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  1. #1

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    Oooooops, Let me explain this.
    I've been transcribing a lot without improving my ears so much. My improvement comes from other exercises like functional ear training or some apps.

    The problem for me is the way I was transcribing:

    - If you slow down the record, cheating. Ok, if the melody is damned fast you have to slow down but real music doesn't happens at half speed.

    - If you are getting one note after note using guessing the distances (intervals) between them,..., for me is cheating as well. You cannot guess your next note this way when you are playing. After meeting some players I became aware that the vast majority of them played with their EYES, not their ears.

    - If you don't know the harmonic environment where the melody is played,..., cheating. Where the hell are you playing? Is minor or major? It is an ending phrase?... Many people is capable of transcribing melodies pretty well, but progressions? That's another history.

    I know, at the end, you have the melody written, many of the times thanks to a trial and error method, but Will this routine help your development as a player? Sure not. You get confidence because you are saying to yourself: "You are in the right way, you are transcribing like the masters before you", but you're note, you are taking shortcuts.

    I have made two commitments for myself:
    - Every piece of knowledge I want to learn, has to be internalized first aurally.
    - I won't transcribe tunes until being to recognize four note rows at the moment.

    I am not saying this is DA WAY, I am just sharing my thinking. May be I am wrong.

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  3. #2

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    What's the point of transcription, to learn it note for note and play it back? Party trick.

    Sing what you can and take from it what you will. Transcribe stuff that makes you say "hell yeah!" When you hear it. Figure out what it is that makes you say it...a certain note or two, a rhythmic phrase, a certain contour of a line. It should be about going after sounds you like, not completing an "assignment."

  4. #3
    That's the point!
    I don't want to transcribe for getting a new melody, I want to transcribe for improving my ears and for getting vocabulary, that's why I think that the way the vast majority of players transcribe, is useless.

  5. #4
    It's easy to over analyze things like this. Just because the long-term goal is to be able to simply play what you hear, doesn't mean that that's the starting point. There's the trial and error process of working things out at first . Then, you play things repeatedly, and your ears are teaching your fingers and vice versa. There's nothing wrong with that process. It's important part of learning.

    In the beginning , transcribing may be more about simply finding material to develop and work on repeatedly by rote. Nothing wrong with that. Work on playing a piece of vocabulary you like repeatedly, until you don't have to think about it - you can just hear it and play it. It teaches you very important things about where certain pitches are. It's simply a starting point from which to build a greater knowledge and hearing eventually.

    You have to do things in slow, imperfect , and maybe awkward ways before you can do them quickly and immediately/perfectly. If it was something like basketball, you wouldn't say , "Well, in a real game you never run sprints or shoot the same jumpshot 20 times in a row . So, this is pointless". You have to walk before you run.

  6. #5
    But you are always shooting to the ring.

  7. #6

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    Whenever I've transcribed something I've often found that I'd never come up with this stuff by myself. Not transcribing anything ever would be like swimming in bathtub... or hottub. I mean, when wanting to be a well experienced musician you're supposed to play and experience personally what others have done. Passively listening is not enough ever. Of course there are more effective ways to train the ears. Transcribing does improve ears but is not good only just for that.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by sjl
    But you are always shooting to the ring.
    ???

    How is slowing down the record anymore "cheating" than any aspect of practicing basketball outside of a real game?

  9. #8
    I think this is going rare and We are missing the point. And I think the point here is how to get the most from transcribing or using it in the best way.
    Last edited by sjl; 06-01-2017 at 05:23 PM.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by sjl
    I think this is going rare and We are missing the point. And I think the point here is how to get the most from transcribing or using it in the best way.
    Sure. Good luck.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    Whenever I've transcribed something I've often found that I'd never come up with this stuff by myself. Not transcribing anything ever would be like swimming in bathtub... or hottub. I mean, when wanting to be a well experienced musician you're supposed to play and experience personally what others have done. Passively listening is not enough ever. Of course there are more effective ways to train the ears. Transcribing does improve ears but is not good only just for that.
    Exactly, According to the OP, all the transcription I have ever done was "cheating." But it taught me to play things I simply could not imagine, could not hear, and surely could not play. After transcribing a few solos, I began to notice patterns, vocabulary, rhythmic figures, points of articulation, all the while "cheating" like crazy according to the OP.

    Bottom line for me is the real distinction is between what I got from NOT transcribing and what I got from "cheating." The latter benefited me incalculably. The former got me nowhere.

