersurge
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03-12-2019 09:56 AM
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Not quite sure what you're arguing here but singing back a pitch one just heard and being able to sing A# on demand without reference are extremely far away skills. Originally Posted by emanresu
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Are they? Originally Posted by Tal_175
And my whole arguing is about them being closer skills than it seems at first.
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So, you listen a note in your mind, how does your vocal cords know how to tighten to produce this note instantly? Is there actual memory involved?
It's worth thinking about it this way and I'm just fed up with "move along, nothing to see here" attitude I guess.
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Seems that the grass always sounds greener on the other side. Perfect pitch certainly seems like a desirable asset to me. But... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I knew a woman (now deceased) who had perfect pitch. When she was young, I was amazed by her ability to sit down at the piano and play exactly what she'd just heard. She was strictly a classical musician, but I'd put complex jazz on and she'd hit it out of the park, limited only by how much she could remember at a time.
Fast forward 30 years...as she got older, her perfect pitch went out of tune (her doctors told her that the membrane in the ear had dried out), so that what she heard and what she played didn't match. Playing became disorienting to her and she finally had to stop.
I've known a few others with PP who were overly sensitive to pitches they heard in daily life.
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I think memory is involved. The way I understand it is that perfect pitch (whether learned at an early age or innate) is all pervasive in everything that you hear and observe. Hence the comment that it can be a curse. It is full on all the time. Relative pitch is on demand and relies on memory to work. Both are probably high forms of brain development, but they are very different from one another. I also agree that adults without perfect pitch probably can't learn to have it. I doubt that an adult can morph into someone that hears and recognizes all the sounds that they hear through out the day and place them in the musical spectrum. I am sure that I can relatively fake relative pitch. I am also sure that I do not have perfect pitch although I am a light sleeper. Originally Posted by emanresu
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It seems that the people that say perfect pitch is a curse are those who don't have perfect pitch. How can they know?
Let's hear about whether it's a curse or not from those who have perfect pitch. Anyone?
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Did you read the guy's story in post #16? Originally Posted by fep
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Perfect pitch is obviously no curse in itself. It may well be if you have ocd, or somehow imagine that only one concert pitch is tolerable. But that's more of an attitude/personality issue.
You'll find e.g. Jacob Collier playing around with different tunings, quarter notes etc, and having a really good time doing so. Even more colours at disposal
Listen from 4:10 here:
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When I started this thread, I only memorized 15 chord voicings. Now I know 27 chord voicings after my AP practice today. I saw this Steve Vai video this past December 2018 and he talked about guitarists developing "a mental chord library" on the inner mind to supplement our creative vision in music. Now you know why I began doing this at the first crack of January 2019. The big picture is that I want to enhance my composing and improv skills. I'm already a good composer and improviser, but I want to be free from the chains of learned licks and lifted melodies and have my own voice. If I'm going to make music my livelihood, I don't want to spend my entire lifetime, being mystified by music. I want music to be familiar by ear and have authority and control with it. Originally Posted by powersurge
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Everything Vai said can be done with relative pitch. Vai himself does not have perfect pitch. Memorizing chord voicings is not what perfect pitch is. AP/PP is something those without it literally can't "grasp" or "understand". The way they hear is fundamentally different than those without AP/PP. They can separate function from pitches/harmonies and hear them as their own entities, in abstraction. It's not just the ability to recall notes, it's a cognitive phenomenon. No point in arguing though, you will find out down the line.
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If adults could acquire perfect pitch, certainly Steve Vai would have perfect pitch. He doesn't. Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
Steve Vai:
"No, I don't have perfect pitch.
"I know a lot about it and I've tried to get it, but you can't. Perfect pitch - the potential for it is in [one in] about 30 to 50 people, and they've actually narrowed it down to a particular gene.
"But it could be developed intensely if it's there in early years. There's this guy Rick Beato, check him out and his son Dylan, I think he's 9 now.
"His degree of perfect pitch is so intense I didn't think it was humanly possible.
"He can hear double poly chords - meaning four chords in a row, and tell you every note and write them down. I can't do that.
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Not to break your ego or anything, but you admitted earlier that you have just begun to work on intervals and recognizing scale degrees in melodies, which is fairly elementary for any halfway decent jazz musician. And memorizing chord voicings isn't what perfect pitch is, and memorizing more won't give you your own voice either. Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
Frankly, it's also a little off-putting to state that without perfect pitch you'll be forever "mystified" and confined to licks. Sounds like you just want a big pat on the back for starting to learn what most of us already know.
