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This is why I make a HUGE STINK about not thinking while playing. You don't have to think while still knowing your stuff. This is exactly what I feared with this ear training thread. And I think when I say I'm thoroughly misunderstood. For MYSELF I am not really thinking at all. But I've done this enough to where I can just LOOK at the chords and the neck and KNOW where all the notes are WITHOUT THINKING. And THIS is how Brecker and everyone else does it I SWEAR. But nobody wants to hear this because it's over the heads or something. There is no short cut.
Originally Posted by christianm77
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10-07-2015 10:35 PM
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Henry, your frustration is similar to my own about ear training. This isn't a short cut. I devote 70% of practice to ear training and I've been doing it for 6 years (or more, lost count
)I do it so much so I don't have to think on the bandstand.
My process on the bandstand is
1. I hear the band
2. I play
3. I hear what I play with the band
4. I play
And go back to step one. This all happens instantaneously, like (and I know this is cliche) speech. I don't think. If I think, or if I even LOOK at the chart while improvising all is lost
. I am even trying to do this for my comping. Why do this? So I can show off here of course
...No, I do this because it gives me more of an oppurtunity to participate in the music "group discussion" of the band. Of course I have some voicings that I gravitate towards to express harmony and harmonic movement. But sometimes, I will just use two notes so that I can really focus on hearing the band and adding to the band (especially with a pianist). These two note movements are improvised according to that sonic atmosphere. But I had to learn how to do this so that it doesn't sound meandering. Those two note movements still express harmony, but they function differently than block chords.
The practice room is for thinking, the bandstand is for playing... who said that? It's true
Last edited by Irez87; 10-07-2015 at 11:26 PM.
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Excellent. The ear is where it's at, to use an old dated bromide. But I also have to know what I'm doing. You don't always have to. My ear always leads the way. Always. But I navigate the neck. I navigate through my internal voice. I can go about it in multiple ways: I can just "sing" or listen and respond totally aurally. Or I can go more advanced and stack other tonalities, borrowed ii-Vs, foreign triads for poly-chordal stuff, extensions and alterations, neighbors. Now sometimes I don't HEAR those until I get there. IOW I might not HEAR the +5 Maj7 until I hit it, THEN I hear it and it opens other doors for hearing.
But I'm the kind of guy who has to know and understand what it is I'm doing. Don't get me wrong. I'm NOT THINKING through any of this. But I have done my thinking years before.
My position: It would be like walking to the store. Are you THINKING about taking each step? Or are you walking to the store thinking about anything you want to think about? Are you analyzing the route or how much pressure to exert on your leg? I hope not. But perhaps at some point in the distant past as a toddler, or heaven forbid, after a serious injury, you had to THINK each step all over again.
For me THINKING is an exertion of energy. It's a force that requires effort. Looking at a picture or pictures is not thinking. This is where there's a difference of definitions. I can look at the number 77. I get a picture of that number. It's not like thinking what is 77 divisible by? THEN I think.
I can look at C7b9. I can see all the notes of the intervals of that chord every place on the neck. Now all I do is sing. I'm not thinking. There's no effort in thought. All ear with knowledge. I hear a 4th I know where that is. I hear the b9 I know where that is. I hear a note I know it's the 13th or b5, #5. I'm not really guessing and I'm not effort thinking. I'm seeing. Like seeing a mountain range. I'm not climbing it. I'm playing. I'm looking. My fingers are moving of their own accord. Responding to the music.
Brecker didn't not now this. Brecker knew this stuff far better than me. He wasn't thinking. But he saw the intervals. He saw the shapes. Heard the colors. Felt the corners. Dreamed the pictures.
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Thanks guys, I hear you.
Hear it, sing it then play it whether transcribing, improvising or song writing. Whether in amazing slow downer mode 30 beats a minute or real time improvisation mode.
I am learning so much from this forum and improving and am loving it. Every couple of months it is like having a new CD collection as I hear so much more better.
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I would say the reason is because the development of Ear Training is a very gradual process. It's much easier to sell a book or DVD that gives the learner quick results - quick results encourage the learner and more importantly sell books. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
I agree with you that Ear Training is very important, and I would like to see it emphasised more in published books/ DVDs as well as in online jazz guitar instruction.