  12. #11

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    It's also possible that transcribing "not helping my ear" might mean I just don't have a very good ear to start with. Every ear can be trained, but there are hard limits as well beyond which transcription, cheating or not, won't take you.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    It's also possible that transcribing "not helping my ear" might mean I just don't have a very good ear to start with. Every ear can be trained, but there are hard limits as well beyond which transcription, cheating or not, won't take you.
    And also, maybe work on transcribing easier material which is within our ability to actually hear.

  14. #13

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    I think everyone''s first 5-10 transcriptions should be melody statements, not solos.

    But, that's why I'm not a highly sought after internet teacher. My "be somewhat competent in jazz in 5 grueling years" course is a tough sell.

  15. #14

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    the note guessing thing in transcribing, it depends on what you are trying to do. if you want to learn the notes so that you can analyse the harmonic ideas, then the trial and error is fine, it's a means of finding notes. if you're practicing aural training for intervals then obviously its not going to do anything if you just guess.

    the slowing down thing relates to the play slow to play fast idea. you have to have the aural clarity which has to be built up just like with rhythms and harmonies. to me it's a problem when it's a crutch, you can try to sing the line, then sing it slowly and go from there.

    really, it all depends on why you're transcribing, because the greats did it is probably not a great reason. for me transcribing is less about the ear. if you want to train your ear, train it away from your instrument.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjl
    Oooooops, Let me explain this.
    I've been transcribing a lot without improving my ears so much. My improvement comes from other exercises like functional ear training or some apps.

    The problem for me is the way I was transcribing:

    - If you slow down the record, cheating. Ok, if the melody is damned fast you have to slow down but real music doesn't happens at half speed.

    - If you are getting one note after note using guessing the distances (intervals) between them,..., for me is cheating as well. You cannot guess your next note this way when you are playing. After meeting some players I became aware that the vast majority of them played with their EYES, not their ears.

    - If you don't know the harmonic environment where the melody is played,..., cheating. Where the hell are you playing? Is minor or major? It is an ending phrase?... Many people is capable of transcribing melodies pretty well, but progressions? That's another history.

    I know, at the end, you have the melody written, many of the times thanks to a trial and error method, but Will this routine help your development as a player? Sure not. You get confidence because you are saying to yourself: "You are in the right way, you are transcribing like the masters before you", but you're note, you are taking shortcuts.

    I have made two commitments for myself:
    - Every piece of knowledge I want to learn, has to be internalized first aurally.
    - I won't transcribe tunes until being to recognize four note rows at the moment.

    I am not saying this is DA WAY, I am just sharing my thinking. May be I am wrong.
    Nah I don't think you are wrong. Your post touches on a lot of things I've been thinking about.

    All 'transcription' is really focussed listening.

    However, many people seem to understand transcription as writing down or learning to play a solo all the way through. That's one thing you can do, for sure. What does learning a solo teach you?

    - language
    - phrasing
    - technique
    - some ear training initially to get it down
    - a nice achievable goal

    Like sjl, I would rather hone my ability to hear and respond to musical situations in real time. I'm not overly interested in more 'language', technique or even phrasing at my present point. So that means emphasising the ear stuff. Learning a solo is less useful for that.

    (Also doing a whole solo is a Big Project and I'm too busy ATM with other important stuff to commit.)

    Others will differ.

    If I had to express my disquiet about the whole youtube transcribed solo thing it would be:

    - it's showing your work. Cool - but to whom? Whose approval?
    - it's lacking in confidence in a way - why not post your own playing?
    - it's a bit of a fannish thing to do in a way. Be a musician not a music fan - be creative!

    But I've done it myself and learned a lot by it, so I wouldn't want to discourage someone. Having to nail it on camera is a great test of whether or not you know something cold.

    Anyway a result, I work on ear training and practice playing phrases I like back from records for about 30m a day. These phrases may well be forgotten and that's absolutely fine. That's not the point.

    I learn the songs I need to know by ear if there aren't charts for them. I work on ear training.

    My ear (I think) gets steadily better.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-01-2017 at 08:43 PM.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I think everyone''s first 5-10 transcriptions should be melody statements, not solos.

    But, that's why I'm not a highly sought after internet teacher. My "be somewhat competent in jazz in 5 grueling years" course is a tough sell.
    Love it. That market will be small, but they'll be pure.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    ...

    If I had to express my disquiet about the whole youtube transcribed solo thing it would be:

    - it's showing your work. Cool - but to whom? Whose approval?
    - it's lacking in confidence in a way - why not post your own playing?
    - it's a bit of a fannish thing to do in a way. Be a musician not a music fan - be creative!

