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A number of experiences have led me to try and learn in a different way recently. I know a guy who is a brilliant chordal player. In fact he is a brilliant player, but I think his chord playing is exceptional. He is in his 70s and spent much of his life writing arrangements for big bands. He says he could write the arrangements without playing them as he could hear what the arrangements sounded like in his head. He told me that it is similar with comping, he hears the chord and plays it. He can analyse later if he wants but he says he doesn't even think about the chord quality really, it is a sound in his head and a shape on the fretboard. It sounds like magic to me!!! Then I bought a Bruce Forman video on learning tunes. It was as much philosophical as instructional. He encouraged learning tunes by fitting chords to a melody rather than learning the chords to the tune from a book. He talked a lot about the cycle, and how to get from one chord to another by using your ear and intuition, rather than how to play the "right" chords. I have another friend who is a songwriter and a great guitar player, in so far as he makes a lovely sound and is very expressive. He is not a virtuoso. The other day someone asked him to play Umbrella by Rihanna. Even though he hadn't played it before, once round and he had harmonised the tune and started to sing along with it, I think with some improvised lyrics. He wasn't using extended chords, just basic stuff but it fitted perfectly. He said it sounded like some ironic nonsense that he would expect to see from a hipster busker so was obviously not impressed, but I was. I asked him how he did it, and he said he just heard them in his head and played them. I think there is a running theme here. Wes Montgomery said something along the lines of that he didn't know what all the chords he played were, but he know what they sounded like!! So I thought, can I do it? I tried to harmonise Body and soul in my head as an exercise as I know the melody but not the chords. No, not really I think I got the first 4 or 5 chords to the Db then struggled. Then I thought what about twinkle twinkle or happy birthday? Thankfully I could play some triads that fitted. I must admit I didn't really know what they all were and didn't play at any tempo, I just played the arpeggiated chord in my head. So maybe that is about my level. I shall now go off and try and harmonise other simple tunes and see what I come up with. I think it will just manage maj, min, and 7th chords and maybe half diminished as that is all I can hear, but I hope to progress to hearing extensions and inversions. After years of trying to play (in an admittedly half hearted way) and making slow progress I have come to the conclusion this is the way to go. This is making music not working stuff out. I would challenge other aspiring and beginner/intermediate level players to test their ear in this way by trying to harmonise simple songs, as it has been humbling and enlightening to me.
Last edited by plasticpigeon; 07-07-2016 at 08:16 PM.
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07-07-2016 08:13 PM
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I think tunes like Happy Birthday can be done almost mechanically if you have the melody. If you are just using triads 1,4,5, then the 2 and 7 notes only occur in the 5 chord, the 4 and 6 are only in the 4, and the 3 is only in the 1. 1 and 5 both occur in 2 triads, but the tune isn't going to end on a 5 chord, etc. You don't need either sheet music or your ears.
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You reminded me of this :
Originally Posted by Binyomin
I think he just randomly picked Happy Birthday but you can hear the harmony.
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I'm not sure if this is quite the method you're proposing, but I enjoy harmonizing melodies and I think it helps me progress as a player. The melodies can be from just about any source such as jazz standards, folk tunes or classical. The more I do it the less I need to think about it. I have a long way to go, but I often find my fingers know where to go based on what I want to hear even if I'm not consciously thinking of each chord name.
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Man, what a great thread. This is the sort of question people should be asking, not 'how do I apply the superlothianhalfdemented scale.'
OK. I can do what you have described in your OP and I would certainly not describe myself as having particularly good ears compared to many of my colleagues (I am a professional musician), a few of whom are ridiculous to the savant level (and tell me off for playing the wrong chords ;-)) but most of whom have good enough ears to busk a tune after hearing it a few times. (Obviously we aren't talking about Weather Report tunes here.)