From a personal standpoint, I'm finishing my Masters in NYC and ALL the old guys and professors stress the importance of ear training. Just last week I had a master class with Dick Oats who said "only play what you hear." Mr Oats said he didn't even try to play Coltrane lines till he felt he could really feel and hear those lines.
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I think this post is a good idea for a fixed one, where people can share his ideas about transcribing.
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I love Dick Oatts. I meet him at a masterclass in CCNY. I started humming him the tune I liked and he was like, yeah man, that's Mel's Minor. I was like, YEAHHHHH!
He was soo down to earth. I met Liebman at another master class and he was a great player... but really vibe-y. I am sure Miles would'da been the same, but when you do a masterclass, that ain't right. People give Barry Harris shit, but at least the man gives you a chance to play and say something.
Who else... Fred Hersch. First time I met him, I was like, this guy has attitude. I heard he was going through a lot at the time, let's leave it at that. Next time he came to CCNY bright eyed and bushy tailed ready to share the wealth of knowledge that he had learned over the years. I was so mad that I couldn't play in his master class... but I sucked even more back then. But he was really nice and really honored my questions. He is all about the interplay between musicians on stage. Look at him with Julian, yeeeow!
Who else... oh shite, the pianist from the Vanguard Orch came: Jim McNeely. He talked all about arrangement, like arrangement in the big band and how it translated to comping. A couple of guys from the Orch came as well... forget who...Rigby, Ralph...
Anyway, all of these masters kept stressing the importance of listening, NOT thinking on stage. Thinking is part of practice, maths are for the shed not the stage. You wanna be able to grab and latch on that sonic atmosphere and energy and use it to tell the audience a story. On stage, playing changes shouldn't be the priority. The changes should be internalized so that you can use em. But when you are on stage, like any great artist/poet, that is your forum to tell a story with the rest of the band. Vincent Herring knows what I'm talking about
If the story telling comparison irks you because it is an overused cliche, I could ask the mods if we could start a thread on what story telling entails in music. I've started to do this in my playing, and i doesn't always work, but the audience responds well to it
Last edited by Irez87; 10-08-2015 at 07:13 AM.
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Yes! Dick Oats literally told me in the masterclass, 'Sam - it sounded like your mind got the better of you in the third chorus of the blues.' That's something I need to figure out ASAPAnyway, all of these masters kept stressing the importance of listening, NOT thinking on stage. Such a nice guy.
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Yes -- NOT THINKING. Think is for the shed.
Here is a further thought not addressed often enough by ear only players. YOUR MIND STILL HAS TO BE IN THE GAME. You can hear all the notes all day, even if you have perfect pitch. That's one thing. But then KNOWING WHERE THOSE NOTES ARE on the guitar is an entirely different matter. Ok, so it's Bb, E, F, A, Ab, G you hear. Then Eb, Bb, Ab, G. You have to be able to grab it so quick you don't think. You have to know the neck. Not be confused by fingering or where to decide to go
Everyone wants the short cut. There is none. You can get there from many different roads and angles, but you still gotta do the work, one way or the other.
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Early ear training is of a single note and another note and discovering the distance between notes(interval training). As you move into chords remember that these are isolated chords. Music doesn't work that way. Do the work, just know this isn't exactly how music works. Music scrolls past, so hearing changes in chord progressions and following the changes is very important. You want to be able to know whether you are on the 5 chord or the 2nd. Then you can move on to the accidentals. These are what are changing your modes/scales. You learn rhythm composition at the same time you learn what you like to hear against these chords. Practice scatting what you play, set the instrument down, keep scatting with the piece. Then, pick the instrument back up, while still scatting, and start playing along again. Scat, then play back on guitar. Scat and harmonize with the guitar. Reverse the harmony. These are good ways to play what your mind is singing. Find songs with lots of modulations of key. Sit and listen without the guitar, while calling out the chord changes to yourself and imagining you're playing in your head. See the fingerboard while you do this and position changes needed to play the chords and solos. That said, the best sound replication technique I've found is to listen to singers and mimic every nuance of their voice. Pick a singer with a small range and lots of character. Perfect that song in their voice on your instrument. Billie Holiday is great for this. Then find a very dynamic singer with lots of range, say Stevie Wonder on Talking Book or Inner Visions album and do your best to recreate that voice. Don't just get the notes. Every warble, pant, lisp, bend, grunt, vibrato and bead of sweat should be represented. That best helped me connect sound to the string. Ear training is really just learning to listen and being able to describe what happened.
