The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi:

    I can't find this online and right now I don't have an instructor to ask. I know how to read music. What I mean by that is that I am proficient in the First Position, Fifth Position and Twelfth Position. I've studied the Second Position, but I've never been fluent in it as I think it is less common but still valuable. I'm aware there is an Eight Position which might be valuable but the Oakes book does not teach it.

    Here are the questions:

    1. How many Positions are there in Position Reading or Position playing?

    2. Can scale study be used to be a better position reader? In other words, in learning the Seven Fingering Patterns of the guitar can that be directly applied to all positions that are used in guitar.

    Thanks a lot for your help. I'm sorry if my question is not clear. Ask and I'll clarify. Thanks again.

    Edit 1:

    I think there are Seven Positions in Position Reading.

    Open, Fifth, Twelfth, Second, Third, Seventh and Eighth

    Please correct me if I am wrong. I'm assuming these positions all correspond to certain keys.

    Thanks
    Last edited by Oneofthe; 08-16-2017 at 03:29 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    It strikes me that the better and better you read, the less you'd think about which position you're in. The lines and fingerings would cause you to adjust your position as needed.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneofthe
    Hi:


    Here are the questions:

    1. How many Positions are there in Position Reading or Position playing?

    2. Can scale study be used to be a better position reader? In other words, in learning the Seven Fingering Patterns of the guitar can that be directly applied to all positions that are used in guitar.

    Thanks a lot for your help. I'm sorry if my question is not clear. Ask and I'll clarify. Thanks again.

    Thanks
    Here are my thoughts:

    1. Fingering patterns are not helpful in reading. I know some, but I never think about them when I'm reading.

    2. I don't know what "position reading" is. I've never heard the term. The closest I can come is that certain keys may feel easier at certain positions, for example, if you're playing a melody with only notes of the C major scale, you might think about V or VII, although you're likely to have to move a bit. A good reader can play any key in any position, with, as usual, some stretching or shifting.

    3. For the novice, it's a good idea to peek ahead and figure out the highest and lowest notes in the passage you're about to read. That can give you an idea about where on the neck you'll need to be. But there are a lot of considerations in selecting where you're actually going to play the entire passage. Too many for this post.

    4. My advice: a graded reading method which includes all keys -- and play everything as written and then in a different octave. I used Colin and Bower "Complete Rhythms", but younger guys usually recommend Leavitt.

  5. #4
    This was a little bit of work doing this and a little frustrating but it did help me with a section of Tonal Harmony (textbook on theory) that I glossed over. So, I'm giving you what I suspect is the final product.

    Notes:

    1. These are all the Major Keys that include Sharps (#)

    2. Notice, it is all played on Position 2. Oakes does teach position 2 but does not give it as much emphasis as Open Position and the Fifth Position.

    3. Tonal Harmony does say a way to learn the Major Scale is by studying the Keys. I completely agree with this. This reinforces the idea to me that Scales are a learning tool to learn Keys, their individual sounds, and to better learn to read music. At this point I see no other value in Scales.

    Edits:

    1. Because of the way it was edited on the program E Major looks like F Major. There is only F# Major that uses sharps

    2. Tomorrow I'll do this for the Flat (b) Keys

    Here it is:

    How to Practice Scales: Scales and Reading Music Position Playing-wonky-scales-page-001-jpg
    Last edited by Oneofthe; 08-16-2017 at 04:46 PM.

  6. #5

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    I just toss it here again,
    diat.bmp - Google Drive

    Thats pretty much all that I need. 3 positions, not overlapping, easy overview. Thats kinda mental pic for the whole layout. I needed this to simplify the mess and to tie everything together - chords, arps, scales into one big simple thing. Doesn't mean I use only 3 fingerings - when playing ii7, I be minding just 2 segments at once and play in-between those. Much easier for the head than having 7 overlapping patterns.

    As reading skills, dunno. Never had the urge to merge patterns and notation really.

    For each their own of course.
    Last edited by emanresu; 08-16-2017 at 05:15 PM.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    I just toss it here again,
    diat.bmp - Google Drive

    Thats pretty much all that I need. 3 positions, not overlapping, easy overview. Thats kinda mental pic for the whole layout. I needed this to simplify the mess and to tie everything together - chords, arps, scales intoto one big simple thing. Doesn't mean I use only 3 fingerings - when playing ii7, I be minding just 2 segments at once and play in-between those. Much easier for the head than having 7 overlapping patterns.

    As reading skills, dunno. Never had the urge to merge patterns and notation really.