Most of my colleagues started earlier than me, and many of them have classical training from an early age, specialist music schools etc, even perfect pitch.... So I go easy on myself ;-)
A musician is someone who works on their ears over their lifetime. That's not just a sense of pitch, but attention to detail, timing, articulation, phrasing and so on. The way I hear music now is different to the way I heard it 5 years ago, let alone 20 years ago when I started playing jazz, and is developing all the time. It's a joyous thing.
So, to cut to the point - how do you develop your chordal hearing?
- Well, you need to do some listening, not playing IMO. But the playing gets easier if you have a strong idea of what your playing will sound like before you play...
- Learn your tunes as much as possible from recordings. Write down what you think the chords are, and then compare to various sources for changes - real book, sheet music etc. Listen again, and see if you agree. Start with broad strokes (things can get more subtle and detailed as your ear develops - for example, a tune in the key of Bb - can you discern the difference between a Dm7 and a Bb/D? Is that a #11 in that 7 chord along with the b9? And so on...)
- First all the melody usually gives you a big clue in jazz. If the melody has the note F# on a D bass and the song is otherwise in C major, that means that the chord is unlikely to be a Dm7. It's really important to get to know the melody if you want to learn tunes properly, and it's something I get told off for all the time.
- Second - listen out for the bass of the chords. That's something you can practice separately. Try listening to and singing the bass line. This usually gives you a big clue as to what the chord is.
- Third - check out the middle voices. This is much harder, but in particular - listen out for chromatic notes outside of the key. Along with the bass and the melody that'll hopefully give you the info you need.
- I started really, with three chords I IV V. If you can hear the basic functions in major and minor, that's a great first start. Also it's only three chords so it's not so many choices. In jazz, a lot of harmony is just a dressed up versions of these functions. 12 bar blues and Rhythm Changes are examples of this...
- Start with simple harmonies, major, minor, dom7 and dim7 before moving into jazzier chords.
- Play trad jazz, swing and/or gypsy jazz. The chords are less substituted and complex so you can hear the basic structure a lot more clearly. Musicians with a background in these styles seem to be very quick at picking up tunes. It's also common in trad jazz to not use real books etc and to learn by ear on the stand, transpose in your head for singers, etc.
- There's software that trains you to recognise chords. I don't use it much myself, but it's another resource. You can even get it on your phone - make use of that dead time...
This will be tough at first is some of the most important s**t that you can possibly work on. As Barney Kessell put it it - be a musician not a guitarist.
Even if you have no desire to be a pro (obv. many don't) it's rewarding journey in itself, because you will start to hear more in the music you listen to.Last edited by christianm77; 07-08-2016 at 08:04 AM.
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I agree. At least 50% of the tunes are 12 bar blues.
50% of the rest are AABA tunes.
50% of those are camouflaged blues with couple V of Vs added to fill in for the needed number of bars.
Out of the remaining 25%, 15% go to 8 bar blues and I vi ii V, with combinations and variations.
You're left with max 10% oddballs, which you can force into blues anyway.
Basically, if you take a look at it, being able to recognize 5 to 1 movement (which is equal to 1-4. 6-2, 2-5, 3-6) covers about 80% of all tunes ever written in any genre.
The 20% it does not cover, you extend, substitute and re-harmonize so to make it be 5 to 1.
Then play blues all over.
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I'm trying to play chords by ear and using an ear training app to bombard with all sorts of stuff.. It sure feels awesome when I know in advance whats the suitable triad or 7th before landing on it. But the progress is slow. Still nailing less than 50% and the hesitation happens 90% of the time. I've been doing it for a bit more than 2 months.. there is still hope
But nice thread, nice tips up there, thanks
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which app?
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Such a great topic!
I've found that learning lots of songs has been the main key. At first from books, then gradually from recordings. Then you start to become very familiar with standard moves. It's interesting that so many jazz tunes use a fairly small pool of harmonic moves. In that excellent Bruce Forman lesson he talks about
* moving around the cycle
* targeting the vi
* targeting the IV
That gets you very far! Add in a few more, and you can hear most of what happens in most standards and jazz standards. Lately, I've been noticing these moves:
* iv minor to VII to I
* targeting the iii
* biii bVI7 | ii V
I've got a long way to go--I can pick up most standards reasonably well, but not often in real time. And I fare much worse with Wayne Shorter, etc.
