The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Which famous players (not limited to guitarists) didn't transcribe much, or at all? I've heard of Jim Hall, Peter Bernstein, and Julian Lage not transcribing very much during their development. I'm not advocating one approach over the other, I've transcribed a lot myself, but I'd be curious to see what other approaches people have taken to learning a Jazz vocabulary. Also, if there are any forum members that haven't transcribed much, how did you learn to develop melodic and harmonic lines/ideas?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Gary Burton

  4. #3

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    Frank Vignola said that he never transcribed a complete chorus. Just some phrases from it.

  5. #4

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    Since he supposedly couldn't read music, I'd venture a guess that Wes Montgomery didn't transcribe. I suspect copping licks, and learning solos from recordings, is far more common than transcribing, which I understand to be writing out the notes. Listening to recordings and learning solos from them by ear is probably an essential skill for any jazz musician, whether or not the notes are ever written on paper.

  6. #5

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    Carol Kaye transcribed a few Charlie Christian solos early on but didn't think it was particularly helpful. (She started on guitar, not the bass, for which she is better known through decades of studio work, but she's also a guitar teacher.) It's not something she recommends.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    Since he supposedly couldn't read music, I'd venture a guess that Wes Montgomery didn't transcribe.
    Well, I understated transcribing as learning a solo even if you don't write it. But English isn't my first language as you can see, so...
    Last edited by clebergf; 05-17-2018 at 04:14 PM.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by clebergf
    Well, I understated transcribing as learning a solo even if you don't write it. But english isn't my first language as you can see, so...
    I think that's the general understanding. Wes learned several Charlie Christian solos note for note. That, for most, is "transcribing," even if he didn't write it down.

    In this context, "learn by ear" might be better than "transcribe."

  9. #8

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    Jim Hall may not have transcribed much, but he also plays a Charlie Christian solo note for note on his "Dedications and Inspirations" album. Pretty sure Wes did that too, has nothing to do with the romantic notion that he couldn't read music or whatever. He sure as hell understood music.

    It seems we have one of these threads very few months. I dunno. Usually, it sounds like looking for an excuse not to put in work.

    Also, in jazz vernacular, "transcribe" means "cop stuff off records" whether you write it down or not. I know some people get edgy about that. Get over it. Jazz has it's own language.

    Sorry, I'm tired and crabby

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Also, in jazz vernacular, "transcribe" means "cop stuff off records" whether you write it down or not. I know some people get edgy about that. Get over it. Jazz has it's own language.
    Willie Thomas (trumpet player, teacher) is big on this. His teaching materials always have a part where he plays something and you're supposed to play it back. (There's no written score in the book / chart.) The point is to develop one's ear.

    And this isn't an "either you got it or you don't" thing. One can develop one's ear. It's best to start simple, with just a few notes. (The pentatonic scale isn't the worst place to start.) Play something and then sing it. Sing something and then play it. Learn a blues head from a record, or just the opening phrase of a hot solo.

    AND MELODIES. The more melodies you know, really know, the easier it becomes to hear what is happening in improvised lines. Great melodies are great lines....

  11. #10

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    YES! MELODIES!

    I see so many young players get frustrated with transcription, and inevitably the first thing they're trying to tackle is something like Coltrane on 26-2. Baby steps!

  12. #11

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    I saw an interview with John Scofield where he said he'd never done much transcribing, he'd pick up a lick here and there but he certainly hadn't made a habit of transcribing whole solos.

  13. #12

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    Jessy van Ruller.

    ...as I know he played note for not only a solo of early Pat Martino "Just Friends".

  14. #13

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    Transcribing seems to be a little like using a metronome in that some people swear by it and others swear at it.

  15. #14

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    I think the most important thing to take from all of this is--however you do it--train your ear, and listen to a ton of jazz.

    (FWIW, I've never transcribed and written down and learned to play at tempo a whole jazz solo in my life. I'm not "anti-doing that, " though. Now, when I was a kid I did this ALL THE TIME with rock/blues stuff I was into.

    But I've nicked hundreds, if not thousands of lines off jazz records. That's what I needed to do to get the sounds in my ear, and it's what I return to when I hear my playing and don't like the sounds I'm getting after. YMMV.)

  16. #15

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    I transcribe some solos or parts of them if I like them...it is a very good motivation for practising...