    For each their own of course.
    Thank you.

    I really want to see this but I'm afraid of linking out. Is there a way you can post it as an image if is not too much trouble?

    The way I do it is convert my draw file (I use open office) into a PDF which OppenOffice can do and then go onto a website to convert it into .jpg file then I post it from my computer.

    If you it's too much trouble I understand but thanks anyway.

  8. #7

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  9. #8

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    cons - easy to fall into comfort zone with only 3 fingerings. That's real bad and can bite later. The cure is to start playing in between them. Minding 2, not memorizing a new one. Nothing hard but at some point its a must-to-do.

    pros - ... countless. biggest one is that you can learn 20 30 chord voicings for one function in 30 mins and those are very likely to stick with you. Not a stupid advertising - its really that easy.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    Thanks, you made it as a .jpg but can you please make it as a picture just as I have done? Google Drive is notorious for spreading virus's. To post it as a pic, choose the icon on the message board and upload from your computer or do it as a url from a photo sharing site.

  11. #10

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    How to Practice Scales: Scales and Reading Music Position Playing-diat-jpg

  12. #11

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    Sounds like we're confusing positions with fingerings.

    Generally speaking, if a guitar has 20 frets it has 18 positions. (Open position though 17th position).

    When it comes to movable fingering patterns (no open strings) that cover all six strings, and that only repeat after 12 frets have been covered, people use different patterns or "systems".

    Some fairly common patterns involve either 3, 5, 7, 9, or 12 fingerings.

    It takes some experimentation to discover what you prefer.

  13. #12
    Sure. Patterns help. I just can't imagine that most players don't think of some basic reference patterns. For most of us, at the very least, it's probably something like C-major or G. You learn basic and then know where accidentals are from there. It's easier to get a grip on where EVERYTHING is when you at least know where SOMETHING is.

    Re. positional playing/reading up the neck, I have personally found the 2nd finger reference (that Kurt Rosenwinkel and Reg, here on the forum, advocate) to be very helpful. Basically made me realize I knew more than I thought I did. It's a physical reference rather than a key/root reference and is much easier on the brain IMO.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Sure. Patterns help. I just can't imagine that most players don't think of some basic reference patterns. For most of us, at the very least, it's probably something like C-major or G. You learn basic and then know where accidentals are from there. It's easier to get a grip on where EVERYTHING is when you at least know where SOMETHING is.

    Re. positional playing/reading up the neck, I have personally found the 2nd finger reference (that Kurt Rosenwinkel and Reg, here on the forum, advocate) to be very helpful. Basically made me realize I knew more than I thought I did. It's a physical reference rather than a key/root reference and is much easier on the brain IMO.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
    If we're talking about how a novice learns which note is where, then sure, if a pattern helps you locate them at first, I can see the point.

    But, when you know where the notes are, you have to look at a passage and find a fingering that works - if the tune is slow, lots of fingerings may work easily, but if you have to read a lot of notes quickly, it may require some forethought.

    Since the passage you're trying to read was probably not created with geometric guitar fingerboard patterns in mind you position your hand whereever it allows you to play the passage.

    I think the patterns are a distraction once you know the fingerboard.

    Of course, like everything else in guitar, there will be a great player who did it some other way.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    If we're talking about how a novice learns which note is where, then sure, if a pattern helps you locate them at first, I can see the point.

    But, when you know where the notes are, you have to look at a passage and find a fingering that works - if the tune is slow, lots of fingerings may work easily, but if you have to read a lot of notes quickly, it may require some forethought.

    Since the passage you're trying to read was probably not created with geometric guitar fingerboard patterns in mind you position your hand whereever it allows you to play the passage.

    I think the patterns are a distraction once you know the fingerboard.

    Of course, like everything else in guitar, there will be a great player who did it some other way.
    Yeah, I'm not talking about novice readers honestly. The best reader I've ever known advocates reference patterns this way. He can read anything basically, in multiple positions, in octaves etc - on the fly, from a chart, basically faster than most decent guitarists can even PLAY.

    And he always talked about having one basic reference approach to fingering as a starting reference. The idea was that once you had that together, then yes, you can pretty much finger anything the way you want. But that's after a tremendous amount of work put in, and not at all in SPITE of the patterns, but BECAUSE of a very solid knowledge of them as a basis for fretboard geometry.

    So many great players talk about high level playing in ways that almost seems mystical. So I really appreciated him being pretty straightforward with this approach, and for talking about fundamentals, and how one might approach beginning a journey to eventually getting there.

