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The B over the Dbmaj isn't that exotic... I love me a b7th over a I major--I snuck it in on my post of Lullaby of Birdland last month.
The B over the C7 was a little odd, because of what follows. C7b9 to Abmin7/ Db7... The Db7 seems to fit better(V of IV, or as I hear it--Idom7), throwing in it's ii right after the C7b9 is a little cumbersome.
Maybe all the charts are wrong?
Like I said before, I am going over this tune with my mentor. He's very familiar with playing this tune--so I'll see how he goes about playing the harmony.
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07-23-2019 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Irez87
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Graham mentioned using Stablemates as a vehicle for some interesting dominant language.
Well, my mentor told me to write 10 tritone lines over the bridge to Rhythm changes and...
Has anyone ever tried mixing colors/ tensions in one line?
I mean, using an altered sound and than landing on the natural 9th of the chord?
Or playing a line that fits in the key, only to land on the #9?
It's an interesting concept, and when it's done right--I think I found out to create lines like Monk. The mixture really stabs at the ear in a beautiful way.
I'll try to take a picture of the lines I wrote down. Putting it all in Sibelius and then taking a screen shot is very tidious (Sibelius, not screen shots)
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Hopefully it copied... Anyway, you take these ideas chromatically down the 4ths cycle. They start on Ab7 (the tri-tone of D7)
eh... I'll try to post it tonight when my wife gets home. She has a Smart Phone, I have Flipper...
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RC Bridge Alt Ideas.pdf
there... I think you can make out my scribble...
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slightly off topic..but i know you been havin' thoughts about your guitar/pickup set-up..but in stablemates clip above, i like your tone...real vintagey mids clean but sharp tone...50's vibe.. raney, pisano,bean,budimir...like that
work with it before abandoning...
cheers
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YAY
Yeah, I'm gonna continue to work with it.
That means a lot, Neatomic! I think I'm finally free from the shackles of Pat Metheny comparisons!
I love raney, pisano, and billy bean. I gotta check out budimir--didn't he play duo with bean?
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budimir replaced john pisano, who replaced jim hall...in the chico hamilton quintet...he was playing along side eric dolphy in that band...
he was friends with bean and pisano and they issued some lo fi tapes they made
he also replaced bean in bud shanks band...to good effect on this early surf film soundtrack
barefoot adventure
cheers
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So I spent all of an hour on the phone with Apple Sauce because that Barry Harris Plays Tadd Dameron album I got two days ago wouldn't "authenticate" with my computer!
It was worth it. That album is a masterclass on how to play bebop. Charlie Parker might be the grand daddy--but Barry Harris plays bop in such a clear and succinct manner that you almost learn the language through osmosis.
I know, I know Barry Harris has his method. I have his first spiral book--and it's really interesting stuff. And then there's TILFBH on Youtube, I told him we had a study group dedicated to his channel
All that said, when Barry plays bop... I dunno, it just makes sense to me in a way that Parker doesn't (I think it's the sound quality of Parker's recordings that distances me--his Strings album comes through quite clear).
So, I'm listening to Barry play Lady Bird. I've ALWAYS had trouble making that tune sound musical when I improvise. So I listened to him solo a couple of times, got on the piano, and coped some of his melodic vocabulary and development. It clicked--the tune is beginning to reveal itself to me in a way that I could never glean before.
After I worked out some vocabulary on the piano (Mr. Three and a Half Fingers... I sometimes use my ring finger) I picked up the guitar and it made sense.
I've mentioned this time and time again--transcription is a HUGE part of ear training. For some people, it's 100%--and that's totally cool. For me, it's 50% transcription and 50% formal--practicing singing and hearing Charlie Banacos's material.
The point of this entry is more broad than "how to ear train". I was just struck by how hearing Barry Harris play over Lady Bird in one day taught me more than the 10 years that I've spend I've spent trying to figure out how to be musical over it. The theory and methods all have their place, but nothing teaches more about how to play this music more than LISTENING to this music.
Barry's a master--he might be set in his ways--but I think we can learn more from Barry by just listening to how he plays bebop than if we try to learn all of his methodology verbatim. I'm not knocking his methods, I'm just saying that there might be more to learn from his recordings than his teaching. Every note he plays on that album, JEEBUS. I have some of his other records, but WOW! His take on Our Delight is also quite scrumptious.Last edited by Irez87; 07-25-2019 at 01:33 AM.
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Originally Posted by Irez87
I think you can be overly purist in your thinking. Do whatever helps you. Life is short.
Get Take Twelve (Lee Morgan), More Power (Dexter) and constellation (Stitt). Also west coast blues (Harold Land) has him with Wes on guitar.
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That's just it, Chris'77--transcribing and ear training has helped me more than theory ever did alone.
I'm a purist when it comes to one thing and one thing alone--my ear has to guide everything I do on the guitar. Theory is in the mix, methods, all that. But my ear has to be in the driver's seat. I've wasted too much time trying to separate the ear from the mind. In actuality, my ear guides my mind.
