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  1. #1

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    I wanted to journal my ear training adventures with you all. I put this under "from the bandstand" because this form of ear training is readily usable on the stage.

    My arm is fudged up a little, so I will make the first entry short. Got the new Key Note series. Deals with seventh chord harmony instead of triads. Here's a link:

    Key Note Recognition Ear Training - Muse EEKMuse EEK

    I've found that sounds I thought I understood were actually weak. For instance:

    1. 4th in a minor key

    2. 4th in a major key

    3. confusing the 6 in minor for the b5

    ....Anyway, I would envision this thread as a semi-daily update on how I train my ear. There are many ways to train the ear, but this might help someone who is looking for new musicianship material. If you don't like the entries, that's cool. I need to journal this stuff anyway, and I thought I could involve y'all in the process.
    Last edited by Irez87; 09-22-2015 at 05:25 AM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    Got a new version of Key Note Recognition, it's with organ.

    minor/maj7 chords actually messed with my ability to hear certain pitches against a key. Good stuff! Every problem I find is a new opportunity to refocus my studies.

    As I was driving home (no traffic for once!) something clicked (no it wasn't my indicator light) and was finally able to sing b6's (lay) and b2's (rah) against changing key centers. Exciting. I've been slacking on singing through Joy Spring, gotta get back to the shed.

    My ability to hear 2 note harmony got a little worse. These new sonic contexts are messing with my hearing, but it's yet another hole that I need to address.

    I am getting better at hearing 2 notes in melodic succession within a key. It's hard because these notes are played by a muted trumpet and they are displaced by an octave such as C0 to Ab4. But it's getting better, slowly.

    Love the journey, accept the challenges, and stop typing (idiot I am to do this while I should be resting my hands... addiction?)

  4. #3

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    If you need to be resting your hands maybe you should do a video journal instead? Could just do it on a cameraphone.

  5. #4
    I have a flip phone, but I could use my computer cam... just don't want my face all over youtube. I have to do some typing for work (I work in SPED, a lot of paperwork on the computer with IEP's) so I can do a little typing here. As long as someone is interested, I'll continue.
    Last edited by Irez87; 09-23-2015 at 06:28 AM.

  6. #5
    Today I went through the Key Retention Builder:

    Ear training & key retention builder for musicians book & audioMuse EEK

    The diatonic studies are quite hard because they involve wide leaps of more than an octave, and this furthers Bruce's point of hearing pitches within a tonal center instead of hearing intervals in a vacuum... Anyway, I am finally hearing most of the pitches in my head and singing them in tune! Exciting stuff for me (took me a while to get to this point)!

    Then I tried singing through the Melodic Minor studies, because they have wide leaps and are not straight foward and scale like. For instance, there are phrases like the following:

    (pitches) Eb B A Eb A G F C D G A C D

    The whole point is to ingrain the key instead of hearing pitches as separate entities

    The study on C mixolydian b6 is even harder.

    Good stuff, keeps me busy while my arm heals. Btw, I read that it is not recommended to keep a tennis elbow strap on when you aren't playing. Best bet is to exercise the forearm (gently) and not play the guitar for a little bit. I think I can survive (barely).

  7. #6
    New entry,

    Starship log 2015. 20 hundred hours. Today we set course to Planet Arnold...

    So, I've given y'all a taste of my practicing... but where did it all begin (cue wavy transition)...

    It began with the study of three core study materials:

    1. One Note Complete:

    Ear training one note for musicians book with audioMuse EEK

    2. Contextual Ear Training (still use to this day):

    Contextual ear training for musicians book with audioMuse EEK

    3. Key Note Recognition

    ... those were my bread and butter for 3 years...

  8. #7
    Okay, I think many of you are tired of my ear training rants. New idea for this thread. It's called performance ear training, right? So I propose that you send me clips of songs you're listening to (any genre) and I have to respond asap with an improvisation based off of that song (give me time to upload it).

    But here's the deal, I can't sit with the song and try and learn it. The response has to be immediate to "simulate" the performance aspect.

    I can't guarantee it will be amazing, but it could be a cool idea. I'd love to listen to new stuff to try and get it into my playing. So what say you, forum of all forums?

    If it takes off, we could send each other songs to improvise over.

    Just, give me a break with Giant Steps at tempo, right now. Let me know. Could be the start of something very interesting

    If you all wanna try it, give me a time EST to start. I want to honor the "performance" aspect of the idea.

  9. #8
    My girlfriend is very strong. I would listen to it whenever we went walking to a restaurant or through the park. I also listened while driving. Finally, I listened right before getting ready for work in the morning and before turning in. Bruce recommends at least 4-5 times a day.

    I am currently using his two note harmony courses, 2 note melodic courses as well, advanced key note series (with jazz organ, get the basics first ) and rhythm and pulse studies. I still use the same crazy practice regiment of 7-8 times (or more) a day with all the material. Remember how I said 60-70% of my practice is ear training, well now you may see how that becomes a reality in your own practice time.