    It certainly bears out my experience with piano . Fastest most efficient way to learn to NOT have to think about fingerings so much on the piano, from my own personal experience, is to have a very good knowledge of beginning "proper fingerings". I found that by the time I have it really together the "proper way", I have facility to finger things basically any way I want. Great pianists don't worry with "proper fingerings" necessarily at all levels, but they put in a lot of work at the beginning and certainly work a LOT about basic patterns and reference fingerings.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-17-2017 at 06:26 AM.

  16. #15
    Hi, thanks everyone for the replies. I really appreciate your input and it means a lot to me.

    I started playing guitar a little bit ago and the instructor I had was really good. He was out of Berklee and was a professor at a local private college. The sense I got was that he offered lessons, through an affordable local music school, simply out of public service.

    When I came in I had known the Major Scale from a book called Guitar Grimoire Scales and Modes (I'm iffy on the book now). He was able to offer me these scale fingerings from the start to correct the Guitar Grimoire approach. The next thing he did was use this Major Scale to introduce the concept of intervals.

    But what surprised me was that he wanted to teach me to read music. His method was to hand me a sheet by a classical musician named Kreutzer and tell me, "it's in the Key of C." At the time I could not figure how to read it using the C Scale. Because of work and circumstance I had to stop taking lessons.

    Very soon after I discovered the Oakes book, which I highly recommend, and learned to read music based off of an approach of positions on the neck of the guitar. Here is a link for more information:

    Guitarists: Learn to Read Notes in 1st and 5th Position - Learn Jazz Standards

    Now, according to Oakes the positions used are Open, Fifth, Second, Third, Seventh, Eighth and Twelfth. Open and Fifth are best used for the Key of C (no accidentals). Twelfth is used for the highest octave. (remember a Jazz Box or Classical Guitar really only goes to a little bit more than the Twelfth fret). Now, the book gives a little bit less information on the Second position but that is more used for the Key of G and others with Sharp accidentals. The Third Position I suspect is used with the Flat Keys, but I won't know this until tomorrow. At this point I suspect the Seventh and Eight Positions are used for Sharp and Flat Keys, respectively, that lead into those higher octaves. The point is each position is related to a certain Key.

    Now, where this comes full circle for me is in discovering Scales can be used like my instructor tried to teach me at first; it can be used to help the reading process. I also think, and have been told, Scales help in hearing the unique tones of every Key. Right now my Scale Study is thirty minutes with coming up with these diagrams not being a part of my study at all.

    So, the conclusion I draw about Scales is that they are a learning tool. It may sound controversial but Scales are not a music creation tool at all. I know and you have every reason not to believe me, the best songs written never came from a Scale.

    Thanks again.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneofthe


    Now, according to Oakes the positions used are Open, Fifth, Second, Third, Seventh, Eighth and Twelfth. Open and Fifth are best used for the Key of C (no accidentals). Twelfth is used for the highest octave. (remember a Jazz Box or Classical Guitar really only goes to a little bit more than the Twelfth fret). Now, the book gives a little bit less information on the Second position but that is more used for the Key of G and others with Sharp accidentals. The Third Position I suspect is used with the Flat Keys, but I won't know this until tomorrow. At this point I suspect the Seventh and Eight Positions are used for Sharp and Flat Keys, respectively, that lead into those higher octaves. The point is each position is related to a certain Key.


    So, the conclusion I draw about Scales is that they are a learning tool. It may sound controversial but Scales are not a music creation tool at all. I know and you have every reason not to believe me, the best songs written never came from a Scale.
    No offense but there is some demonstrably incorrect info there, or at least some easily debatable info.

    You need to develop the notion of "area" in addition to position. Think of an area as "a position plus or minus one fret".

    So, for the areas around the positions you mentioned above you need to be able to play in all 12 keys, for all scales. (diatonic, symmetric, pentatonic, blues, etc).


    Now, regarding music coming from scales or not, well, most compositions from the last few centuries are firmly rooted in tonality or keys, and keys are created/defined by scales. These keys/scales govern both melody and harmony, and that's 2 of 3 of the fundamental elements of music (melody, harmony, rhythm).

    That's an oversimplification mind you, but one may want to compose, arrange, and improvise some tonal music for a while to fully appreciate the utility of scales.

    Something to noodle on.

  18. #17

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    Hey Oneofthe: It's not clear to me what the question is here. Do you want to learn to read better and would like advice? do you want to know your major scales in 5 (or 7 or 20) different guitar positions? Do you want to learn how to compose music? Do you like Jazz and would like to learn to play jazz guitar? You are getting well-meaning replies but answers need questions, and I can't find one in what you wrote.


