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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel
    If anyone reading this is tempted to apply their prejudice to the study of maths to music then I strongly urge them to grow up.
    Sorry, what?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sorry, what?
    Oops, that was not clear. Basically things like harmonising on the fly and transposing kinda require you to have your musical times table down, I find a lot of people saying glib things like 'music isn't maths' and it sounds great coming out of almost anyones mouth. Kind of like giving a child a cookie for refusing to tidy their room.

    D.

  4. #28

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    Yea... Freel...maybe the actual making of music is the answer... and the fake books are part of the problem.

    The other important aspect of performing jazzz....... there are many correct answers. Fake books are not answers, they are just tools, part of the study...

    Are you mixing up sight reading with memorizing the music from notation. Sight reading is being able to perform music from notation... live.

    Yea... analogies generally don't work that well, but they are fun.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg

    Are you mixing up sight reading with memorizing the music from notation. Sight reading is being able to perform music from notation... live.

    Yea... analogies generally don't work that well, but they are fun.
    I, to my shame have gigged out of a real book. Last time I actually enjoyed it, mostly shameful previously though. I've done a little bit of pit stuff but not for ages, last one was Fame the Musical, so a long time ago. It was rough but the band were nice, brass and distorted guitar is awesome.

    The Burton thing was about conveying meaning, things not physically on the page but with meaning that the page only hints at but which the skilled writer intends. To do that you need a hinterland, a variety of reading material and study.

    If I could have found a read through of a Radio Play or something where other people were relying on him I imagine that he has another gear and even more depth at sight and under pressure.

    In Scotland we have a TV sports commentator. called Jim Dellahunt, if you put his name on an auto cue he will mispronounce it, with alarming conviction.

    I do agree that a real book is more worthy of purchase than say a thirty dollar plectrum or super duper strings or whatever. I like the maths analogy because it applies to ME, I learned to sight read for classical guitar (and I'm OK at it) but all the answers are right there on the page so it was a shock the first time I had a chart placed in front of me and I embarrassed myself pretty badly.

    I still struggle with charts because I get upset when the voice leading is poor, some people can just play the chord they know with that name and like the sound regardless, I can't.

    D.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel
    I think a Fakebook is like the answers to a math problem.

    If you are learning maths then you need to do a little study, memorise some principles and then ,right away solve some problems.

    Then you look up the answer and if you got it wrong you try and work out why, what you missed, if you are stumped you ask your teacher.

    So in the beginning a fakebook must be used judiciously. Pick one tune, learn to sing it, try and work out the chords based on what you know. If you get stuck look at the answers in the book and work out what you missed, the mistakes you made. Same as learning maths.

    Same as learning any language really. You hear something, you intuitively understand it, you want to write it down/play it on your instrument/elaborate/comment on it.

    At a certain point you will actually have learned the language. And if you have solved enough problems and read widely enough you might find yourself in a position to spot errors in the books, or errors in the grammar of the original. NOT before you have done the work though.

    You will NEVER be in that position if all you ever did was to copy the answers out from the back of the book.

    Sight reading music is the same as sight reading text. There is the halting attempts by beginners, who might be indifferent to spelling mistakes and lapses in syntax and indeed meaning itself. Then there is the brash and confident and fine sounding drivel of newsreaders and others who place SOUND over MEANING and whose renditions seem accomplished to the casual listener but ridiculous and devoid of meaning to the cognoscenti.

    Then there is Richard Burton.

    Aim for that, I still am.

    If anyone reading this is tempted to apply their prejudice to the study of maths to music then I strongly urge them to grow up.

    D.

    So, 5 amateur but decent and enthusiastic musicians arrive at a rehearsal studio they've booked for a 3-hour jam session. They each know a bunch of tunes, but there are only 4 they all know. Gosh, what a drag to have to play Autumn Leaves, Satin Doll, Blue Bossa, and Out of Nowhere again, and again, and again ... Hmmm how could we solve that problem? I'm thinking it sure would be helpful if there were something, like maybe a book that had all of the tunes they know as individuals (and maybe some more) that they could share as a group. Dang, what a drag that nothing like that exists ...

    For the life me I don't get why people get so worked about the subject of fakebooks. They're tools.


    John

  7. #31

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    To that point, if the players are any good at all, they can see what the chart implies and still make good music, even if they're looking at a chart.

  8. #32

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    Hi John, I think I addressed your, rightful, concerns in a previous post, possibly whilst your were typing.

    I do think the real books are great when done well and as terse as possible and have enjoyed using most of them, although a lot of the Sher stuff is beyond me at the moment and I have little affection for those pieces anyway. I would also add that my favourites at the moment hasn't been mentioned and seems to be out of print.

