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  1. #1

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    Please take a look at the attached file. The song is from the real book & it has an example of the chords "Am7b5 & D7" in one bar, E7#9 in another bar, F#m7b5 in another and finally C7#5. These chords play a different role to the keys in the song, but what would those roles be & what would you call the chords?...can someone help me please
    Attached Images Attached Images Analysis of ALL THE THINGS YOU ARE-all-things-you-jpg 

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    They are basically 2-5-1’s. So Am7b5 then D7 are a ii-V7 into the G chord which follows. The E7#9 is a V7 going into the Am chord which follows. Just your standard dominant to tonic move which is everywhere in these tunes.

    By the way your first bar is mislabelled, should be key of Ab not A.

  4. #3
    thanks graham, but m7b5 chords are half diminished, so Am7b5 - D7 - Gmaj7 can't be a II V I

  5. #4

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    jibzy -

    It helps if you read the posts properly. Grahambop didn't say II-V-I, he said 2-5-1. Numbers can be major or minor. Then he said Am7b5-D7 was ii-V7 into the G, which is correct.

    No one's trying to diddle you. And he's right, ATTYA is in the key of Ab, not A as written in the first bar after the intro.

    One point about this tune is that often it employs what they call modal interchange. You can look that up but basically it means the ii-V are the minor version of the 2-5 going to the major chord - i.e. instead of Dm7-G7-CM7 it's Dm7b5-G7b9-CM7. It's a nice trick that gives a bit of flavor to the sound.

    The rest of your chart looks okay. But you better check.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by jibzy View Post
    I wasn't assuming Graham would diddle me. I was just asking his opinion...but thanks anyway
    It's not a matter of opinion. The chords and their function are what they are.


    (I see a lot of minor chords are written in uppercase rather than lower, i.e. VI rather than vi. That would be confusing too, if you want to be accurate about it).

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by jibzy View Post
    thanks graham, but m7b5 chords are half diminished, so Am7b5 - D7 - Gmaj7 can't be a II V I
    as the others have said, I was careful to say ii V implying the minor i.e. Am7b5.

    Doesn’t always resolve to the minor, can go to the major as here (Gmaj7).

  8. #7

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    Anyway, apart from all that -

    "Am7b5 & D7" in one bar, E7#9 in another bar, F#m7b5 in another and finally C7#5. These chords play a different role to the keys in the song, but what would those roles be & what would you call the chords?
    We've explained the Am7b5 to D7 to G.

    The F#m7b5 to B7 to EM7 is the same idea again in E.

    ***************

    The E7#9 is going to Am, it's the V chord (E7 - Am)

    The C7#5 is the V of Fm7, which is the next chord (C7 - Fm)

    ***************

    What do you mean 'what would you call' the chords'? I'd call them by their name. I'd describe their function as the ii-V to the I, or whichever it is. Unless you mean something different.

    It doesn't matter very much what the extensions are when looking at chords, they just give a bit of colour to the sound. Really the first line is Fm - Bbm - Eb7 - Ab - Db, which is all in Ab, then it's G7 - C, obviously in C. Then it repeats the same thing a fourth lower in Eb and G... etc.

    Look at it simply, it's easier to understand that way. Always look at chords in context, not in isolation.

  9. #8
    What I meant was would they be "passing chords, secondary chords, chromatic chords, borrowed chords etc"...that's all I was asking



    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Anyway, apart from all that -



    We've explained the Am7b5 to D7 to G.

    The F#m7b5 to B7 to EM7 is the same idea again in E.

    ***************

    The E7#9 is going to Am, it's the V chord (E7 - Am)

    The C7#5 is the V of Fm7, which is the next chord (C7 - Fm)

    ***************

    What do you mean 'what would you call' the chords'? I'd call them by their name. I'd describe their function as the ii-V to the I, or whichever it is. Unless you mean something different.