    The more you listen, the faster your ear will pick up on the concepts. Remember, there should be no thinking involved with these courses. The only thought you want to have is for the Contextual Ear Training. Think a tone, like try to hear the 3rd of Ab before you sing it. Even if the note you heard in your mind is wrong, you are practicing the right method of accessing that note.

    Do NOT relate any of what you are hearing to songs, melodies, etc. To get out of this habit, practice responding (especially for Key Note and Contextual) as FAST as possible. Response time is key, because this is performance ear training, not "hey band, pause for a sec whilst I find the note" ear training. You will get a lot of stuff wrong in the beginning (or you might be awesome already, I wasn't) but the right answer isn't important at first... Sounds crazy and makes you doubt me, right? I had a hard time with that concept as well, being a perfectionist and all. But the right answer is not the point in the beginning, the response time is.

    Quick and wrong is better than right and long... before anyone criticizes, read through Bruce's FAQ's on muse-eek.com. You are training the performance aspect. Trust me, you will get more answers right as you go on. But tell your "critical me" to shut the hell up (as they say in counseling) and just focus on speed.

    Bruce is really great with responding to emails. I don't think people quite understand how much of his life he's devoted to the study of musicianship and how to teach musicianship. There's a reason why I went back to him after all these years.

    But, if he doesn't get back to you quick enough, post your questions here. I will do my best to get back in a timely fashion. I'm excited about geeking out over this stuff with someone else . There's so many courses on Bruce's site, I have many of them and I am running out of room on my poor laptop--but they are worth it. Chris '77 studied some of his stuff as well.
    Last edited by Irez87; 09-27-2015 at 09:14 AM.

  10. #9
    Thought I'd add this to the journal. Jean-Michel zero's in on exactly why I devote so much time to my ear training and musicianship:



    I always want to create with the band, even when I solo. It's hard, it opens you up to flubs, but it is so much more fun than playing rehearsed licks and chords all the time and not taking risks. My identity is lost in the process, and so is my ego (if I am doing it right) but the sound is elevated.

  11. #10

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    Thanks man! I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. The ear training at my college was pretty ropy and it's taken all this time and reading your posts to kick my arse in gear. I'll keep you posted

  12. #11
    Please do. The huge concept with Bruce's material is that everyone hears the exercises a little differently. That's where traditional ear training falls short, it's like my way or the high way. Bruce is all about key center, yes, but he is also all about helping you navigate how you hear. Curious to see how you hear this stuff. Once you get into the two note studies, it becomes ALL you and how you process sound. That's where I'm at, it is interesting as all can be. But it is really freaking tough as well and it's kicking my arse
    Last edited by Irez87; 09-27-2015 at 11:27 AM.

  13. #12

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    For ex. Hearing things like #5 in certain registers and even the major 3. I'll report back in a week.

  14. #13
    Actually, this is what Bruce recommends. To keep track of which pitches give you trouble. The #5 still gives me trouble from time to time. It depends on your experience with that pitch in a key. I've also mixed up the major 3 with the 6th frequently in the past. I think you are still hearing the notes as intervals, and not as distinct sounds in the key. Or you might even be inadvertently modulating. Everyone's ear is different. Stick with the basics, and you will fly in time.

  15. #14

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    Yes, totally, it's like "there is no method" just memorise the sound of each pitch in the key, I guess just repetition is the answer. Can you pinpoint a time where this began to improve you improvisation?

    Can you describe the before and after differences?

  16. #15
    Listen to my sound sample


    No that wouldn't really help it. The before was me being locked into position playing and flubbing all over the place because I only knew some licks and the 5 positions. The after is still happening. I can play tunes without knowing the tune or having the sheet music (standards) and for the tunes I do know, I can actually start crafting my story telling. Does it always sound great, no. But it sounds cohesive and I can concern myself with development more than "where is the 3rd of Cmaj 6 in first position?" I did that stuff with Kenny Wessel, and it really helped, but there is so much more to music than that (those are the foundations, but you gotta build on those foundations).

    The most exciting part of these studies is that I can do what I love to listen to in jazz, I can partake in a true dialogue and improvise. Watch that video of Jean Michel-Pilc talking about improvisation in a group that I posted here, he says it much better than I (and in a French accent).Ear training helps you really own the stuff you already know and it gives you the confidence to reach for stuff you've never played before. You become aware of how everything works sonically, not just theoretically. Right now, I am hearing how certain voicings suggest melodic material that other voicings, even if the progression is the same.

    Is it amazing? No. Is it extremely fun? Hell yes. But I could only access this mode of improvisation with in depth ear training and rhythm training studies. Everyone is different, but this stuff really resonated with me.

    Now I have people come up to me and compliment my playing. I was the worst musician in college, I sucked. Now I hear these compliments and I'm like "are they really talking about ME?"

    Lastly, it makes for an even more interesting journey into music that is centered around the ear as much as it is centered on the mind. I've expressed frustration on theory in the forum because it was just taught as notes on a page with very little sonic context when I learned it. Now I go back to that old theory and it sounds like the most beautiful stuff in the world. Series 2 CounterPoint sounds like a story between two interesting old folks.

