The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Uh, well . . erm, I would argue this point only because it isn't the way I've done it. So I'd argue that it might be an acceptable way of doing it; a generally agreed upon method, but not actually essential. And I actually really like the way I play.

    That said I have transcribed solos in the past. Gets my ears cleared out. Dexter, Cedar Walton, Coltrane, Miles, Rollins, Red Garland. But never memorized any of them. Its nice to be able to see what your ears are hearing. But essential? Nah. Not for me.
    Well, that approach seems to have served you well...

    I used to be a transcription Nazi as that's the way most of my favourite guys learned. But there is a significant minority of my favourite guys who never transcribed much.

    I started rethinking this when I went to a Peter Bernstein workshop and he mentioned he had transcribed a Charlie Christian solo once years ago in college, but in general he likes to pick up individual licks and work out what's going on. Emily Remler was also wonderfully dismissive about the idea of learning a whole solo note for note ('Who does that?' She said - well, errr... Wes, Emily haha.) But back in the days of '78s a solo might be a chorus or less, and that's not so many licks to learn.

    The idea of transcribing or learning solos to clear you ears out is exactly the thing I find fun about it

    Also - the challenge of trying to get it tight with the track - good for time and technique. Posting a youtube up of yourself playing a long to a solo is a little bit 'show off' but I did find in doing it made me focus on details - there are a few aspects of that youtube I don't like... So I think it's a good thing to do. If it appeals, transcribe a solo and play it along to the record. The process is an fruitful one, and I would encourage others to give it a go.

    In any case, the wider thing is that a musician should learn how to listen and different ways of listening. I think transcription is a very good way to work on this. But it's important to note that the quality of my transcriptions has improved over time. My ear for detail has developed because all sorts of things, not simply listening/imitating.

    Furthermore, I would say that working on aspects of my musicianship in lots of different ways has made transcription much much faster and easier. The gap between my ordinary listening and my super concentrated transcription listening has narrowed. In a perfect world there would be no difference, and I believe that the very best musicians I have worked with are 'on' all the time - that is listening exceptionally closely and in great detail. That's probably the single biggest difference between me and them.

    In any case its an endless journey of discovery. You never stop learning.
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-07-2016 at 10:02 AM.

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  3. #27

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    Guitarists....the only ones that even think they might get better if they don't copy solos. You won't get that from other jazz musicans. That's why most guitarists get looked at like the redheaded step child...generally can't read for shit, and haven't put the time in to copy solos...wouldn't know a Lester Young solo from a Red Garland solo...this is part of the tradition that other musicians know.

    All Freddie Hubbard had to do was learn all the Miles solos from Workin', Relaxin', Cookin', & Steamin', and his ass was covered for about every standard being played, and he was in NYC gigging and turning all that Miles stuff into his own voice. Since Miles was too busy running his own bands, who do you think got the call to be sideman on such historical dates as Dolphy's Out to Lunch, Herbie's Maiden Voyage, Shorter's Speak No Evil, Nelson's Blues and the Abstract Truth....and on and on....what a monster Freddie was....a huge part of some of the most influential jazz in history....

    To think it began from learning all Miles' stuff note for note.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Guitarists....the only ones that even think they might get better if they don't copy solos. You won't get that from other jazz musicans. That's why most guitarists get looked at like the redheaded step child...generally can't read for shit, and haven't put the time in to copy solos...wouldn't know a Lester Young solo from a Red Garland solo...this is part of the tradition that other musicians know.

    All Freddie Hubbard had to do was learn all the Miles solos from Workin', Relaxin', Cookin', & Steamin', and his ass was covered for about every standard being played, and he was in NYC gigging and turning all that Miles stuff into his own voice. Since Miles was too busy running his own bands, who do you think got the call to be sideman on such historical dates as Dolphy's Out to Lunch, Herbie's Maiden Voyage, Shorter's Speak No Evil, Nelson's Blues and the Abstract Truth....and on and on....what a monster Freddie was....a huge part of some of the most influential jazz in history....

    To think it began from learning all Miles' stuff note for note.
    I, too, used to be absolutist. It can be useful to have a direction. Sometimes the actual complexity of reality can be detrimental to your development as a player.

    Imagine you went to a guitar lesson and asked about picking and you got 10 answers. I give out a lot of info on this forum, but actually if you want to learn, this is really not what you want. So I give 1 answer in a lesson. Give the impression of certainty. It's important.