    Presumably the teacher who urged you to practice reading is anticipating teaching more advanced material which might be easier to communicate to you if you have a decent command of the fretboard. Presumably he also wants you to be able to play major scales so that once you have internalized them, he can use that to teach you how melodies and harmony are assembled. By analogy: You have to learn arithmetic before you learn algebra, and you have to learn algebra before you learn calculus. That doesn't mean that learning arithmetic teaches you anything about calculus.

    In my opinion, your posts indicate to me a frequently repeated problem of aspiring guitarists who go down the rabbit hole of confusing basics of elementary musicianship with the making of music. I think knowing how to read, knowing scales, modes, chords, names of all the notes on the fretboard etc, are important skills that jazz musicians need to have, but many people have a good control of these things but can't play a single interesting thing. And as our colleagues in other styles of music teach us, you can make compelling and beautiful music without knowing a single thing about scales, positions, or reading music.

    Since one of the main aspects of jazz is improvisation, the goal is to train yourself to create interesting music in your brain and get it instantly to your fingers. Things like positions and scales are useful towards that goal in the same way that training wheels are useful to learn to ride a bike.

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    Hey Oneofthe: It's not clear to me what the question is here. Do you want to learn to read better and would like advice? do you want to know your major scales in 5 (or 7 or 20) different guitar positions? Do you want to learn how to compose music? Do you like Jazz and would like to learn to play jazz guitar? You are getting well-meaning replies but answers need questions, and I can't find one in what you wrote.


    Presumably the teacher who urged you to practice reading is anticipating teaching more advanced material which might be easier to communicate to you if you have a decent command of the fretboard. Presumably he also wants you to be able to play major scales so that once you have internalized them, he can use that to teach you how melodies and harmony are assembled. By analogy: You have to learn arithmetic before you learn algebra, and you have to learn algebra before you learn calculus. That doesn't mean that learning arithmetic teaches you anything about calculus.

    In my opinion, your posts indicate to me a frequently repeated problem of aspiring guitarists who go down the rabbit hole of confusing basics of elementary musicianship with the making of music. I think knowing how to read, knowing scales, modes, chords, names of all the notes on the fretboard etc, are important skills that jazz musicians need to have, but many people have a good control of these things but can't play a single interesting thing. And as our colleagues in other styles of music teach us, you can make compelling and beautiful music without knowing a single thing about scales, positions, or reading music.

    Since one of the main aspects of jazz is improvisation, the goal is to train yourself to create interesting music in your brain and get it instantly to your fingers. Things like positions and scales are useful towards that goal in the same way that training wheels are useful to learn to ride a bike.
    Hi, I apologize but the original questions were:

    1. How many Positions are there in Position Reading or Position playing?

    2. Can scale study be used to be a better position reader? In other words, in learning the Seven Fingering Patterns of the guitar can that be directly applied to all positions that are used in guitar.

    Now I know:

    1. There are Seven Positions

    2. Scale Study can be used to be a better position reader and the seven fingering patterns can directly be used to all positions that are used in the guitar.

    That was essentially my question. I got it answered by doing that diagram with the direction of Tonal Harmony. Then I shared it. Last post was just to describe where the original question came from in the first place and my conclusion about Scales in general.

    Thanks!

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneofthe
    Hi, I apologize but the original questions were:

    1. How many Positions are there in Position Reading or Position playing?

    2. Can scale study be used to be a better position reader? In other words, in learning the Seven Fingering Patterns of the guitar can that be directly applied to all positions that are used in guitar.

    Now I know:

    1. There are Seven Positions

    2. Scale Study can be used to be a better position reader and the seven fingering patterns can directly be used to all positions that are used in the guitar.

    That was essentially my question. I got it answered by doing that diagram with the direction of Tonal Harmony. Then I shared it. Last post was just to describe where the original question came from in the first place and my conclusion about Scales in general.

    Thanks!
    No.

    Again, "position reading" isn't any kind of conventional terminology as far as I know. You must be using some very specific term from a book or something. I don't think you can say that "there are seven positions " or even fingerings etc. There are more possible than that, and you certainly CAN use fewer than seven. Much of it is personal choice, whether it's your own or you're adopting someone else's .