Life is short, so you gotta do what works for you--even if it ain't what they taught ya in school. For me, that means continuing to develop my ears so that they can be the final judge of what sounds "hip" and what sounds like "sh....ip".
You know that I'm all about the ear, right, '77?
I'm gonna go broke with all the great album recommendations! I have Lonesome Lover and his Solo Piano album, as well the Tadd one.
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Originally Posted by Irez87
I'm a purist when it comes to one thing and one thing alone--my ear has to guide everything I do on the guitar. Theory is in the mix, methods, all that. But my ear has to be in the driver's seat. I've wasted too much time trying to separate the ear from the mind. In actuality, my ear guides my mind.
If on the other hand someone's playing seems a bit weak, rhythmically poor, lacking in tone etc, it's because they don't hear what they are playing.
This doesn’t mean they can sit there and name the notes in 6-pitch voicings.... but it does mean their aural imagination is active during playing.
Knowing this is the most important thing a music student can learn.
Life is short, so you gotta do what works for you--even if it ain't what they taught ya in school. For me, that means continuing to develop my ears so that they can be the final judge of what sounds "hip" and what sounds like "sh....ip".
You know that I'm all about the ear, right, '77?
I feel (and I might be wrong here) that you perceive ear training as a sort of linear process where individual pitches an collections of pitches are categorised by a trained ear. You've gone further with the Bruce Arnold/Banacos approach than I have, so I'm loathe to talk about it too much let alone critique it (what I have done so far of that has improved my note recognition and has had some non-linear positive effects on my general aural perception)
If you want my feedback to you as a player based on that Stablemates recording I agree with graham. The obvious reason you aren't using the type of descriptive vocabulary you find typically employed over changes heavy tunes like that, that might be possessed by professional sounding players who might lack your note recognition skills, musical interests and depth of knowledge.
I think you have specifically avoided this, judging from your posts here - is that right? You see it as superficial. You want to improvise in real time purely by ear, note by note.
I think you need to cheat more, hustle your way on to the bandstand through superficial expertise. Seriously. Run it in parallel to your deep project. Learn some licks.
(Is it necessary to become a notey, licky player in order to advance to the next stage? Perhaps not- though it certainly seems that’s the general run of things.)
So, beyond the superficial regurgitating of licks and cliches, what Barry teaches that I found valuable is the understanding and hearing not of single pitches or chords or even collections of notes, but phrases, authentic jazz idioms in use by the common practice players of the bop and immediate post-bop era.
You can hear those things as little corporate entities within a musical line in real time - oh, it's a 3 phrase, oh it's a chord with surrounds, oh it's a descending dominant scale, or it's a pivot - very quickly. If you play the thing, you hear it better. I wouldn't quite say bop is an open book to me now, but quite a lot of it is.
(Playing runs in parallel to hearing. Most of us will be familiar with how much easier it is to hear chord grips we play, for instance. I like Hal Galper’s exercise for this.)
But I did come to BH through ‘transcription’. I would just say having work on it, transcription is a whole lot easier. In language terms, I understand the phrases a lot more. I think and hear in phrases, not notes.
But you know this is just my opinion based on my experiences, and I suspect I won’t do much to influence you one iota haha. But I also believe that enlightenment comes from a path of moderation, not asceticism.Last edited by christianm77; 07-25-2019 at 10:31 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77;968394
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My initial post was all about these "transcription" sessions. Putting on an album, and listening to how the masters played it. Not dissecting it. Not transposing it. Just getting the melodic vocabulary of that particular phrase in that solo under my fingers. Then I use my ear to make sense of it. I've tried the whole "learn licks in all 12 keys". It didn't work for me. It became an exercise in dissection instead of an exercise in learning through immersion.
The next time I get together with my mentor, we're gonna craft a solo together--premeditated. Not so I can play the solo note for note at my next jam session. More so, so I can hear what I sound like when I play with more melodic, harmonic, and RHYTHMIC (our favorite) authority. Stablemates is a hard tune, so figuring out some sort of melodic architecture is crucial to learning how to improvising over the tune.
That said, I view improvisation as purely communicative. If I go on the bandstand with something completely premeditated and close my ears off to what is happening around me--what's the point of playing with others. The interaction between me and the other musicians on stage is more exciting to me than playing "all the right licks". Vocabulary is important, as is learning structure. I teach students how to write informatively and argumentatively in my day job, after all. But I never want to teach at the expense of robbing someone of their voice--I want to teach all the structures that, in essence, elevate that voice so that everyone else can hear it.
Just to clear up any doubt, I never said that there was a dichotomy. I think the right term is hierarchy--order of importance. I feel like I am constantly repeating myself here. I never said "throw out the theory". I said "your ear should inform everything you do". Your ear helps you hear theory (I've heard people say that theory guides the ear, I disagree). Your ear helps you develop technique--you need to hear what sounds "good" to you.Your ear helps guide transcription (theory is in the background, not the foreground).