    They are the Choro Brasiliero collections which I believe are on Scribd. They are about my level for sight reading and the simple clear harmony and mostly guitar sympathetic keys are GREAT for practicing two to the bar chord inversions and stuff.

    I see a fake book like the answers to past papers, great for checking. But also like tables for calculus differientation and integration, essential to get the job done in hurry and the go to for pros who could easily do them from scratch if they had the time.

    D.

  9. #33

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    Here it one, if anyone is aware of any copyright issues with this then please let me know and I will delete the link.

    It is not listed on amazon in the UK.

    http://ekladata.com/WM0rB1nX2eExNYHB...HORO-VOL-1.pdf

  10. #34

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    I’ve got bunch of fake books. I mostly use them to learn new tunes. If I were to buy just one, it would be Hal Leonard, Vol 1. It’s a great value.

    I don’t enjoy jamming or performing from fake books. I feel I’m much more free and fluid playing from chord charts, such as the iReal-pro Jazz 1200 charts.

    As others have said, for jams it’s usually best to use whatever your bandmates are using. But sometimes I’ll use my iReal charts while a bandmate is using a fake book and use my ears to correct any differences between them.

    I try to use the chord charts as a road map to the harmony, rather than playing the exact chords shown. I know enough about substitutions by now to make them on the fly.

    I also like to vary keys. Taking a tune to a new key can open up new possibilities. Transposing is instant in iReal-Pro. It’s laborious with fake books.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    I’ve got bunch of fake books. I mostly use them to learn new tunes. If I were to buy just one, it would be Hal Leonard, Vol 1. It’s a great value.

    I don’t enjoy jamming or performing from fake books. I feel I’m much more free and fluid playing from chord charts, such as the iReal-pro Jazz 1200 charts.

    As others have said, for jams it’s usually best to use whatever your bandmates are using. But sometimes I’ll use my iReal charts while a bandmate is using a fake book and use my ears to correct any differences between them.

    I try to use the chord charts as a road map to the harmony, rather than playing the exact chords shown. I know enough about substitutions by now to make them on the fly.

    I also like to vary keys. Taking a tune to a new key can open up new possibilities. Transposing is instant in iReal-Pro. It’s laborious with fake books.
    At the jams I've been to in the last few years, iRealPro seems to have replaced fake books, though some people I've run into have RealBooks on jumbo-sized tablets. Charts' main utility is a roadmap to harmony.

    John

  12. #36

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    Armageddon by Wayne Shorter on page 36 has to be in Bb minor and is based on Bbminor blues scale but there is no key sig with 5 flats for Bb minor. I suppose it doesn't matter if you can work out the key but I'd have thought there'd be a key sig? Sounds really cool sight signing the melody while playing the chords to this one, as they all do. I will have to look up what this iRealPro is you cats are chatting about.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio
    Armageddon by Wayne Shorter on page 36 has to be in Bb minor and is based on Bbminor blues scale but there is no key sig with 5 flats for Bb minor. I suppose it doesn't matter if you can work out the key but I'd have thought there'd be a key sig? Sounds really cool sight signing the melody while playing the chords to this one, as they all do. I will have to look up what this iRealPro is you cats are chatting about.
    FYI—I count 30 Wayne Shorter tunes in the iRealPro Jazz 1300 collection, but Armageddon isn’t among them.

  14. #38

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    As far as which book, what I'm seeing is guys coming in with tablets on which they have an app that provides access to multiple fakebooks. So they've got everything.

    The guys who still use paper use either the original Berklee RB or a legal one that is available in a smaller format, more like a big paperback book, but not 8.5 x 11. Maybe 5 x 8? These two books often differ, so there ends up being some discussion or adjustment on the fly.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    As far as which book, what I'm seeing is guys coming in with tablets on which they have an app that provides access to multiple fakebooks. So they've got everything.

    The guys who still use paper use either the original Berklee RB or a legal one that is available in a smaller format, more like a big paperback book, but not 8.5 x 11. Maybe 5 x 8? These two books often differ, so there ends up being some discussion or adjustment on the fly.
    I work with longtime pros who rarely need a chart, but if they do, they use irealpro either on a tablet or a phone. I too have that application on my phone for the handful of tunes that I do not know. I can look at the chart on my phone and after a few choruses, my ears will have the tune and the chart is no longer needed.

    The changes on irealpro, like all fakebooks are not always the best (or even correct), but it is a good start. One must be able to use one's ears to adjust as the tune goes along. Remember, jazz is ear music, not eye music.

  16. #40

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    Up to page 114. At 5 pages a week with 462 page book this will take a while.

    I like to analyze the theory. Namely the chord's key changes, secondary Dominants, chromatic passing chords etc. as well as the chord scale relationships. I can't work all of this out for all the songs though, such as Desert Air by Chick Corea (page 111), like this bit: F#-7b5, A-7, C-(maj7), Ebdim7, E-, G-, Bb-6, D-7b5 etc.