    Just a smattering of my experience. You will craft your own with the courses, I am sure. It's not easy, it's not an over night gimmick, but you will slowly notice things in your playing that you weren't doing before. Keep at it!

  17. #16
    Short (relatively) journal entry to get those of you who are following this thread some perspective:

    Ear training is not something you learn with solfege and put to the side. You can train your ear for the rest of your life, and still have material that will be new to your ears. Solfege is an extremely important aspect of the process, but it ain't the end all be all.

    Ear training is as vast and expansive as the study of music is. People who state "whatever, I can hear everything that I play" I bet they have some holes in one aspect of their hearing, whether it is harmonic or rhythmic in nature (rhythm and pulse are part of ear training, IMO, believe it or not).

    I went through some of the more advanced Key Note Recognition studies from Bruce Arnold, and I felt like I was starting at day one. That's exciting, because I am throwing my ear into new sonic situations.

    I was also studying the two note harmony studies, the sixths volume. I heard E and C# today and all of a sudden heard it part of an E augmented triad (E G# C) with a C# on top. The C sounded like the augmented sixth to me. However, last week, I heard those two notes as the 5th and major 3rd in A major. The C that I sung against the dyad sounded like the b3 against the A major.

    Also, today I was ear training pulse.

    What the heck is that, you say?

    Well, ear training pulse is all about learning how a certain tempo sounds by heart.

    Many of us use the metronome to click on 2 and 4. I would challenge you to have it click on the downbeat of the measure, or the and of four.

    What I am studying is even more expansive. Instead of the metronome clicking on the downbeat, the metronome clicks every eight measure. Only one click per eight measures. That looks like this

    (CLICK) 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4

    However, you don't count

    I worked myself up to this skill, here is how I got there:

    Developing a sense of time for musicians book with audioMuse EEK

    Developing a sense of time for musicians book with audioMuse EEK

    How to develop rhythm & timing for musicians book with audioMuse EEK

    Start with one click every measure.

    Enjoy
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-03-2015 at 02:31 PM.

  18. #17
    Finally getting some of the Hearing Bass Lines right:

    How to hear bass lines for guitar bookMuse EEK

    I'm working off of the Intermediate Level.

    The low pitch set, coupled with the slew of non-diatonic notes, and hearing four notes against a cadence, make this course extremely challenging. I had to use Bruce's 2 Note Melodic Trombone, and Trumpet before I could even grapple with the bass lines.

    But, think of how important the bassist is in a jazz outfit (or any outfit). The pianist could be huffing along, the guitarist could be puffing about, but the bass player determines the harmony and locks in the groove (even more so than the drummer, in some cases). If you can hear the bass, you won't be all over the place (if the bassist knows what's up )

  19. #18
    I took two Skype lessons with this guy... and I got more nervous Skyping with him than taking in person lessons with James Chirillo (what the heck is wrong with me? )

    Anyway, check this out:

    Pedal Points, Part 1: Lower Pedals | Lesson by Steve Herberman | Mike's Master Classes

    Steve talks about horizontal harmony! Why do I have this on my Ear Training Journal? Well, I ear train harmony (at least, I try) as horizontal entities. Maybe hearing it from Steve will gain more traction?

    I will be purchasing this.

    Have to schedule my third Skype lesson with Steve. He charges $65, but you have to have an exact idea of what you wanna study with him (he loves going on musical tangents, but I loved listening to them)

  20. #19

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    Great stuff man! I watched the video once I've gotten through the Barry Greene stuff I'll look into him

    On an aside, I'm now hearing the pitches on the beginner level single note course much better, strangely I'm hearing the #5 as a b9 against the dominant chord, what's that all about. Also I seem to be hearing notes more in key rather than just against the tonic.

    Although sometimes I'm mistaking very simple notes for more complicated ones, on occasion a C# in the upper octave really stumps me!

  21. #20
    The C# in the higher octave can be harder to hear, he also trains you to hear the highest C# on the piano... and the highest C# on a trumpet (more advanced)

    Keep at it. Glad you dig it.

    Look at the pulse and rhythm studies I posted too. Pick up Bruce's Big Metronome and Doing Time Series. Those will get your phrasing on lock in a couple of months. Totally rethink how to hear time, really cool.

  22. #21
    destinytot Guest
    I've begun watching some Bruce Arnold ear training lessons on True Fire (part of the 'NYC Jazz Summit' course) as an introduction to his teaching and before approaching the specific techniques on this thread, which I find intriguing.

  23. #22
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    I wanted to journal my ear training adventures with you all. I put this under "from the bandstand" because this form of ear training is readily usable on the stage.