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That's EXCELLENT advice. Whenever I transcribe something I always wait until I get the phrase in my head, with the guitar down in my lap. Then I pick up the guitar and try and play it. Check it,listen and pick up the guitar again. I never do hunt and peck. It's gotta come from your head. Same as the scatting thing. And you're absolutely right about chord progressions and visualizing the fretboard while you listen. Originally Posted by zappafan99
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Spending the time with instrument in hand while ear training is part of the process, because if you can hear everthing and identify it, but don't have the chops to transfer it to your instrument and your playing, then you're kind of missing the point if you want to be a performer/player.
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I do not believe I am qualified to talk what Brecker was or wasn't seeing, feeling or experiencing. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
However, from what he was saying, Wayne Krantz had this vision of playing like a completely untutored player, in a way... Pretty purist! He was pretty clear about this. No solfege, no interval training, any of that (presumably he has studied this at some point).
He said that if he let himself really improvise, melodies would just come to him that were not like those he would normally play , but which were natural to him (he gave the example of improvising lullabies to his daughter). He felt that the most important thing was just open himself up to that and play the melodies as he heard them - and develop the ability to play them on his instrument without errors. (It was in this context that he mentioned Mike Brecker with whom he had worked, obviously.)
I mention it not because this is an approach I am following (not brave enough!), but rather because I think it's interesting idea. There are different avenues of approach to the problem of ear training, and as many ways of hearing music as there are people, almost. Most of us hear will be approaching it from the point of view of, I want to hear this chord quality or this phrase, and visualise where it sits in the key and so on, but I thought that Wayne's idea was a very interesting and beautiful one.
Wayne's improvisation, obviously, is not very harmony based, which might make it easier. But then, what is harmony beyond voices moving together and apart?
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There are plenty of videos and interviews with Brecker. It's not mysterious. The process of improv is common enough.
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No it's not. You hear some notes and you play them on your instrument, Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Nothing is easier.
Nothing is harder.
Everything else is a safety net to get you through the gig...
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Yes, well at a certain point it's all pretty easy. They are ridiculously hard tempos, fast AND slow, and very unusual chords and professions. Certainly rhythmic shapes can be a challenge to grok, but at a certain point you know and trust what you know. It's gotta get tithe point where it's as natural as talking.
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Everything is a pattern.
1. Listen, recognize patterns, transcribe them.
2. Practice patterns on your instrument.
3. Connect what you're hearing to what you're playing.
4. Strengthen the patterns that "speak" to you, that inspire feelings you want to share with your audience.
When you've invested a gazillion hours doing this, it takes a lot of the mystery away. Then you can focus on "What am I feeling and what do I want to share with my audience?"
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I didn't define "pattern" because it could be a melody, bass line, progression, turnaround lick ... It really all is patterns. I started doing this 50 years ago (as a very very small child - my father was a musician too), and these days my only audience is my wife. I can still bring tears to her eyes any time. When you get to this point, you get the luxury of forgetting the mechanics and focusing on the feelings. Then you really fall in love with the music.
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As far as ear training, my opinion. Try to do, as much as possible, what the really good players do.
I was taking lessons from a really strong jazz player in town. I was taking community college ear training classes at the time and demonstrated some of the stuff we were doing, like singing all the modes, intervals etc. He said, "wow, I can't do a lot of that".
People like him never set out to do ear training, it just happened as a side effect of everything else they were doing.
That was a lesson to be learned for me. He could pick up chord progression immediately, he knew probably about a thousand tunes, he also could figure out recorded solos and melodies really easily. He could play circles around me, and his ear in a practical sense was so much better than mine. His ear was much more "macro" than mine. What I was learning in class... micro.
What he had done, learned music from recordings, learned tunes from friends, spent tons of time playing, spent tons of time on the bandstand, all that had worked.
Do what has proven to work. Just learn tunes it will help your ear and your playing. The proof is from how well my instructor and thousands like him have learned and how well they play.Last edited by fep; 10-08-2015 at 09:19 PM.
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I reckon if ear training isn't directly useful for making you better at being a 'bandstand musician' it's a waste of time. At least for me.
Personally I'm finding that degree based ear training (solfege) in combination with transcription and dictation makes a steady improvement in my ears. The advantage is you are actually doing stuff that's relevant to your music in general...
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