    What book would anyone recommend that explains all this kind of stuff?

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio
    Thanks for the replies all. For sure I will now get the real book and the other one I mentioned.

    The main reason I want the fake book is for sight singing. I enjoy doing this with "Melodic Rhythms for guitar" playing the chords while I sing the melody but have gone through the whole book 3+ times like that now. Really tricky starting off getting the different rhythms of the chords and melody at the same time. It is really musically satisfying when you get it though.

    For sight reading alone on guitar I need more complex exercises as I am only sight reading and not playing chords and singing at same time. Hopefully the other book will do that, it's all good.
    Finished today, page 462. About 1 year and 10 months later since that post. 1 piece a day on 5 days of the week.

    Start again now, from page 1.

  18. #42

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    The real book is great, but it's just a guide. I've been playing for 30 years and always find parts of songs in the book where you really need to think about voice leading because it won't help you with that. You'll get the most out of the book if you really know the circle - draw your own - and you know the interval construction of chords. There is a cool Berklee book "Jazz guitar chord dictionary". It's tiny but, really useful if you know where the notes are and the theoretical constructs I mentioned above. Anywhoo this probably goes without saying, but just throw on a cool tune you like and play. Cheers.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrudokas
    The real book is great, but it's just a guide.
    Fakebooks have many uses for many people. I bought my first one for $10 at 13 y/o in 1959, when I'd been playing for 4 years and was starting to gig at local parties and kids' dances. A hundred record albums would have cost me about the same as a new 175D (which was $310 in 1959), so records were out as a learning tool. That book and the 5 others I bought over the next few years gave me a foundation in standards, dance, and show tunes that I'd never have gotten from records or sheet music. They got me on bandstands and they kept me there, errors and all.

    I also bought as many records as I could afford, to help me learn and understand as many versions of everything as I could afford to own. So it was soon obvious that my books weren't 100% accurate and were even less often exactly as originally written. Where I found that what I knew was not exactly what was being played, I learned to lay back and listen for a chorus or two until I knew what changes were being used. And when the melody I thought was correct turned out to differ from what others were playing, I learned to play what the rest of the band was playing. But my books gave me a start. I wrote alternative changes / versions / melodies in the books (which I still use from time to time).

    When I got to my 20s I was playing chart gigs with better bands, and I rarely needed fakebooks. Good wedding & commercial bands keep current libraries of popular tunes along with every standard I ever wanted to know. So by my 30s, I knew many hundreds of tunes and held my own, although still learning new versions and variations along the way. But, as you all probably know, we were gradually supplanted by DJs for all but the most lavish affairs. This began shortly after I got married, so I left that circuit because the gigs were drying up, I had a day job that kept me pretty busy, and I had a wife and kids with whom I wanted to spend time. So I was left without an updated music library, and I lost touch with a lot of new music. I kept going to local jazz jams and gigging a few times a month at most, and fakebooks helped refresh my memory for tunes I hadn't played in years.

    Now that my kids are in their 40s and I'm retired from my day gig, I've been playing at least 2 gigs a week for the last 15 years or so. I play regularly in a small club, and we often get requests for tunes that I've heard many times and even played once or twice in the past. I also back up some of our touring acts, almost none of whom bring charts any more (or even know what charts are). Those who prepare at all send CDs, mp3s, or YouTube links. Fakebooks save the rest from singing a cappella. My collection, which now includes 18 electronic volumes I've bought over the years, has even helped me to make sure I'm playing the right bridge for the right song, to remember the odd extra beats and bars in so many tunes, etc. A few times over the years, I've surprised and embarassed myself (and my bandmates) by playing the bridge from one tune in the middle of another one or coming out of the correct bridge into a different tune from the one we started

    So fakebooks serve many purposes for us as our needs change with age and experience. I'm thankful for them, warts and all. None of us is perfect!

  20. #44
    I was a student at Berklee when the first Real Books showed up in Boston in the seventies. They had which record album many of the songs were from and new writers like Pat Metheny were happy to get their tunes played and make a name for themselves. I think its when they become a crutch its detrimental .

  21. #45

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    A lot of good advice in this thread. Songs in the Real Book are basically roadmaps and are a great place to start from. That said hearing them, especially with YouTube available to almost anyone with a tablet, computer, device,etc is fairly easy nowadays.

    One of the things is there are many versions of each song usually, but one that most players play. Also there things like Shout Choruses not shown in the chart itself. Also extended intros for many famous ballads ala Frank Sinatra ,Ella Fitzgerald, etc.

    You just need to listen a lot and play as much as possible, then like any language you'll eventually understand!