    It doesn't matter very much what the extensions are when looking at chords, they just give a bit of colour to the sound. Really the first line is Fm - Bbm - Eb7 - Ab - Db, which is all in Ab, then it's G7 - C, obviously in C. Then it repeats the same thing a fourth lower in Eb and G... etc.

    Look at it simply, it's easier to understand that way. Always look at chords in context, not in isolation.

  10. #9
    What class is this for?

    Anyway, I think you'll do better to try these search engine terms:

    Roman numeral analysis "all the things you are"

    Here's one: All The Things You Are - Chord/Melody, Analysis & Guitar Examples

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by jibzy View Post
    that's all I was asking
    Ah, well, you have to make yourself clear.

    All the 2-5-1's are just that. There's the modal interchange, already explained. Modal interchange chords are sometimes called 'borrowed chords'. The only passing (or chromatic) chords are the Dbm7 and the Bo, and possibly the function of the Cm7 although it's diatonic to Ab.

    Apart from that, see Matt's suggestion. Notice that the article uses numbers (6 2 5 1) and the lowercase names are on the scores.

    (I'd be interested to know what all this is for too, if you'd care to divulge it)
    .

  12. #11
    I'm new to jazz & I want to learn how to analyse songs, to make them easier for me to understand. There's no class or private teacher either


    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    What class is this for?

    Anyway, I think you'll do better to try these search engine terms:

    Roman numeral analysis "all the things you are"

    Here's one: All The Things You Are - Chord/Melody, Analysis & Guitar Examples

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  13. #12
    No class or teacher either...I'm new to jazz and I wanna learn it



    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Ah, well, you have to make yourself clear.

    All the 2-5-1's are just that. There's the modal interchange, already explained. Modal interchange chords are sometimes called 'borrowed chords'. The only passing (or chromatic) chords are the Dbm7 and the Bo, and possibly the function of the Cm7 although it's diatonic to Ab.

    Apart from that, see Matt's suggestion. Notice that the article uses numbers (6 2 5 1) and the lowercase names are on the scores.

    (I'd be interested to know what all this is for too, if you'd care to divulge it)
    .

  14. #13

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    Ok, but what about playing it? What do you think is the relationship of the analysis to the notes/sounds you'd use to actually play the tune?

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by jibzy View Post
    Please take a look at the attached file. The song is from the real book & it has an example of the chords "Am7b5 & D7" in one bar, E7#9 in another bar, F#m7b5 in another and finally C7#5. These chords play a different role to the keys in the song, but what would those roles be & what would you call the chords?...can someone help me please
    I don't know how much help it'd be but I have a thread and we look at a tune a week to be practiced and discussed in that week. The second week in January, post 293, we looked at this tune.
    Commit to a song a week. What could a serious student hope to learn?
    there might be some thoughts in there that may be helpful. You're also welcome to take part in this thread/group and your questions would be a nice jumping off point for some nice discussions.
    David

  16. #15
    The analysis helps in understanding the music theory structure. I can learn the songs slowly in order to play them right, but I want to figure out Chord tones, Rhythm, Voice leading, difference between the sound of chords etc...all these are a part of the melody


    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Ok, but what about playing it? What do you think is the relationship of the analysis to the notes/sounds you'd use to actually play the tune?

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by jibzy View Post
    Please take a look at the attached file. The song is from the real book & it has an example of the chords "Am7b5 & D7" in one bar, E7#9 in another bar, F#m7b5 in another and finally C7#5. These chords play a different role to the keys in the song, but what would those roles be & what would you call the chords?...can someone help me please
    You've identified them correctly as dominant functioning chords that go to tonal centres other than the home key. This piece is nice in the way it uses unexpected "adjectives" to highlight resolutions and temporary changes in the keys we hear. It's constantly refreshing itself in that way.
    Are you familiar with the different types of dominant progressions, chords that point to a resolution? They are quite interchangeable and familiarity of these devices will go a long way in describing the way we perceive tonal shifts and modulations.
    Sorry if this is an oblique comment, I'm trying to see where you're coming from.
    David

