The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Maybe this is unrelated to the topic, but keep in mind that guitar only has notes at 132, or so, fret positions. It is entirely possible for minds and motor skills to memorize their characteristics with enough exposure. Sure there are tons of nuances as far as using a note, but some form of the note is there whether it being in a single note solo or chord. Playing by ear and spontaneously is a huge part of the jazz experience. At least it is for me. I am sure for countless others as well.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    If we want to use the whole "music is language" metaphor (which is flawed, at best) then I ask this question...

    Would a child learn a huge vocabulary, then go back and learn how to speak? Or would they start putting words together immediately and using them to communicate, as means to an end?

  4. #53
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Would a child learn a huge vocabulary, then go back and learn how to speak?
    Only if there was some kind of disorder (pragmatic-syntactic).

    On the other hand, an autonomous learner wishing to improve control of register and style might do just that.
    Last edited by destinytot; 01-08-2016 at 02:01 PM.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    But f$&@! NARROW????!!? For you maybe. Not for me. You have to be careful when you start applying things that might apply to yourself and assuming it plies to other people. The way I did it was perfect for me and it's offensive that you would say my method is narrow for me!
    Clearly I communicated my point poorly, and you seem to feel I am attacking you or questioning your approach.

    You said words to the effect of 'I think that playing a solo along with a record would take up time spent better doing other things' (I hope that's reasonably accurate) and I felt that was a narrow view, because actually that activity gives a lot back. So that's what I meant by narrow.

    But on the other hand, what you do presumably works for you (it sounds similar to the route other jazz musicians have taken, such as Emily Remler, Chris Potter etc). I think it's a waste of energy to criticise someone else's approach, especially when things I used to be very certain about turn out to be more complex as I learn more. It's much better to try and be open, and I am genuinely interested in reading about other people's ways of working.

    I certainly wouldn't dissuade someone from learning solos and playing along with them (especially early on) but I wouldn't necessarily insist on it. Every student is different.
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-08-2016 at 02:13 PM.

  6. #55

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    One thing that helped me develop jazz syncopation was listening to Wes and simply playing along. Playing my own solo, but trying to emulate the rhythms Wes was playing. I do believe transcribing is important though. Sitting there with my head phones in listening to a full albums at a time of one specific person such as Clifford Brown, Charlie Parker, Lee Morgan, Dizzy Gillespie, Sonny Rollins, and putting my full attention to that music for the duration of the album has been the best thing I could do for my overall musicianship. Immersing myself in the music.
    Last edited by blues442; 01-10-2016 at 10:04 AM.

  7. #56

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    I started out by learning charts I liked by different artists--from Hendrix to Page...to Christian to Montgomery...to Hall to Pass. It was how I gained insight into how those artists thought. As a kid my dad told me that Christian was the king of the diminished scale. I didn't know what that meant. By slowing down charts like 7 Come 11 or Air Mail Special, I was able to see what my father meant.

    I never was much for performing other people's solos--just too impatient to be a jukebox, I guess. I did and do enjoy learning other people's work though.

  8. #57

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    You've got to get the sound of jazz in your ears and under your fingers. How you do that is up to you- copping licks, learning whole solos by ear, listening intently and absorbing the music through emotions, colors, go to Berklee, whatever. There is no single way that is guaranteed to get you to be a competent jazz musician. For some people there is no way to become a competent jazz musician no matter what they do (sad and harsh but true). For some people it comes easy, others get there by the sweat of their brow.

    What way works for me? I've only been at this for 35 years, I'll let you know when I get there...

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well, that approach seems to have served you well...

    I used to be a transcription Nazi as that's the way most of my favourite guys learned. But there is a significant minority of my favourite guys who never transcribed much.

    I started rethinking this when I went to a Peter Bernstein workshop and he mentioned he had transcribed a Charlie Christian solo once years ago in college, but in general he likes to pick up individual licks and work out what's going on. Emily Remler was also wonderfully dismissive about the idea of learning a whole solo note for note ('Who does that?' She said - well, errr... Wes, Emily haha.) But back in the days of '78s a solo might be a chorus or less, and that's not so many licks to learn.
    I was just listening to an Emily Remler interview, and she talks about how she used to couldn't wait to get out of school so she could rush home and transcribe the latest Wes Montgomery solo. (50 second mark)


  10. #59

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    Solo's only? Fun maybe..... I did a lot of it back in the day learning blues and rock stuff, but doesn't add any long term value (or a deeper understanding) to your playing if you don't grasp the underlying harmony and WHY say, Wes is playing those particular notes on those particular chords.

    That he would substitute Minor 7 and Dom. for each other, etc.

    Right now I'm having tons of fun analyzing Wes's Days of Wine & Roses solo with the underlying chords. Some majorly cool bada** stuff in there.

  11. #60

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    If you talk to great players, most have transcribed. But not all. Some will admit that they never did it much.