    My arm is fudged up a little, so I will make the first entry short. Got the new Key Note series. Deals with seventh chord harmony instead of triads. Here's a link:

    Key Note Recognition Ear Training - Muse EEKMuse EEK

    I've found that sounds I thought I understood were actually weak. For instance:

    1. 4th in a minor key

    2. 4th in a major key

    3. confusing the 6 in minor for the b5

    ....Anyway, I would envision this thread as a semi-daily update on how I train my ear. There are many ways to train the ear, but this might help someone who is looking for new musicianship material. If you don't like the entries, that's cool. I need to journal this stuff anyway, and I thought I could involve y'all in the process.
    I've checked out the samples, and I get it now. Great post. I'm in - I'll order this.

    PS Reminds me of http://esl.fis.edu/teachers/support/krashen.htm
    Last edited by destinytot; 10-04-2015 at 09:15 AM. Reason: PS

  24. #23
    make sure you order the basic stuff first. Not saying that to belittle your musicianship, but you wanna make sure you are approaching the material correctly or you will take a lot longer to make progress with the material. Look post #6

    here is the key note basic (it's great, I just advanced to the next level now, after 5 years with that course)

    Use this course for Key Note:

    Key Note Recognition Voice Ear Training - Muse EEKMuse EEK


    It uses the voice, which I am sure you are comfy with at this point. It sticks to triads. 7th chords can sometimes cloud up hearing key center, and triads are crystal clear. For instance, hearing a "C" will sound like the #5 in E major. That #5 might be cluttered up if you aren't used to hearing that sound with triadic harmony first. Looks like Bruce stopped making the old Key Note

    I'll ask him for a link to the old stuff, to make sure you are on the right track.

    Glad you're interested, his stuff is incredibly vast and goes from simple to incredibly complex. Glad this journal is helping some people As a teacher, that makes me feel mucho bueno. Sorry for my horrible Spanish, I wish I took Spanish instead of French in high school.

    I had a bad experience with French, the language , not the people. Plus, I can totally roll my r's It must be the Moroccan blood in me (my mom is from Meknes)

    PM me for Bruce's email and tell him Alex Link sent you (that's me)

    Bruce's response

    glad to hear you are is getting better and look forward to a lesson soon. Keynote recognition has been replaced and yes the voice course would be the best to start.
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-04-2015 at 09:56 AM.

  25. #24
    For those of you wondering how you can possibly hear a piano chord and find the exact voicing on your guitar, just by listening, Bruce has a method for that (what is this, a Staples commercial? )

    The method is called Two Note Series and Three Note Series (I think he even has a Four Note Series)

    Ear Training Two Note Books - Muse EEKMuse EEK

    But, you have to go through the basics before you get to these courses. Or it will be a waste of time and a waste of money

    Look at post #6 for how to get started. If you are really serious about this musicianship study, PM me and I'll give you Bruce's email. Studying with him, at first, seems like a cult. But you learn to branch out and use his methods to apply to your own musical journey.

  26. #25

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    Interesting thread.

    How would you rate David Burge's Relative Pitch ear Training Course Alex?

    Scroll down to see the course contents.

  27. #26
    I wouldn't rate it because I've never used it. What I am doing here is helping out with a method that I've devoted 6 years of study to. To evaluate David's methods would be disingenuous, dig? But I will check it out, sure there is good stuff there

  28. #27
    All this talk about outlining changes and not thinking melodically might cause me to post how I currently learn changes... away from the guitar and not driven exclusively by the mental maths of theory. Now, there is theory involved, but the ear is in the driver's seat.

    For instance on a blues, Bruce has told me to set a drone on C and sing the following:

    C7: Do Tay (1-b7)

    F7: Fa May (4-b3)

    G7: So Fa (5-4)

    You can replace the F7 with sub changes, like a bIIdom7 or a bVIdom7.

  29. #28

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    want a good ear trainer/awakener?

    loop a short and not too involved guitar run/pattern..keep it very simple..

    now play the exact pattern over it .. but moving through all the chromatic intervals .one at time …from octave below to above..amazing how things line up..or don't…but even the "out" can be interesting

    cheers

  30. #29

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    Just a fun aside, learning this really helped my interval recognition:

  31. #30
    Oh, that reminds me, really quick.

    I am not bashing other methods, but...

    55bar,

    Bruce's method is NOT (I have to figure out why the bold and italic functions are messing up my posts...any ideas? I am not yelling, just stressing a point, btw ) an interval method.

    What does that mean for you, 55bar and others who are trying this method...

    I'll exemplify with the One Note Ear Training Series:

    You hear a I IV V I in Cmajor

    Then you hear a B natural

    ...your inclination in other ear training methods is to resolve that B to a C. In other ear training methods, this is how it is taught, it's a 7-8 resolution that is very important to most music. So I am not knocking it...

    HOWEVER, in Bruce's method, you should NEVER resolve notes (not yelling, I hate technology. Stressing points that should be in bold or italicized).

    ...So, in Bruce's method, you hear the B natural immediately as a major 7th in the key and NOTHING else. The same goes for the F# (b5 in the key) and the C#/Db (b2 in the key). DO NOT RESOLVE these notes. They have to be memorized on your own.