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An exercise I like to do is to learn a melody (or create one) and purposefully NOT learn the chords...
Then I sit down and try to harmonize on the spot. Tests all my knowledge and I end up throwing in some random stuff too, because there's plenty of gaps in that knowledge
I come up with cool stuff that way.
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goodear
Click "workout" first. then come back to "synth".
Then in the the box with sliders (down in the middle) - select voice, slide one of them to make it sound right.
There is a little help button down/left "???" with not very much in it. It takes a lot of time to figure all out.
Chrome lets you save the settings but because of a 5 years old nasty Chrome-bug, it will choke it 10 minutes play time.
Firefox works endlessly but doesnt let you save settings... and has a crackling sound (an unfinished thing by Firefox) which can be minimized using the envelopes box down right in "synth". Softer attack (the 1st dot) sounds more or less ok.Last edited by emanresu; 07-08-2016 at 10:40 AM.
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thanks man. looks similar enough to the one I already have called Jazz Chords for I-phone
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I tend to agree that the best way to learn chord qualities and recognition is to learn songs, starting with those that are familiar to you. If you have access to a good Fake book such as those published by Hal Leonard or the online versions, take a few songs you like and work through them. I'm presuming that you read notation, which is helpful reading a lead sheet for the melody. By working through melodies and their chord changes, not only will you be learning specific tunes, but you will also be studying the harmonic changes. The more songs learned, the more familiar and easier it will become to anticipate the changes and "hear" them.
I have thought about trying to teach students who would be focused on learning jazz standards, but that is probably too narrow a 'business model'. But learning from a teacher would also be a major asset for you. Anyone think there is a potential market for that? Teaching focused on learning jazz standards for students who already know a bit about playing guitar.
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Hey Jay, any jazz teacher worth their salt incorporates Jazz standards into their teaching. Some focus on repertoire more than others; some teach via repertoire almost exclusively. What are you proposing that would be different? You could probably sell yourself as a Sibelius expert, or perhaps focus on finding students who wish to play and sing Originally Posted by targuit
Edit: but I'm sure you already know if you're looking to build a full studio of students the trick is to diversify as much as possible; not specialize.Last edited by joe2758; 07-08-2016 at 12:25 PM.
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Singing, humming or scatting is also very beneficial for me. I'll try to invent a harmony line for an existing melody or compose an interesting melody without thinking about scale or chord names, then come back to the guitar and figure out what I was singing. That process not only helps me learn to hear changes, but it also helps break free of guitaristic patterns. I'd ultimately like playing guitar to be as free as singing. Practicing singing what you want to hear before playing it might help get to that point.
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Don't wish to derail the thread, Joe, but I'm no expert in Sibelius, just a survivor of the learning curve over the years and someone who can transcribe and notate music correctly with some facility. I've seen web sites over the years of individuals who offer as services individual transcriptions of specific songs for a fee, intended to bypass problems with copyright and mechanical issues. But I'm not sure about the viability of the business model. I think it would be fun and not too hard. I'd even have an excuse to buy Transcribe or Song Surgeon and deduct the cost as a 'business expense'.
To return to the subject of the thread, I do strongly believe that the best teaching method is to teach songs in context - concretely. I read so many thread here where people delve deeply into arcane exercises and prescriptions to learn more theory and somehow wake up one morning playing jazz. If that is one's thing, that's fine but I take Joe Pass' advice to aspiring musicians to heart - "Guys, learn songs!" The 'secrets' are all right there in the open in the songs. The technique is as well but more obscure. I think that is where a flesh and blood teacher can help speed up the process.