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Jim Hall may not have transcribed much, but he also plays a Charlie Christian solo note for note on his "Dedications and Inspirations" album
    Yup, I recall an interview where he said he only learned the solo to "grand slam" because he thought it was a perfect statement. Just listened to "bluesography." Story checks out

  18. #17

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    I have generally resisted transcribing because I find it laborious. I do occasionally figure out a short passage.

    This is not a recommendation. My vocabulary is far more limited than I wish it was, and that's probably because I haven't spent enough time transcribing.

    Or, maybe, it's that I didn't spend enough time taking ideas from records and figuring out different ways to apply them.

    OTOH, when I sing a line it's generally a better line than one I just play. So, I still have work to do to be able to get the lines in my head onto the guitar. Until I master that, transcribing won't help as much as it should.

  19. #18

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    I have a guy I study with that likes me to transcribe entire solos, and preferably play them in there entirety, especially with the recording. Which I oblige from time to time.

    But I get my best results by cherry picking phrases and licks that I like and click with me.
    Sometimes the shorter the line, the better. It will soon morph with other things and the rhythm will change for the situations.

  20. #19

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    Mick Goodrick never transcribed except to figure out specific things he wanted to learn specifically. He's had many students (Scofield, Wayne Krantz, Frisell, ... the list goes on) and he's always made it known that his approach was to spend the time devoted to finding your OWN way, approach and voice. Whether that included note for note transcription or not, he always emphasized "Know what's happening, don't play it if it's not yours. If you transcribe, change it until you own it." And spend your time learning how you put it together.
    A lot of great unique voices came out of that attitude.
    David

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Mick Goodrick never transcribed except to figure out specific things he wanted to learn specifically. He's had many students (Scofield, Wayne Krantz, Frisell, ... the list goes on) and he's always made it known that his approach was to spend the time devoted to finding your OWN way, approach and voice. Whether that included note for note transcription or not, he always emphasized "Know what's happening, don't play it if it's not yours. If you transcribe, change it until you own it." And spend your time learning how you put it together.
    A lot of great unique voices came out of that attitude.
    David

    David, if you think about it, this sounds like good advice for a singer. (Not that it's not good advice for guitarists too.) When I think of what makes the singers I love best, well, the singers I love best, it's that they have their own way of doing things. Two or three of them might sound god-awful together but individually, they're something.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    David, if you think about it, this sounds like good advice for a singer. (Not that it's not good advice for guitarists too.) When I think of what makes the singers I love best, well, the singers I love best, it's that they have their own way of doing things. .
    Yeah it's an unfortunate matter of reality that we are not allotted an infinite amount of time to learn the language. A singer identifies with the musculature, the physical instrument that is their body. The relationship is intrinsic. In the effort to acquire the lexicon, syntax and semantic content of jazz, guitarists can choose to learn extrinsically, by playing the instruments, the notes and the songs of those who came before, or they can respectfully integrate that knowledge but focus on the intrinsic development of their own aesthetic sense.
    It's a balancing act for sure, but personally, I'd rather know another player's approach but develop my own approach that fits me physically, rather than imitate to the point where another person's sound is more natural than the voice you never found. Sometimes acquiring another person's totality of approach can impart intimate knowledge of the canon but when it comes time for innovation, another person's sound, when deeply ingrained, is not always easily unlearned.
    Transcribe to learn, not to protect yourself from the truth that you CAN'T play. You can get there on your own. The people you admire certainly did.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Two or three of them might sound god-awful together but individually, they're something.
    YOu are what you practice. Put the time into singing as a choir or as an ensemble and you learn what works... even if it's what makes you the Shaggs.

    David

  23. #22

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    Here's Michael Brecker talking about how he learned different Solos that he liked from Sax , Guitar , Keys, Trumpet ...from recordings ....kind of forget them ( not a great memory) but they would come out in his playing a few months later ...

    Go to about 11:30 :

  24. #23

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    I think this is where the Tristano school thing of learning to sing solos is really helpful. If you put the sounds in your head clearly and precisely by ear by singing it, the wisdom of the lines will come through in your playing in a more organic way. If you specifically learn lines on your instrument it might show up as finger memory, but not make any musical sense in a context it shows up in...

  25. #24
    I read somewhere that Kurt Rosenwinkel didn´t transcribed so much.

  26. #25
    Mulgrew Miller in Mulgrew Miller The Book says
    One of the big differences between me and probably ninety-five percent of other players you hear on the scene–I’ve done almost no transcriptions in my life … A person might learn all of that and may not really know how it was put together. He just knows what the notes are and learns those notes and plays them … when you copy it off the record it doesn’t mean as much.