    Because of this I tend to be pretty strict with my student - learn solos etc - I think there's more to be gained than lost by doing this. Nothing to be lost as far as I can tell.

    The great players of this world (such as Peter B) in my experience, tend to be very open and non-absolutist. But they are exploring music...
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-07-2016 at 11:39 AM.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Guitarists....the only ones that even think they might get better if they don't copy solos. You won't get that from other jazz musicans. That's why most guitarists get looked at like the redheaded step child...generally can't read for shit, and haven't put the time in to copy solos...wouldn't know a Lester Young solo from a Red Garland solo...this is part of the tradition that other musicians know.

    All Freddie Hubbard had to do was learn all the Miles solos from Workin', Relaxin', Cookin', & Steamin', and his ass was covered for about every standard being played, and he was in NYC gigging and turning all that Miles stuff into his own voice. Since Miles was too busy running his own bands, who do you think got the call to be sideman on such historical dates as Dolphy's Out to Lunch, Herbie's Maiden Voyage, Shorter's Speak No Evil, Nelson's Blues and the Abstract Truth....and on and on....what a monster Freddie was....a huge part of some of the most influential jazz in history....

    To think it began from learning all Miles' stuff note for note.
    Hm. I'm no redheaded step child, thank you very much. Most guitar players I know copy solos. One of my very favorite current jazz musicians is Chris Potter. He said he's never copied a solo.

  6. #30

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    I want to focus on one thing only here: the analogy of "if you want to write, write" and "if you want to play, play".

    First, if you want to write (-tunes, novels, poems, captions), you do have to write. You have to produce something written. But this does NOT mean that a writer should avoid reading the writing of others. (It's hard to think of a first-rate writer who didn't encourage would-be writers to read extensively.) It helps to remember--sticking strictly to jazz--that Ellington a) listened to tunes he did not write (-duh), and b) performed tunes he didn't write. I don't think anyone holds that was less of a composer for either of these unoriginal acts. Monk played tunes he didn't write, as did Sonny Rollins and of course Miles and Charlie Parker. So what?

    I think we see in that case the lack of link between listening to / performing tunes of others and writing one's own tunes. You can know a hundred tunes by other people and still write good tunes of your own. It is less likely that one might know NO tunes by other people and yet write hundreds of one's own. I suppose it is possible but in what sense would it be desirable? Who thinks so-and-so is less of a composer because he learned a tune someone else wrote? (Or studied an admired score trying to 'see how it was done'?) My guess: no one. No one at all.

    Playing. There's the same lack of connection here I think. Sure, a person might play ONLY note-for-note transcriptions forever and nothing else. I think we would agree that that is not the most desirable way to spend one's musical life. But no one is suggesting that be done. There's just no problem at all with learning some things from listening to musicians one admires and gradually coming to play them one's own way. Or in some cases not really innovating with them but just enjoying them. Joe Henderson said he liked to play a melody his own way, as if he wrote it, and that's fine, but there's nothing, er, un-fine about me playing a tune fairly straight because I enjoy hearing it that way. (I did nothing innovative with "Frosty the Snowman" last month but I truly enjoyed playing it.)

    If only original singers sang, would the rest of us remain silent? I sing to sing. I wish I were great at it but I will sing regardless because no one else can sing for me. I play better than I sing. Sometimes my playing is original and impresses me; most of the time it's quite familiar but I don't mind that any more than I mind singing with my voice--it's what I got. It's not about who I am or what I have to say; it's about loving music and making some as best I can.

  7. #31

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    Mingus used to say, "Play your own shit, even if it stinks." He'd also said the jazz was about, as in composition, was about being an essayist. You write and play form your own experience. I believe in both premises completely. And I took this to heart long before I ever picked up a guitar.

    I don't know that most great composers copied forever and forever before trying their hand at composition. Most, like Duke, just started writing. And learned more tunes along the way. Mozart and Beethoven too. Yes they read the classics up to that time, but they also wrote music from the very earliest and youngest ages. It seems like most people would copy the way they think Mozart held his pen and the way he put notes down on paper.

    I said at the beginning, there's great value in copying. I said I've hardly done it. This always pisses people off. But there's more than one way to skin a cat. If you want to play, play. You can always learn different approaches. I've listened, for the most part. I don't know. I could understand what I listened to pretty early on. I don't have perfect pitch, but I could just grok it. If you can't grok it you must transcribe.