I'll be more than happy if/when you prove what your click-bait title suggests.
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Well, down the line my relative pitch would be mighty by then and I would have memorized over a thousand chord voicings by absolute name. I'm not only training PP but a good chunk of my ET regimen is spent a lot on RP. But I find relative pitch too straightforward and not challenging, though it has a complexity of its own. I did not have a chance to learn Perfect Pitch during my brain plasticity period, because of my background (non-musical), exposure (non-musical), and upbringing (non-musical parents). If infuriates me of people like Rick Beato and a bunch of my music teachers in university, who parade of this vendetta and be like the Perfect Pitch Police making it look like my routine to be considered illegal for adults and it is for children and babies only. Most actual children out there are enjoying life playing Super Smash Bros. before they're dragged into next 18 years of school. I am one of the rare individuals out there, who dedicates their time developing Perfect Pitch and I enjoy it. Someone in college told me that there is no limit to how advance your ears can develop, but he doesn't have the final say that it is Perfect Pitch, I believe it is. Because I have met musicians who have played in band settings for many years and they are able to identify chords and scales in the music by absolute name. Most of the musicians I met that have played in band settings for many many years are able to recognize the key, chords, and scales of the music by absolute name. I for myself have experienced this. When I first had lessons with my jazz piano teacher, the first 5 standards that she gave me were in the Key of F and they would begin with a Gmin9 (R 7 3 5 9) voicing. A time just came that I developed familiarity with the sound of that Gmin9 voicing that it would pop out in any music when I hear that particular voicing. I have now 4 years of jazz piano lessons. I had similar stories with DMaj9th (R 7 9 3 5) and F6 (R 5 3 6 R) and the CAGED D Chord (R 5 R 3). I had incidents where these chords just popped out while I'm listening to continuous music (app) when I'm about to sleep. Since I experienced this unknown phenomenon with 4 chords that I've been playing for a long time, why not apply it to all the chords out there and see how it goes. That's what I'm doing right now. Originally Posted by powersurge
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I am fluent with the sound of the intervals and scale degrees - in isolated exercises and MIDI Melodic Dictations. My thing with melody is that I am fast at recognizing the intervals in isolated exercises but it hasn't really translated to fluency in real and actual music. Over the years, I have picked up which are the good and bad methods out there when it comes to ear training and what I can say is that transcribing is a great and proven method to help develop relative pitch in both chords and melodies. I am good at recognizing relative chords because I did it by transcribing chords in real music. Then I realize that I have experienced great success with transcribing chords that why not apply it to transcribing melodies too. And that's what I'm doing right now. I am still doing the isolated exercises because it features melodic patterns not found in actual tunes and it's comprehensive. But I look back 5-10 years ago, I began ear training with really bad ears. Practicing intervals and scale degrees at that time was hit and miss and I would make a lot of mistakes. I think I started out as tone deaf. Even though I can distinguish one tune to another, when I started training my ears I had a hard time. Fast forward to today, I notice that every time I transcribe a melody of a new tune, I just receive a great amount of information every time I transcribe. I would take effort memorizing the memorizing melodic patterns of every tune and solo I learn. Lather-rinse-repeat-transcribing is a process I enjoy doing day in and day out. Originally Posted by MarketTomato
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Keep those burritos coming!!! Originally Posted by Lobomov
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Jason,
Quick comment, learning intervals is totally opposite to the Charlie Banacos method of training your ear. I've studied his method, via Bruce Arnold, for more than 10 years... I lost track of the time. His method is about the sound of a note(s) against a tonal area (a key, a chord, a cluster, etc.)
I agree with most people on this thread, perfect pitch may not help you become a better jazz musician. When I studied Jazz Performance in college (and was a terrible guitar player) I met great jazz musicians. Most of them didn't have perfect pitch. The musicians that had perfect pitch weren't necessarily the best jazz musicians in the program.
There's nothing wrong with relative pitch.
In fact, I'm right there with you with the obsession to train the ears. I've said this countless times before, you can devote your entire life to training you ear and you can always find something new to learn aurally. I used to keep a journal up on the Jazz Guitar Forum called Performance Ear Training. I really want to start it up again, but I'm not sure what direction I want to take it in.Last edited by Irez87; 03-17-2019 at 01:03 AM.