    Think of fingerings this way: if you play C-major in one position that could be a starting point. Now add a flat to make it F major, in the same position without moving. You can continue on to B-flat and then E-flat etc. going around the cycle. If you're using stretch fingerings , you generally are adding first finger stretches to evolve from one fingering to the next one "forward" in the cycle. Five position people are generally using five positions within the cycle which are generally thought to be the easiest to finger. Seven position people generally have two additional positions, which are arrived at but simply cycling forward by two additional keys, if you want to think about it that way. You'd arrive at the same thing by simply learning to play scales from each degree starting on the second finger , but it doesn't really matter.

    If you cycle backwards instead of forwards, you eventually get to the point where you're using fourth finger stretches . All of this is laid out in William Leavitt's modern guitar method volume 3, but honestly, I wouldn't recommend going this overly nerdy route at the start. Right now it sounds like you need a TEACHER just to work you through the basics. This kind of analysis is maybe for later after you know how to PLAY some things at more basic levels and have more fundamental basic understanding.

    Just understand that you can't simply say "there are seven positions". It's not factually correct. There are easily 11 and technically more. Seriously, learn some basics from a teacher, and quit "words-ing" this stuff so much with "Internet people" like myself.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-17-2017 at 11:00 AM.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    ... If you're using stretch fingerings , you generally are adding first finger stretches to evolve from one fingering to the next one "forward" in the cycle. ...
    If you cycle backwards instead of forwards, you eventually get to the point where you're using fourth finger stretches .
    Say you are in 7th position (index is reference for position), when going for G major, do you really stretch pinkie for F# on 11th fret/ 3rd string, or you conveniently play it on 2nd string/ 7th fret?

  22. #21
    No. Sorry. I was talking about "outside" notes. Notes out of POSITION which REQUIRE stretch. In your example, the F sharp at the 7th pos. is actually an in-position note. If you play the same thing from fifth position, for example, you're going to need to stretch fourth finger to get some of those "outside " notes.

    "Position" doesn't really have anything to do with accidentals by the way. You could talk about "in position " notes and "out of position" notes in a key like F sharp as well.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-17-2017 at 12:06 PM.

  23. #22

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    So then, whole logic is in learning notes on all strings in chunks of 6 frets, 4 + 2 with stretching, 1 + 4 + 1?
    I thought it was connected to scale fingerings.

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    So then, whole logic is in learning notes on all strings in chunks of 6 frets, 4 + 2 with stretching, 1 + 4 + 1?
    I thought it was connected to scale fingerings.
    Sorry. I'm not following.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Say you are in 7th position (index is reference for position), when going for G major, do you really stretch pinkie for F# on 11th fret/ 3rd string, or you conveniently play it on 2nd string/ 7th fret?
    No. Play it at 7th fret like you're talking about.

  25. #24

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    For scale positions I like CAGED which is 5 positions, or for a better way of thinking of it, 5 references. Once you learn that you'll find yourself playing between the references and sliding from one to another. That's why I think references or landmarks is a better way of saying it.

    For reading I think you can just go to the Leavitt book, A Modern Method for Guitar. He doesn't use CAGED to explain the scales, I used a CAGED way of thinking though when I went through the book. This book was (still is?) used at Berklee School of Music so it probably lines up well with what your instructor was showing you. And the book does use the term "positions" for the reading studies.

    I recorded my way through the entire 1st book, a couple of examples:

    This 1st one is a duet, I switch to the single note playing video around 1:05.



    Last edited by fep; 08-17-2017 at 02:29 PM.

  26. #25

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    Here's the way it works, at least for me. I look at the passage I need to play. Let's assume it's challenging -- meaning, too many notes, too fast, to be able to play it just anywhere.

    1. find the rests -- because those are the places where you can shift position most easily

    2. find the range -- because you need to be able to reach the highest and lowest notes.

    3. look at the notes -- and try to figure out where to start. This is the only area in which thinking about position makes sense. For me, it may be a little easier to play things with my 1st and 3rd fingers than 2nd and 4th -- which means that the key of C might be easier at V while Eb might be easier at III. But, by the time you factor in accidentals and the need for position shifts (see below) you're not likely to be in a single position, no matter where you began. You just think, where are the notes on the guitar and how can I play them?

    4. Then, identify any problems which will keep you from executing the passage. Typically, for alternate pickers, the problems are in the right hand. The solutions typically involve position shifts with the left hand to accommodate the pick. After you get used to it, it turns out that it's possible to shift position very quickly. A complicated passage sometimes requires multiple shifts to accommodate pick direction. Sweep pickers, I think, may have an easier time with this, although I'm not sure, since I'm not good at that.