    ...
    Posting doesn't have to be for approval. It's just fun to share stuff. I like listening to things others are doing who are around my level, and they like checking out what I'm doing.

    It doesn't have to be "for approval"-some of us just play music because it's fun. Some of us post things because it's fun. Some of us share with others what we do because... yes... it's fun.

    Fun. That's a concept I wish "working musicians" could re-discover. Maybe more people would stop and listen. Everybody loves watching somebody have some solid fun.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    My "be somewhat competent in jazz in 5 grueling years" course is a tough sell.
    I'm in !!!

    "Somewhat competent" means a big improvement for me.

    Er, can you guarantee this?

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit
    I'm in !!!

    "Somewhat competent" means a big improvement for me.

    Er, can you guarantee this?
    Yes, all you need to do is stop working full time and fake your death to get away from unecessary family and friends.

    Let me ask you...how much do you like sleep?

  21. #20

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    Hey Lawson ......yeah I remember fun!

    Miles had a record in his later period called Big Fun ......loved that idea.

    Maybe the quest for big fun is what keeps a lot of us here out of trouble ......

  22. #21

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    After having done very very very much transcription I agree it's a pitfall. Lately I started transcribing tunes and melodies - seems much more effective. And I do write down the lead sheet then

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Posting doesn't have to be for approval. It's just fun to share stuff. I like listening to things others are doing who are around my level, and they like checking out what I'm doing.

    It doesn't have to be "for approval"-some of us just play music because it's fun. Some of us post things because it's fun. Some of us share with others what we do because... yes... it's fun.

    Fun. That's a concept I wish "working musicians" could re-discover. Maybe more people would stop and listen. Everybody loves watching somebody have some solid fun.
    I wasn't really talking about people like yourself who post youtube videos to study groups.

    Do whatever you enjoy in any case. There's nothing 'wrong' with any of it, but at some point one should post their own creations.

    Remember that guy who posted the AMAZING vid of him playing a Cannonball solo? I couldn't find any of his own playing in a jazz context. Which was disappointing.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaclaus
    After having done very very very much transcription I agree it's a pitfall. Lately I started transcribing tunes and melodies - seems much more effective. And I do write down the lead sheet then
    Yeah, I mean it's so easy to get overwhelmed by the sheer amount of stuff you can be practicing.

    For me what keeps it focussed is if I concentrate on stuff for gigs. Learning tunes by ear and so on.... And that's probably better immediate ear training than puzzling out a very fast run or something at half speed.

    But everything works something. If your instinct is calling you to practice a specific thing, chances are there's a reason for it.

  25. #24

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    At the other end of a spectrum, I have a friend who's never done a transcription (written). He learned the language thoroughly. He can listen to a Chris Potter solo cold and tell you exactly what is going on measure by measure and he could play any given phrase if he wanted. He did this by developing a really strong WORKING knowledge of the language; and having a really good native ear I daresay.
    The point being that transcription is a complex endeavour and it's a process that does involve a close connexion with a player. The more knowledgable you are about the lexicon, syntax and semantic context of his/her note choice, the more you stand to benefit in appreciating their conscious note choices.
    As the OP pointed out, for him, it's not about the individual succession of notes, but the appreciation/reconstruction of a thought process. The more you know about the language, the better you can repeat it.
    One opinion anyway.

    David

  26. #25

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    Transcribing has been an essential skill in my career, because in 90 percent of the projects I´ve played, you have to learn the songs from CD. (or dropbox link, etc.) Everything that helps to get the job done is more than welcome. What you call cheating - I refer to as "making a good educated guess". It can be done away from the instrument, too - while commuting, waiting in line, etc. - I start most of my transcriptions tapping quarter notes (or half notes - if uptempo) with one hand and the rhythm of the melody, solo or rhythm part (works great for bass lines too) with the other hand. So by the time I pick up the instrument I just have to fill in the the pitches for the rhythm I already know. Checking the bass line for harmonic clues, using theory of harmony to eliminate unlikely chords, CST - why limit myself to "pure ear training" - Trying to execute a transcribed line with all the nuances like timing, vibrato, accents and so on can be an awe-inspiring experience in regard to the mastery of those cats I´m trying to learn from. Like with any other technique, transcribing won´t get you far until you take it to the music you´re going to perform.
    "Imitation, Assimilation, Innovation" Clark Terry
    Last edited by generalduke; 06-02-2017 at 08:36 AM.