    Why? Well, the 7th might "resolve" down to the b7, or it might jump to the 4th in a melodic line. The b5 might move to the 7th instead of resting on the natural 5. And the b2 might be heard as part of an altered dominant line that doesn't immediately resolve to the Root. These are just some examples.

    The most difficult part of Bruce's series is putting old methods to the side (but not forgetting them) and focusing just on the sound. This becomes extremely apparent in the Two Note series.

    DO NOT RESOLVE, and DO NOT RELATE THE NOTES TO EACH OTHER (not yelling, shesh, can someone help me out with the font function ) Just hear the notes in a key center. That's not how Bruce's method works.

    Does Bruce's method make you just play modally? Nope, but modulations come into play in the Two Note Series. Don't rush, because you want to be able to have the ability to hold on to Key, aurally, for a while, before you train your ear to modulate. You will find that most jazz standards are more key centered than you'd thought in the past after studying Bruce's method. Real, legit, modulation happens more often in classical music. In jazz, I find that it is more about tonicization than modulation. Even a blues, even Joy Spring, and... this is where I will get the most disagreement... even Giant Steps (keep the original tempo in mind).

    Sorry for the ALL CAPS fiasco. Hope this was helpful for those of you that got started on Bruce's method.
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-06-2015 at 06:16 AM.

  32. #31

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    Hey man, I get it, it was "just a fun aside" I'm working VERY hard on all the above, I'll try not to de rail Bruce methods in future.

    Ps I'm totally blown away by all this so thanks

  33. #32
    No, I didn't think that at all. And there is nothing wrong with the interval method. But if you wanna learn the Bruce Arnold method, then the interval method will get in the way and trip you up. I am saying this from my personal challenges with Bruce's method. I had the habit to follow resolution tendencies and it cost me months of wasted practice because I wasn't being honest about how I was locating the pitches. This is especially important when you start singing the Contextual Ear Training exercises.

    I'm all glad you are getting something out of the journal I will continue to help as long as people want and as long as Bruce says this thread is kosher. And I will continue to post my own struggles and journal my own progress with the method as well, as long as it doesn't annoy anyone else on the forum. I already promised to keep all my ear training mutterings to this thread and this thread only
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-06-2015 at 08:39 PM.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    No, I didn't think that at all. And there is nothing wrong with the interval method. But if you wanna learn the Bruce Arnold method, then the interval method will get in the way and trip you up. I am saying this from my personal challenges with Bruce's method. I had the habit to follow resolution tendencies and it cost me months of wasted practice because I wasn't being honest about how I was locating the pitches. This is especially important when you start singing the Contextual Ear Training exercises.

    I'm all glad you are getting something out of the journal I will continue to help as long as people want and as long as Bruce says this thread is kosher. And I will continue to post my own struggles and journal my own progress with the method as well, as long as it doesn't annoy anyone else on the forum. I already promised to keep all my ear training mutterings to this thread and this thread only
    Hey,

    So here is where I am at, I've been doing the one note exercises every day (up to 4-5 times) I started on level one I've now progresses to level 2.

    Here's what I'm finding, some pitches I can just hear like a 6th against the key BUT what I'm hearing is it resolving up to the tonic again NOT just hearing a 6th.

    Again I'm also hearing a 4th as a plagal resolution not just a 4th in the key.

    How do I begin to hear pitches without my ear wanting to resolve a tension to a resolution?

  35. #34
    "Again I'm also hearing a 4th as a plagal resolution not just a 4th in the key.

    How do I begin to hear pitches without my ear wanting to resolve a tension to a resolution?"

    1. You are already aware that this is an issue. I didn't realize it was and wasted 4 months going about ear training with Bruce's material using resolution tendencies.

    2. Respond as quickly as possible. Stop the pathway of "this sounds like a plagal ca..." right in it's tracks. You hear the note, and the next millisecond you guess the note. At the snap of a finger, right after you hear the note. Without question.

    You are in the process of disabling pathways that work great for analyzing music for listening, but don't work well (and this is truth) for performing music in the moment.

    Hear it. Say it. That quick. No delay. Bam, like Emeril Lagasse. Not, let's add more olive oil, like Linda Bastianich. You dig?

    This is harder to do with singing, but you can train the pathway in your brain to access it.

    This is what sets Bruce apart from other teachers, he has devoted a TON of study into the way the brain processes and creates sound. He is extremely bright. He devotes much of his time to creating new material and responding back to emails.

    He could just make money off of his laurels, but for Bruce, the teaching is much more rewarding. I know him, I studied with him, I've done things that should have gotten him to slam the door in my face. He wants to help people along on their individual journeys as musicians. I consider him to be a Shaman of music in the same respect I consider Barry Harris to be a Shaman of music


  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    "Again I'm also hearing a 4th as a plagal resolution not just a 4th in the key.

    How do I begin to hear pitches without my ear wanting to resolve a tension to a resolution?"

    1. You are already aware that this is an issue. I didn't realize it was and wasted 4 months going about ear training with Bruce's material using resolution tendencies.