  18. #17
    Sure. I'll check it


    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    I don't know how much help it'd be but I have a thread and we look at a tune a week to be practiced and discussed in that week. The second week in January, post 293, we looked at this tune.
    Commit to a song a week. What could a serious student hope to learn?
    there might be some thoughts in there that may be helpful. You're also welcome to take part in this thread/group and your questions would be a nice jumping off point for some nice discussions.
    David

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by jibzy View Post
    The analysis helps in understanding the music theory structure. I can learn the songs slowly in order to play them right, but I want to figure out Chord tones, Rhythm, Voice leading, difference between the sound of chords etc...all these are a part of the melody
    So I take it you're playing chord melody as opposed to single notes over a backing?

  20. #19

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    Yeah, I'd be careful with over analyzing...recognizing movements like the ubiquitous ii V I is certainly helpful, but when starting out, identifying whole sections of a tune as being in one key can be a double edged sword...certainly, it simplifies things...but if you actually just play, say Ab and C scales over the first 8 bars...it's not really going to sound much like jazz.

    A tune like this...I'd write down all the guide tones (3rds and 7ths) and watch how they move from chord to chord. All the Things is a great tune to really go after playing the changes, because they move in such a logical way.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  21. #20
    I've had a look at progressions, but I need to understand "chords that point to a resolution"


    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    You've identified them correctly as dominant functioning chords that go to tonal centres other than the home key. This piece is nice in the way it uses unexpected "adjectives" to highlight resolutions and temporary changes in the keys we hear. It's constantly refreshing itself in that way.
    Are you familiar with the different types of dominant progressions, chords that point to a resolution? They are quite interchangeable and familiarity of these devices will go a long way in describing the way we perceive tonal shifts and modulations.
    Sorry if this is an oblique comment, I'm trying to see where you're coming from.
    David

  22. #21
    Chord melody first along with understanding key structure of a song, then single notes. I go over both in this order before learning a song


    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    So I take it you're playing chord melody as opposed to single notes over a backing?

  23. #22

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    Chords that 'point to a resolution' means just that. If you play a G7 by itself it doesn't go anywhere, it just sort of hangs. It's waiting for the next sound to resolve it, which is what happens when you play CM7 after it.

    Well, I suggest you go onto YouTube where there are several CM instruction vids for ATTYA. Also Matt's article above does the same. In fact, that might be easier.

    You can easily look all these sorts of terms up but 'voice leading' means the notes of each chord slip into each other nicely, you're not just playing slightly disconnected shapes willy-nilly up and down the board.

  24. #23
    it'll take time for me to learn phrasing when I have to play a solo. I'm slowly practicing scales, modes etc...thanks for the tip


    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Yeah, I'd be careful with over analyzing...recognizing movements like the ubiquitous ii V I is certainly helpful, but when starting out, identifying whole sections of a tune as being in one key can be a double edged sword...certainly, it simplifies things...but if you actually just play, say Ab and C scales over the first 8 bars...it's not really going to sound much like jazz.

    A tune like this...I'd write down all the guide tones (3rds and 7ths) and watch how they move from chord to chord. All the Things is a great tune to really go after playing the changes, because they move in such a logical way.

  25. #24
    Thanks for that


    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Chords that 'point to a resolution' means just that. If you play a G7 by itself it doesn't go anywhere, it just sort of hangs. It's waiting for the next sound to resolve it, which is what happens when you play CM7 after it.

    Well, I suggest you go onto YouTube where there are several CM instruction vids for ATTYA. Also Matt's article above does the same. In fact, that might be easier.

  26. #25

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    To follow up what Jeff said, try not to fall into the trap of playing 'intellectual guitar'. That is, if you must get involved in theory, make it practical and applicable. Don't get lost in a lot of conceptual thinking that's very difficult to relate to playing actual music.