    But its always been hard for me as a teacher. I've had to break things down into smaller and smaller and smaller chunks. And then I have to write out examples of solos because 90% of students just don't get it unless they copy. And this, on its face, seems opposite ended. Improvisation is improvisation. The student is learning solos that were improvised. I try to understand the IMPROVISATION and not being rote about it. It was never intended to be a fixed composition.

    As I said, as arrogant as it may sound, I really like the way I play. I don't want to play like anyone else. I have my style. When I play I feel like me. I don't feel like -- "this lick here, I got from XX and this little piece here was a Dexter solo and over there." Nah. I like that. Its me. I play me. And for ME, that's what jazz is about. But I'm ok for it not being you. Just don't frigging criticize me for doing it my way. And I don't care who does it this way or that. I don't care if I'm the ONLY one who doesn't copy solos in the entire world. I'd love that. I don't do things because other people do them that way. This is SELF EXPRESSION. This for me is not group expression beyond playing in a band. And I've always been able to do that pretty well.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    ... - learn solos etc - I think there's more to be gained than lost by doing this. Nothing to be lost as far as I can tell...
    I agree, but I also keep in mind that the very nature of a solo is a singular musical statement by an individual. In jazz that singular statement can involve a significant amount of improvisation. Learning someone else's improvisation can be helpful, but I tend to think in terms of directions. Learning someone's improvisational direction is more important to me than copying every single note and nuance from someone else's solo. I am open minded, but I just don't find an immense amount of copying enjoyable.

  9. #33

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    And i will also add that the amount of time it would take me to memorize and play one solo along with the recording seems, for me, a lot of time wasted. In that god awful amount of time I could have learned a bunch of tunes, learned to solo in a bunch of changes, worked on reading. It's one thing to get the gist if a solo, get the notes under you fingers a figure out what's going on and quite another to memorize the damn thing up to speed.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Hm. I'm no redheaded step child, thank you very much. Most guitar players I know copy solos. One of my very favorite current jazz musicians is Chris Potter. He said he's never copied a solo.
    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    I agree, but I also keep in mind that the very nature of a solo is a singular musical statement by an individual. In jazz that singular statement can involve a significant amount of improvisation. Learning someone else's improvisation can be helpful, but I tend to think in terms of directions. Learning someone's improvisational direction is more important to me than copying every single note and nuance from someone else's solo. I am open minded, but I just don't find an immense amount of copying enjoyable.
    Depends on what type of player and person you are too. Some of us love to explore the tradition and the history. Others couldn't care less.

    Life is too short to draw battle lines over that sort of thing. I hate people telling me I should or shouldn't do anything. I please myself, and advise my students as best I can.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    And i will also add that the amount of time it would take me to memorize and play one solo along with the recording seems, for me, a lot of time wasted. In that god awful amount of time I could have learned a bunch of tunes, learned to solo in a bunch of changes, worked on reading. It's one thing to get the gist if a solo, get the notes under you fingers a figure out what's going on and quite another to memorize the damn thing up to speed.
    That's a very narrow way to look at it. But you don't have to if you don't want to:-)

    Btw when I started studying Dexter it's like the history of jazz coming out his horn... Prez to Coltrane... Fantastic, loved getting to that.

    It all sounds like Dexter though. In fact studying solos taught me that note choices don't define a player....
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-07-2016 at 02:46 PM.

  12. #36

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    Its been really interesting glimpsing into the different musical values you folks have. I am comfortable with every man (or woman) doing what they want to do with their musical activities.

    My attitude and values are very similar to Lawson-Stone's. I love certain songs, and I really like being able to play them. I sheepishly admit that I do get an ego boost and just plain joy at being able to play songs for others at family gatherings or amateur talent shows, such as the one my kid's school had on Parent's night. I selfishly admit that I enjoy the "Ear Massage" that I get when I plug into my amp and play. My recordings are not able to capture the overtones and ambience that my live amp can.

    But, I want to be able to play my own improvisations over my own songs as well. It is not an all-consuming passion. I could be happy playing the songs I know and learning more and more as time goes on; however, I would like that little "whip cream and cherry" on top of my ice cream.

    It is good to see that there are others who share at least some of my present musical values. And like most of you, I don't begrudge those that don't.

  13. #37

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    I think a lot also depends on where one is in the process. A mature, established player might not find learning other players' solos to be helpful unless that other player had a concept or approach that was hard to get without going over his playing note by note. but a beginner, especially one without much chance to play with good players, can gain a lot by that kind of work.