    2. Respond as quickly as possible. Stop the pathway of "this sounds like a plagal ca..." right in it's tracks. You hear the note, and the next millisecond you guess the note. At the snap of a finger, right after you hear the note. Without question.

    You are in the process of disabling pathways that work great for analyzing music for listening, but don't work well (and this is truth) for performing music in the moment.

    Hear it. Say it. That quick. No delay. Bam, like Emeril Lagasse. Not, let's add more olive oil, like Linda Bastianich. You dig?

    This is harder to do with singing, but you can train the pathway in your brain to access it.

    This is what sets Bruce apart from other teachers, he has devoted a TON of study into the way the brain processes and creates sound. He is extremely bright. He devotes much of his time to creating new material and responding back to emails.

    He could just make money off of his laurels, but for Bruce, the teaching is much more rewarding. I know him, I studied with him, I've done things that should have gotten him to slam the door in my face. He wants to help people along on their individual journeys as musicians. I consider him to be a Shaman of music in the same respect I consider Barry Harris to be a Shaman of music

    Thanks man, I suppose I just need to keep doing it until it gets quicker. Strangely when I just say it in instinct I'm getting things like b3 and b7 mixed up! What's all that about?

    Sometimes I get 10/10 correct other times pitches I usually ace evade me! One thing though it's a great way to meditate, as you really have to focus.

    I have already noticed a difference in the way I hear music, but it's just not in focus yet, the longer and harder I work the music gets clearer I'm hoping for HD in a few years!!

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    Thanks man, I suppose I just need to keep doing it until it gets quicker. Strangely when I just say it in instinct I'm getting things like b3 and b7 mixed up! What's all that about?

    Sometimes I get 10/10 correct other times pitches I usually ace evade me! One thing though it's a great way to meditate, as you really have to focus.

    I have already noticed a difference in the way I hear music, but it's just not in focus yet, the longer and harder I work the music gets clearer I'm hoping for HD in a few years!!
    I think I must have 'trained my ears' by transcribing solos, as I don't have much trouble recognising notes. Bear in mind this was in the days before computers and slowdown software. I remember working out a Wes Montgomery solo on a rather muddy live recording (Live at Jorgies) just using a reel-to-reel tape deck, just repeatedly stopping and starting the tape at the same spot until I got the note. After a few weeks of doing this, your ears can recognise anything!

    Last night I was working out the changes to a Wayne Shorter tune 'Lost' (from the LP 'The Soothsayer'). This has some quite weird changes, but I got them eventually. I largely relied on getting the roots from the bass, then relying on my ears telling me what sounded right for the rest of the harmony.

    So as you say, I think it's a case of doing this stuff until your ears 'get it'.

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I think I must have 'trained my ears' by transcribing solos, as I don't have much trouble recognising notes. Bear in mind this was in the days before computers and slowdown software. I remember working out a Wes Montgomery solo on a rather muddy live recording (Live at Jorgies) just using a reel-to-reel tape deck, just repeatedly stopping and starting the tape at the same spot until I got the note. After a few weeks of doing this, your ears can recognise anything!

    Last night I was working out the changes to a Wayne Shorter tune 'Lost' (from the LP 'The Soothsayer'). This has some quite weird changes, but I got them eventually. I largely relied on getting the roots from the bass, then relying on my ears telling me what sounded right for the rest of the harmony.

    So as you say, I think it's a case of doing this stuff until your ears 'get it'.
    The mistake I think I made was using a guitar to transcribe solos, I've literally done hundreds but my ears minus the guitar are weak!

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    The mistake I think I made was using a guitar to transcribe solos, I've literally done hundreds but my ears minus the guitar are weak!
    Well I always did it with the guitar in hand, in order to check the note, but eventually I found that my ears were getting it right straight away most of the time, so I guess I relied on the guitar less and less. In fact I didn't actually write that Wes solo down, it was too long, I memorised it.

    Maybe another factor is that I started classical guitar lessons when I was 12, so I had quite early exposure to fairly complex Bach pieces etc. Then as a teenager I spent a few years learning Jimi Hendrix solos off records purely by ear. By the time I got into jazz in my early 20s, I guess my ear training had already developed some way without me realising it.

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    But if you wanna learn the Bruce Arnold method, then the interval method will get in the way and trip you up.
    i mentioned this in another thread, and i don't mean any disrespect

    but this is definitely NOT the Bruce Arnold Method. Arnold got all this stuff from Charlie Banacos (along with all his approach note stuff).

    Bruce is a good guy, and he obviously put a lot of work into his books. but he even says in the intro to some of his ear training books that he got it from Banacos. it's not "his" method.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    The mistake I think I made was using a guitar to transcribe solos, I've literally done hundreds but my ears minus the guitar are weak!
    I don't think it's a mistake per se - just a different exercise, you probably learned a ton about the guitar.

    But I realised a few years ago after learning (and forgetting!) stuff on the guitar that I didn't have a very good memory for phrases away from the instrument. So I ended up transcribing things incorrectly.