    If you discover the guide tones, i.e. 3rds and 7s, that's fine but you may find it very awkward to make your fingers go there when improvising. Fine on paper but it'll sound forced and unnatural in practice. Far better to use your ears and play what appeals to your musical sense. Then you may well find that you're gravitating to those notes instinctively. Try it and see.

  27. #26
    I will. thanks for that


    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    To follow up what Jeff said, try not to fall into the trap of playing 'intellectual guitar'. That is, if you must get involved in theory, make it practical and applicable. Don't get lost in a lot of conceptual thinking that's very difficult to relate to playing actual music.

    If you discover the guide tones, i.e. 3rds and 7s, that's fine but you may find it very awkward to make your fingers go there when improvising. Fine on paper but it'll sound forced and unnatural in practice. Far better to use your ears and play what appeals to your musical sense. Then you may well find that you're gravitating to those notes instinctively. Try it and see.

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by jibzy View Post
    I'm new to jazz & I want to learn how to analyse songs, to make them easier for me to understand. There's no class or private teacher either
    Okay. That's cool. Again, I think "Roman numeral analysis" is a pretty good search term for these things. You'll probably find them all over the Internet. Look at YouTube especially.

    All the things you are is a "mother tune". Really important to know, for all the things it has to teach about jazz harmony, among other things. If you're new to this type of Roman numeral analysis, start with Autumnleaves, and then, fly me to the Moon. Those are like younger sisters to all the things you are. Not as sophisticated, haven't gone off to college and experience the world as much yet, but easier to digest. You'll see the patterns in all the things you are better when you understand those more solidly.

    "Borrowing from minor" is really important in a lot of these tunes. Write out all the scale degrees forcords in natural, harmonic, and melodic minor. Especially the first two, for analysis purposes.

    You should instantly recognize a minor 2-5, even if it's used in a major key and resolves to a major chord. You'll begin to see things like Vim and bVII -type movements as well.

    Join David's thread for sure. He is very knowledgeable , experienced , and ESPECIALLY... generous. You'll learn more in that TUNE context.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  29. #28

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    I have the fifth edition Real Book. I never noticed that the chords were spiced up here and there in ATTYA in the newer ones.

  30. #29
    Apparently decades ago before the real books got published, some students from Berklee had to arrange a bunch of jazz songs for an assessment; so they did & that's why so many jazz standards are transcribed with a slight difference, including ATTYA


    Quote Originally Posted by Binyomin View Post
    I have the fifth edition Real Book. I never noticed that the chords were spiced up here and there in ATTYA in the newer ones.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by jibzy View Post
    Apparently decades ago before the real books got published, some students from Berklee had to arrange a bunch of jazz songs for an assessment; so they did & that's why so many jazz standards are transcribed with a slight difference, including ATTYA
    Steve Swallow always had great stories, and his knowledge of the Real Book is from the source. Back in the day before the "published" version that is widely acceptable, I spent an afternoon just talking with him about the real book. This was, for a large part, Gary Burton's "book" or the list of tunes he and his working band used as the body of material they used. Add to this the hip changes jazzers used as working harmonic reference and you've got the first (with 6 revised editions and pages of corrections) REAL Real books, many tunes in Steve's own hand. Amusingly enough, after our talk, I had him go through my copy, give the seal of approval and sign all of his own tunes. I've since retired that book into my treasury of jazz history.

    Here's an NYU interview done by the department there (where Sco teaches) and he talks about these things. Real book conversation begins at 22:30

  32. #31

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    Suggestions to the original poster:

    - Figure out diatonic 7th note chords from melodic minor and from harmonic minor. (Don't rely on searching for this on the web - do it on your own so you're sure it's correct and that you understand it)

    - Only after that, explore tritone substitutions, secondary dominants, and dominant-diminished substitutions

    Some of the things others have written might then make more sense...