  14. #38

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    It works for some, completely unnecessary for others.

  15. #39

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    In truth, I find it hard to memorize and play others' solos. It is simply too much work. And the whole point is to sing your voice. That whole improvisation thing... Hell, it may be hard but it's a lot easier than memorizing someone else's solo.

    But transcribing bits and pieces here and there - I'm ok with that.

  16. #40

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    It seems to me that one reason why some of the "great ones" transcribed and copied other players' solos note for note was that this music was new. The transition from acoustic rhythm guitar to the amplified guitar as a line-playing voice put guitarists in a new position, and the most natural thing to do was to copy horn players' lines. Then when others took up the guitar, the newness of that kind of playing made it natural to copy the lines of those who were inventing this new kind of guitar playing. Wes Montgomery copied Charlie Christian's solos note for note. Exactly. How else could he have learned to play "pre-bop" guitar in those days? There were no text books, no teachers, nobody explaining the bebop scales. This was a scary, experimental music that was, for the time, breaking lots of rules. So the first generation or two really could only learn by imitation. As the music became more accepted and better understood, it became possible for players to learn the principles and ideas, and implement them in their own way. But of course jazz is also a tradition, and one wants to innovate in a way that tags the bases of the earlier music.

    So I think today transcription and copying, even memorizing solos, has a place, but it's a different kind of place. We don't need to do that because it's the only way to learn what's going on in those solos. But it might still be one of the best ways for a player to internalize the music. To learn the rules by embedding great playing in our own performance, and then using that as a springboard.

    Then there are guys like me: the only way I'm gonna hear good bebop coming out of my own amplifier is pretty much by copying a good bebop player.

    ya know?

  17. #41

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    I think too, how many of us got into jazz right after we picked up a guitar...or picked up a guitar BECAUSE of jazz? I'm guessing not many.

    I didn't get into jazz until I had been playing several years...but the the first few years I played I copied stuff of records all the time. So when I got into jazz I was like "Shit, I've done all this copying already, I wanna be original"

    But of course, I couldn't play!

    But I'm guessing that "square one" feeling turns a lot of guitar players off to copying.

    The first jazz tune I did learn to play I did transcribe...Grant Green's "Selma March." I thought it sounded easy. I learned quickly it wasnt't.

  18. #42

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    My transition from rock to jazz was going nowhere until I started transcribing. Last 12 months of transcribing has been a revelation for me. I have learnt 3 complete solos and maybe 12 blues heads. I am now really starting to feel the rhythms and sing the blues in my own improvisations.

  19. #43

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    When I started guitar lessons at the age of about twelve or thirteen, I studied with a guy who taught improvisation by giving me a bunch of rules about theory, and then having me write out my solos.

    IMHO, this was a terrible way to learn how to solo, because it wasn't coming from any real jazz influence.
    One day I sat down in my basement with a reel to reel player, and spent ten hours copying and writing out a Kenny Burrell solo I liked.
    I went in to my lesson the next day or so, and my teacher couldn't believe how much better my improvising was.
    When I told him what I did, he said, 'Oh'...

    It's always been the same way with the rock students I've taught. I show them the basic BS about the pentatonic scale, and give them some exercises, and then tell them to copy whomever they like.

    They come back playing rock better than I ever could. But when I try to get them to do that with jazz, they can't, because they don't want to spend ten hours figuring out a solo.
    Instead, they copy some Benson licks, and they think they can play jazz.
    It don't work like that...

  20. #44

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    i always learn a lot from transcribing, simply because it forces me to deal with someone else's timing/rhythmic choices. years ago i transcribed a bunch of oscar moore's work-- some fills and comping as well as solos. i learned a lot from that experience. but i haven't filled out a repertoire of memorized solos. i usually forget them fairly quickly. i have i think two of Oscar's (both short solos) that i can still play note-for-note.

    but most of the solos i learn mostly the way henry is describing, working out what the key idea is or teasing out the part that is really different from how i would've approached the piece, and then moving on.