    Elsewhere on the forums there is a discussion about what the best way of practising is. Some work on exercises, while others work on music. I kind of see-saw between the two, but right now I'm getting back into the music side of it.

    I do think that working on music (learning a song or solo) can make it easier to 'cheat' - whatever it takes to get to the goal. An exercise on the other hand (if well designed) forces you to confront a weakness directly and develop more ability in a certain area. That said, transcribing away from your instrument seems to me to be a very sound practice activity.

    If you want to train your ears you have to have a strong understanding of music away from the instrument. There are quite a few ways of doing this - one is to be a multi-instrumentalist!

  42. #41
    but this is definitely NOT the Bruce Arnold Method. Arnold got all this stuff from Charlie Banacos (along with all his approach note stuff).

    Yes, he is pretty clear about that. I call it the Bruce Method because that's who I learned it from. Bruce also studied with Bergonzi and a classical pianist as well. He is a good guy, or he wouldn't have allowed me to continue my studies... let's just say I was stupid in the past

    In terms of getting
    b3 and b7 mixed up... I had the same problem. Bruce said that it could be a multitude of problems. It could be a problem hearing the minor tonality. It could be a problem with your ear holding onto a key center (this is actually harder than it sounds). It could be that certain octaves trick your ear into hearing a different sound.

    You just gotta stick with it and listen...over...and over... and over... again

    Keep your listening sessions no longer than 15 minutes, as mind/ear fatigue starts to set in and you won't retain anything. The way you practice is by increasing the number of times you practice, not by increasing the amount of time you practice the material. Does that make sense?

  43. #42

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    Sharing a simple contextual ear exercise:

    Pick an interval:

    Ex. ma3

    Play or sing it against a bass note progressing through chromatic cycle 4

    C F Bb Eb Ab Db F# B E A D G

    in all 12 different relationships to the fundamental bass note

    Starting with:

    C E > C

    G B > C

    D F# > C

    Eb G > C

    Bb D > C

    E G# > C

    Ab C > C

    F A > C

    Gb Bb > C

    B D# > C

    Db F > C

    A C# > C

    Each relationship with the bass note is indicative of several possible larger harmonic structures.
    Ex. G B > C can be Cma7 or CmMa7 or G/C or Am9 or Fma9#11 or D13sus etc.
    Try to hear each relationship in several contexts.

    Do the same with all the other intervals (probably not on the same day).

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Sharing a simple contextual ear exercise:

    Pick an interval:

    Ex. ma3

    Play or sing it against a bass note progressing through chromatic cycle 4

    C F Bb Eb Ab Db F# B E A D G

    in all 12 different relationships to the fundamental bass note

    Starting with:

    C E > C

    G B > C

    D F# > C

    Eb G > C

    Bb D > C

    E G# > C

    Ab C > C

    F A > C

    Gb Bb > C

    B D# > C

    Db F > C

    A C# > C

    Each relationship with the bass note is indicative of several possible larger harmonic structures.
    Ex. G B > C can be Cma7 or CmMa7 or G/C or Am9 or Fma9#11 or D13sus etc.
    Try to hear each relationship in several contexts.

    Do the same with all the other intervals (probably not on the same day).
    Reminded me of this..... Incredible



    Go to 2:50 onwards to hear I'm singing in harmony over giant steps
    Last edited by 55bar; 10-08-2015 at 12:37 PM.

  45. #44

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    Insightful comment; "The only reason why you can sing the blues and not Giant Steps is because you've done it a lot".
    Raul Midon is an incredible musician.

  46. #45
    Yupe, but the key with that exercise is not to modulate. You gotta hear it all in C, and that, for people used to interval methods, is hard to hear.

    C E > C is easy enough

    how about F# A# > C

    That's Say (b5) Tay (b5) in Cmajor

    or E G# > C

    that's Me (3) Si (#5)

    You gotta maintain that C pedal. Right now I am widening the space between pedal point hits. I will set a pedal drone every 4 or 8 measures to test if I can really hold on to the key center with all of the outside notes orbiting the pedal point and key center.

    I think many people misunderstood what I meant by playing key centers, and it really irked me. But that's why I keep it to the journal here.

    One more note, about other methods. The goal for performance ear training is to find a method where you can hear melody, harmony, and rhythm all in your head and duplicate it instantaneously on your instrument. If you can't get to this point with the method you are studying, find something else to get you there.

    Interval training, while great, trains you to analyze music in micro pieces instead performing music as a whole entity. Training your ear by singing along to solos is great, and I do this all the time. However, big however, the method looses it's power if you can't locate those pitches immediately on a piano or guitar.

    What I am discussing in this journal, for clarifying purposes, is not a method used to transcribe music at one's own pace. My ruminations here are about using ear training on the band stand, hence me posting this journal to the "bandstand" part of the forum.

    Thus, the ear training method must stress the immediacy of the response and the immediacy of the aural information. You have to hear it and play it immediately, even for this Bruce Arnold/ Charlie Banacos and company stuff (Bruce takes Charlie's stuff and continues to go further with it). Music is immediate on the band stand, especially when playing with a band. There is no time to go "I think I hear a major 3" because that moment is gone. Does all that make sense?