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Last week I only memorized 27 chords and voicings by absolute name, right now March 17, 2019 - I memorized 35. To train myself with recognizing melodies I do it in 3 ways: I use a 4 note melodic dictation exercise created from a DAW. It will expand to 5 notes, 6, 7 and so on as time goes by. Using every conceivable melodic pattern within the G3 to C5 range, In the Key of C. I use once again the flashcard app Anki to quiz myself, same way with the PP exercises that I'm already doing. Another method I use is the Charlie Banacos method. I did not study with Charlie, but there's plenty of Youtube videos out there that teaches how the method works. Once again I use a DAW to create the exercises and quiz myself with Anki. Not to mention I also sing the solfege of the intervals and scale degrees fixed in one key. And the last thing I do is transcribing melodies. Of all the methods I use, I find transcribing to be very effective of receiving high information of the sound of a melodic pattern (s). My point is that Relative Pitch and Perfect Pitch should be practiced simultaneously. Originally Posted by Lobomov
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Couple data points here, one from the great Carla Bley: Originally Posted by unknownguitarplayer
Gary Burton, in his autobiography, describes losing his perfect pitch after some serious health issues he had.EI: Do you have perfect pitch?
CB: I did until a year and two months ago. And then it went instantly when I had some dental work done. I woke up from the operation, and I didn’t have it, so now I’m working on getting it back. I’m still a half-step off. I was a good maybe third off after I woke up after the anesthesia. Isn’t that horrible?
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March 24, 2019 - Last week was 35 this week it went up to 45 chord voicings. I haven't faced adversity in my PP experimentation yet. However, I am starting to run out of distinct chord voicings and have to face the dreaded semitone root notes, such as distinguishing between a G voicing and an Ab voicing. I don't know how I'll do, but it might be my first learning curb and if I succeed with it, hearing the note of a toilet flushing is not that far behind. Originally Posted by lammie200
I am getting some funny posts that I don't play guitar and that I am in the wrong forum. When I signed up in this forum years ago, I was studying jazz guitar with Roy Patterson at York University. Today, I am taking metal guitar lessons via Skype with Scott Marano. I am an avid guitar player. I not only collect chord voicings but I also try to learn a lot of guitar pieces as possible. When it comes to guitar, I believe in learning something new every single day i.e. new lick, new solo, new riff etc. I believe that the more repertoire I learn, the easier the next song will be to master. It just so happens this post is about Perfect Pitch.
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Speaking of "Athletics"...the baseball season is underway and I would like to throw in a baseball reference pertaining to Perfect Pitch...March 31, 2019- Last week I was only 45 voicings - this week I reached the milestone of 50 ending with 54. This includes completing the series of 12 Major Triads in Root Position. Practicing Perfect Pitch is a lot like playing baseball or any sport you throw in there...one day you are putting on a clinic, guessing everything accurately...then the next day you swing and miss a lot and have empty trips...the beautiful thing of Practicing Perfect Pitch is that it gives an imaginary sport to non-athletes like me. Originally Posted by DonEsteban
No offense, but you seem to be in the wrong forum. This forum is about music, especially about playing jazz music - typically with a guitar.
You seem to be more interested in athletics. There should be more appropriate forums out there.
SCNR
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Yes, you don't get money from doing this...but unlocking a new note, harmonic interval, or chord voicing is like catching a new Pokemon!!! Practicing Perfect Pitch is like playing Pokemon Go!!! XD Originally Posted by Lobomov
To bad having perfect pitch can't pay your bills
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Perfect Pitch and Relative Pitch Update: April 8, 2019 - Last week I only knew 54 chord voicings, this week I it went to 63. The reason why it ballooned up so much within a one week time frame was that my jazz piano teacher taught me brand new set of voicings that I will wallow for a while. Not only that I have used the loops of my daw to create exercises of determining a key of a song and quiz myself on it. For my relative pitch, I also created brand new exercises using my daw. I was contemplating of how to make the music that I have transcribed to fortify it in my memory. The idea just lightbulbed in my head and I discovered that I can make mp3s of isolated sections where there is a phrase or a progression of real music and fortify it in my memory for good.
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So have you given up on developing perfect pitch? Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
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When you say you "learned" voicings are you identifying what they are by name and then singing back the notes that make them up? I may be the only one confused, but every time I have seen someone demonstrate perfect pitch they can identify and sing everything thrown at them. Is that what you are doing? Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
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Nope! Gonna develop Perfect Pitch for the rest of my life! Originally Posted by Tal_175
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