    the funny thing is that the handful i do have in memory turn out to drift over time. one of the first solos i ever learned was james burton's lead on working man blues. been playing it for years as a head. had the record on a few months back and realized how much i had drifted emphasis and phrasing to suit my voice. hadn't even known i was doing it--

    sort of funny.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I think too, how many of us got into jazz right after we picked up a guitar...or picked up a guitar BECAUSE of jazz? I'm guessing not many...
    That's funny because, although I liked the music from the rock god guitarists, my first interest was jazz because I liked the idea of improvisation and really dug jazz and fusion music. The first book I purchased right when I bought my first guitar was Jazz Picture Chords. My main dilemma for years was when people wanted me to play campfire songs and the like. I just have never been interested in doing anything like that, but I would accompany someone else if that is what they wanted to do. I honestly didn't get into guitar to impress people. It just interested me.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That's a very narrow way to look at it. But you don't have to if you don't want to:-)

    Btw when I started studying Dexter it's like the history of jazz coming out his horn... Prez to Coltrane... Fantastic, loved getting to that.

    It all sounds like Dexter though. In fact studying solos taught me that note choices don't define a player....
    I don't and I never have. I've never seen the value in memorizing a solo. And I'm a huge Dexter fan. I knew him. Had dinner with him several times and saw him play many, many times. I learned a few of his solos. Not memorized. My method was to go line by live, phrase by phrase. I analyze the the phrase and forget the t. Even if I wrote it down, I'd never memorize it.

    Narrow way of looking? Humph.

  23. #47

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    Well I don't memorize whole solos, but I do try to write out the whole thing. Maybe skip a few parts which are too fast. Then I treat it as etudes. Go over it again and again, re-listen, re-play, work out fingerings. It's indispensable for me. Does so much to expand the music language structures in your brain.

    So one time I was going to re-do a Clifford Brown solo. Got the sheet music out, looked at the CD cover, okay, track 2. Click the CD player up to track 2 and let 'er rip. Whoa, this doesn't sound right, I mean it's been a while since I did this one, it sorta sounds familiar, but come on, way too fast, I would never try to transcribe this.

    Opened up the CD player and there was a Lee Morgan CD sitting there.

  24. #48

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    I think it's great. Maybe I'm just lazy. Getting the whole arc down as to phrasing is important. For me though, lazy man, it just never seemed fun or necessary. Good for those that dig in. Get it.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    I know I've posted this elsewhere, but Tuck Andress says:
    "If I had known then what I know now... I would have sat down and learned how to make every sound that Wes Montgomery made. I would have just started off with that, just the way he started off with Charlie Christian. I wouldn't have thought about it, I wouldn't have tried to understand the harmony, anything. I would have just learned to make those sounds, and that would be the most direct path. Then I could expand and eventually understand, but it would be like a native language."
    This is how children learn to speak, right? They don't know any grammar, but just by listening to others and copying them they can master it perfectly and learn the language. I think learning to play jazz works just the same.

    Recently I deliberately stopped thinking about chords and harmony when I'm improvising, and I just listen and play the notes I would sing and hear in my head and my playing level jumped forward a giant leap. And of course what I hear in my head is put there by practicing, listing to others and copying lines and solos (although I rarely transcribe a whole solo). Surprisingly it also works pretty well for songs I don't know at all.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    I don't and I never have. I've never seen the value in memorizing a solo. And I'm a huge Dexter fan. I knew him. Had dinner with him several times and saw him play many, many times. I learned a few of his solos. Not memorized. My method was to go line by live, phrase by phrase. I analyze the the phrase and forget the t. Even if I wrote it down, I'd never memorize it.

    Narrow way of looking? Humph.
    Well now you are making me very envious haha.

    Narrow? Yes. I think learning a solo and playing it along with the record is a very rich practice activity that taught me stuff. I certainly don't feel it was time wasted. Off the top of my head it taught me:

    - Little nuances about Charlie Christian's phrasing - really put thing under the microscope.
    - Technique too, because it's not easy to play.
    - I'd already analysed the solo in detail, worked on and developed the phrases in various ways and incorporated it into my improvising.
    - Plus there's the ear training side of getting it down to begin with.
    - Also, if you write the thing down, that will work your knowledge of notation....
    - Finally getting recording it made me appreciate the gap between the actuality of what I was doing and what I thought I was doing - homing in on the details and so on. I'm still not happy with it.

    So that's loads of different stuff you could practice in different ways, but I like the way transcribing and playing something really works a load of different stuff at the same time. In this sense it's actually a very time effective way to practice.

    But on the other hand if you entered into that activity because you felt that you should, it would be crap. And like you say - Chris Potter. So yeah.