    And to hijack the thread just a bit:

    Same thing with practicing with a metronome. Even some teachers who routinely recommend it will admit that they never did it.

    On-line discussions seem to have a shared vision of the goal (not everybody, of course) which seems to be "well rounded jazz player".

    But, a lot of the greats were not "well-rounded". For some, style may be shaped by what you can't do.

    Reading seems to be part of "well-rounded", but lots of the greats either didn't read or didn't read well.

    Playing outside seems to be part of "well-rounded", but not every great player does much of it.

    Transcription to build jazz vocabulary is considered essential by many (and there's no question that most great players evolved through it) but not everybody transcribes.

  12. #61

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    Some of the posts on this thread from 2016 are very thoughtful.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChazFromCali
    Solo's only? Fun maybe..... I did a lot of it back in the day learning blues and rock stuff, but doesn't add any long term value (or a deeper understanding) to your playing if you don't grasp the underlying harmony and WHY say, Wes is playing those particular notes on those particular chords.

    That he would substitute Minor 7 and Dom. for each other, etc.

    Right now I'm having tons of fun analyzing Wes's Days of Wine & Roses solo with the underlying chords. Some majorly cool bada** stuff in there.

    This may be of use:


  14. #63

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    Yotam Silberstein playing along a famous Coleman Hawkins solo — at first I thought he was playing along silently but later on there are spots where you hear he is really playing.


  15. #64

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    I just finished transcribing an entire tune on youtube where the entire group was a quarter tone below 440.
    It was a huge PITA! The instrumentation was sax, electric piano, Electric bass and rhythm.
    Has anyone encountered this before? What was the reason for it?

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    I just finished transcribing an entire tune on youtube where the entire group was a quarter tone below 440.
    It was a huge PITA! The instrumentation was sax, electric piano, Electric bass and rhythm.
    Has anyone encountered this before? What was the reason for it?
    probably just uploaded at the wrong speed somehow, I've encountered it on youtube before, try another version if available, but a quick story.
    about 25 yrs I was working my first gig w/a Hammond B-3 player I heard quite a bit about, and was really looking forward to it and hoping to make an impression as he was constantly working. the very first tune @ the club something sounded off and I spun around in the middle to check my guitar w/a tuner and found I was in tune but it still sounded off. then a guy came up to the bandstand, dropped three $50s in the tip jar and said "you guys were smokin, but something sounded funny" I then tuned up to the organ and found I was 1/4 tone flat. I told the organ player to turn it off and restart it, that fixed it. the problem was he didn't let the organ generator get up to speed in standby mode.

  17. #66

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    The London orchestras tuned to 439 Hz, from 1896 to 1939. It was known as the 'new philharmonic pitch', after the Royal Philharmonic Society adopted it (the old philharmonic pitch was 452 Hz).

  18. #67

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    I was just wondering if that rapper 50 cent’s name was refering to a quarter-tone LOL

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    I just finished transcribing an entire tune on youtube where the entire group was a quarter tone below 440.
    It was a huge PITA! The instrumentation was sax, electric piano, Electric bass and rhythm.
    Has anyone encountered this before? What was the reason for it?
    Tuning precisely to A440 is a modern luxury. Groups used to tune to the piano that went sharp or flat over time. If no piano you would tune to the bass players A because that usually stayed in tune.

    Lots of music is off like this. Nobody paid attention to A440 it just mattered if the band was in tune with themselves.
    Last edited by AllanAllen; 10-08-2022 at 05:16 PM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes
    This may be of use:

    Thanks.
    I learned a couple of things from that. One of them I already knew.... everyone hears things differently. Not bad, not good, it just is.

    Another was that Ami.11th (6th string root), very helpful. I'm glad he went thru the chords explaining the subs. I have a bit better grasp on the logic of that now.

    But @9:20 why he changes position on the Eb9 lick (last 4 notes) and goes down to the F on the 3rd fret for his index finger, I don't know. I much prefer the F with my pinky on the 8th fret. A more "angular" sound IMO with the large interval, and I can stay in one position. Whatever, personal preference I guess.

    And D7#9 on that little 3 chord resolution into the solo? Uh.... no. I don't hear that at all. I hear more like Ab13, Ab7, C6. Or maybe even a DbM7 on the 1st chord but I like the Ab13 better.

    Everyone, and their cousin Bobby takes a hack at this tune on YT, easily 100 versions of people beating on it. I would too probably if i had a camera, lol. But Beato's is probably the best (explanation, if not performance) of it I've seen.

  21. #70

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    I'm gonna start learning solos that are already transcribed. I think I would get much more benefit from that than telling myself I should transcribe and then never doing it lol. I'm gonna start with the Miles solo on Freddie Freeloader.

    Edit: Ok, maybe I'll plunk out a few bars of transcriptions. For sure going to work on playing through entire solos.

    Double edit: Wait I take that back. I learned my teacher's tune, indonesian nights, by ear.
    Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 10-10-2022 at 07:41 PM.