In thinking about the OP's issues - honing his or her ears for hearing the harmony and more importantly the voice leading in practical terms involved in playing the tune on the guitar - I think a proper Fake book can be enormously helpful. But where the teacher helps is tutoring on voicings and actually playing the tune. Simple case in point - others like me likely have a 'chord dictionary' with the "1001 chords" type deal. Seventy percent or more of those chord voicings will have little real application to playing a chord melody or just comping on a tune. Sometimes someone who can separate the wheat from the chaff is valuable to a student.Last edited by targuit; 07-08-2016 at 12:48 PM.
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Chord melody on the fly.
Once you learn the melody, replay it with the melody note on top using a chord voicing that sounds good to you. Put the melody note generally on the B and high E strings.
A very interesting way to practice.Last edited by Drumbler; 07-08-2016 at 01:54 PM.
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That is what I have started doing Drumbler. I am trying to do all this without a fake book, as I am trying to hear the chords, first in my head by trying to harmonise the melody, If I fail as I do most of the time, then listen to a recording, and lastly look in a fake book, but that is cheating really and something I am going to try and avoid. The point is to force me to use my ears and imagination, not maths, or theory. I shall be doing this as much as I can this weekend. Unfortunately so far I seem not to even be able to hear 7ths in my head very much so I am stuck with major minor and diminished, and I can't hear all the chords through most songs anyway. Somewhere to start from though. In affect I am creating a simulated bandstand but in the comfort of my own home.
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Some knowledge of substitutions is helpful. Originally Posted by plasticpigeon
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A lot of this stuff seems like "the more you do something the less you have to think about it." We tend to overthink and oversimplify at the same time. You do the super crazy theory stuff like crazy so eventually you don't have to think about it. Like adding a new word to your vocabulary. You have to really think about how to use to until it's just there. Great thread with great practice tips!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Maybe start with some early jazz - 20s/30s. Easier to hear. Try Django. Originally Posted by plasticpigeon
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Maybe try lowering the speed with a DAW or player function without changing the pitch. And first it is simpler to find the chord notes 1 by 1, then on the next runs it might be easier to play them as chord. I'm basically trying to do the same thing but struggling heavily. I can find a suitable notes as an arpeggio without too much trouble but to play them instantly as a chord.. dang its so iffy!
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"If I fail as I do most of the time, then listen to a recording, and lastly look in a fake book, but that is cheating really and something I am going to try and avoid. The point is to force me to use my ears and imagination, not maths, or theory. I shall be doing this as much as I can this weekend. Unfortunately so far I seem not to even be able to hear 7ths in my head very much so I am stuck with major minor and diminished, and I can't hear all the chords through most songs anyway...."
I very much agree with you that in the end you want to be able to "hear" it all clearly and to anticipate the changes. I advocate thinking in terms of intervals from a tonic. If you have specific songs in mind that are 'familiar' - you can hear them in your head - then yes, you do need to be able to find the chords. But in learning songs that process becomes more and more easy for you. I agree with wanting to do it all in your head, but to me reading notation, studying chord construction, theory, et al is all synergistic with each other to create big ears.
Could you give us a particular song you find challenging so we can work it through with you? Just as an example my practice early this morning was playing through two songs in chord melody style in terms of various keys. I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face and You Are Too Beautiful. Two songs, two hours just solo playing. In this instance I ended up preferring the key of A for both of them. The determinant factor in each was predominantly how the melody lay in relation to the chords in terms of voice leading in regard to fingering.
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when I was 20 I got a six nighter with some old jazz guys. Tuesday thru Sunday, 9pm to 3am
By about 1am on Wednesday of the first week I had played every jazz tune I ever eve heard of, and I had 4 more nights to go to finish out my first week
this is how guys learned how to learn tunes on the bandstand. I say this because these days people tend to keep to themselves and not go mix it up with strangers, but this is an important part of the jazz tradition
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Learning by 'test of fire'. Kind of 'focuses the mind' I'm sure.
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