  47. #46
    I've actually tried singing Giant Steps to internalize the sound of the song. This is how I learn tunes now. It is totally separate from the instrument AND it give you the most freedom on your instrument.

    However... I disagree with Raul's explanation as it is off with his performance

    Stick with me here...

    I have hunch, because Raul is ridonkulous and can see sound that he is trying to relate what he is doing to "what we are supposed to think with theory"

    Still with me here? I am not discrediting Raul, as I have heard him on various recordings. He is a BEAST of a musician, and I don't take the M word lightly.

    However, his explanation of Giant Steps in 3 keys is the typical theory explanation. Yes it is written that way...


    ...But, it doesn't sound like that...


    Many of you might be hitting the "Post Quick Reply" button right now. Wait a bit longer


    Giant Steps is in one key, and one key only... B major.


    Blasphemy, this guy doesn't know what he is talking about! Tear down the thread, you say. Stop the presses, you say.


    ...Let me finish


    Look at the tempo Giant Steps is played at, usually. 200bpm is slow for this song. People play it around 280 to 300 bpm (I can't play it that quick, makes my heart skip a beat just thinking of that tempo)

    ...hmmm... So, here's the point where I bust down another myth in most jazz

    ...Modulations don't exist in most jazz

    What?

    If we use the well developed ear to define modulations, they will locate an entirely new key shift that is thoroughly stated with repetition of harmonic and melodic structures (even in modal forms). This happens in... classical music. Why? Because classical pieces are longer than the standard jazz form. They have the space to modulate.

    I propose that jazz and standards work on a home key by tonicization. The references to new key centers are brief. In Giant Steps the references are extremely brief. Even in Have You Met Miss Jones, I argue those "modulations" are tonicizations. Even "So What".

    What does that mean?

    For some of us that will mean never listening to my ruminations on the thread again I joke, but if that's the case, that's fine. This is my take.

    For me, it means practicing Giant Steps in the Key of B with B being my drone or pedal point for reference. Should I go further, or is this idea to radical? Not belittling here, but my ideas might be too much in conflict with what many of us learned in music school. So I understand if people will be PO'ed by the concept I got from Bruce Arnold.

    But why? Who am I to tear down this notion that jazz is complex because of modulations. Who did I play with? Where are my credentials? Where is my album? How dare I?

    Simple. I am a reckless human being...

    No, that's not it.

    I like over complicating things...

    No, that's not it either.

    I can't play chord changes?

    Nope. I sell myself short a lot, but I can play changes. That's not it either.

    THEN WHY, DAG NAMMIT, YOUR POST IS ALREADY TOO LONG, JUST SAY IT!

    Okay, okay. This method of rethinking of Jazz in home keys where tonicizations orbit around the home key help you solo...

    ?

    They help you solo by adding a melodic cohesion to everything you play. You are playing a tune, not a random set of changes, right? You can think in larger chunks and more compositionally this way as well. You can develop your solo instead of playing separate lines. You can... tell a story (there it is again )

    Don't knock it until you try it
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-08-2015 at 06:26 PM.

  48. #47

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    But the fun part of STEPS is following the changes!

    It's a very catchy melody though. I always giggle when people who can't play it say it sounds "like an exercise."

    Yeah, an exercise you can whistle all day!

  49. #48
    I will do another "pod cast" on singing through Giant Steps. Did you guys enjoy my last pod cast on "rhythmic cadence & phraseology"? They aren't terribly hard to record, but I have to make sure no one is home to do them. If you all like them, I will continue.

    I feel like many of you will be pissed with my post on Giant Steps, so recording the pod cast thingy would give some credibility and application to the concept.


    Yes?

    No?

  50. #49

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    Piss people off, it's good for them.

  51. #50
    Well, if we ever start a rhythm thread (WHY THE HECK NOT!) My first post would be on analyzing Silento's "Watch Me" from a rhythmic perspective to glean the postives from contemporary hip hop pop. Then I would dissect the beats that my students make on their desks with their pens and fists. That would piss people off. But, see, you's and me would be the only people that know bout that cause we's learn up the children good

    But, I would do the analysis with utmost care. Cause there actually is valuable material in that stuff. That would piss people off more....

    Oh, don't you dare bring hip hop into my jazz. Guess what, hip hop is the evolution of jazz. Live with it. I've finally come around to that point myself (wasn't easy). All this exclusive bs actually hurts jazz. I think you can guess what I think of Wynton as a person. Regardless, I love his music!

    There's two types of music

    GOOD

    and

    BAD

    fuck labels

    Would that work, Jeff? If I ever go back to Chi-town, let's meet at Lou Mitchells

    Seriously, eggs like pillows...mmmmmm

    I went there just in time for the Taste festival. So much fun. Dare I say, it may be a cooler city than NYC... The people there are certainly nicer
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-08-2015 at 09:30 PM.