I just worry when I post that the majority of those that take the time to respond (and I appreciate the response) to me, fail to thoroughly read everything that I initially typed. I'm not saying "I am G-D, read my posts as scripture, I am all knowing" or something. But the misinterpretation leads to a bandwagon effect.
Chris'77, I enjoy our conversations, your Scrapbook Youtube videos are on point, and you understand fundamental concepts in music that most ignore. And you give great advice--I'm excited to hear how you translate this all to the classroom! But, I feel like we get into situations where we "talk past each other". And when this happens, people latch on to the disagreement, and use it to prove that everything I post is erroneous...
The internet can be a pain in the arse...
I think the next post will be me at the pianimo again. Show don't tell--that's what teachers have taught since the dawn of pedagogy.
Off topic, but I keep watching PBS kids with my daughtee and Curious George comes on. I think, the guy that sings the theme song to the show sounds awfully familiar, he sounds like the Good Doctah. Turns out, it was! Dr. John!Last edited by Irez87; 07-25-2019 at 01:01 PM.
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Yeah.... hmmm. Ok. Here’s a thing I feel is becoming apparent from my gigging experiences.
True Improvisation is not so important of a thing for many of the more changey tunes. I am just not going to be improvising as much on Conception or Moments Notice or some crazy original as I do on a rhythm tune. I’m going to be coming up with a couple of good choruses and maybe swapping ideas in and out.
I’m not saying that’s the end of the process, but that’s what gets me through them. If I played Giant Steps every night I might improvise over it more, but I haven’t played that at full tempo on a gig since around 2011. And sure you could make Stablemates one of your tunes ....
I think that aspect of drilling stuff into motor memory is actually necessary to get you through some gigs. Problem is with the complexity of modern jazz composition is it can turn everything into classical music, as no one has time to completely master the repertoire so that we can truly improvise like we do on a blues, unless we get a nice long tour and maybe not even then. I mean I have enough trouble playing my own music.
But I think some of that is necessary. I find it happens whether I like it or not. And a lot of the players we venerate were refining one solo for performance every night rather than starting from nothing. Many Honourable exceptions of course.
But the real improvisers they favour tunes like Stablemates? Maybe not. Maybe vamps, blues, rhythm tunes, st Thomas, and so on.....
If you are the Goldings trio or Kurt it obviously works a bit differently because you have the dates.... But Kurt is playing his own tunes far and away better live the longer he plays them.
There’s a tension between professional aspects of music and the values of true art, of course. Even in jazz where we definitely aren’t it for the bread. You need to set out your shop.... Either rinse Stablemates (via fair means or foul) or don’t play it and play tunes better suited to your process and interest.Last edited by christianm77; 07-25-2019 at 02:09 PM.
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Re: Soloj'ing on Stablemates...
Originally Posted by Irez87
I'm saying this in a friendly manner because I think you are a great player and a great teacher on the interwebs. All I ask, is if you take the time to respond to my posts (it takes time to write these REALLY LONG posts for the both of us) that you read what I've typed out first.
If you reread my posts, you'll see that I'm actually in agreement with a lot of what you said. Not all of it, but a lot of it.
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Originally Posted by Irez87
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Guide tone lines, small melodic cells, chord tone, the overall sound of a harmonic progression (getting that nailed in my inner ear).
I'll make a video next week when my folks leave town (they are visiting to see my daughter) where I take it to the piano.
I just feel like I'm getting mischaracterized as a noodler who knows nothing about playing jazz, and that I have no vocabulary. There was definitely vocabulary in that solo and every solo I take--Stablemates is still a new tune to me and I have to woodshed it some more. I need to clear up my ideas, and clear up what I'm hearing in my head while I solo (especially without harmonic accompaniment). Stablemates is one of those hard tunes that I want to learn and own. I've posted other recordings of more "straight ahead standards" and gotten no traction, but I think they sound a lot better than Stablemates because I am more comfortable with those Tin Pan Alley Standard songs. That said, I want to challenge myself so I can grow.
Here's the misconception MOST people have about me. They think that all I talk about is "I want to hear what I play without any practice at all. I don't want to put in the work"
IE, I want to find short cuts.
That couldn't be farther from the truth. I learn tunes, I put in the work. I just go about it a little differently. I try to sing my way through the tune, sing the chord tones, sing the guide tones, sing a bass line (this is a new concept that I was told to try). Learn it all AWAY from the guitar. Then, when I have enough of the sound in my head, I take it to the guitar. It works for me---and it's A LOT of work, but I love every bit of it. My ideas might be foreign to a lot of people because they have a different relationship with ear training or because they've never come across these ideas in traditional jazz guitar instruction. Not right or wrong, just different. I think my perspective is quite interesting. I also really like what Jordan talks about and what you talk about round these parts, Chris'77.
I'm just sick of the trend of one person misunderstanding me (usually it's someone I respect, first it was Reg) and then everyone else cue'ing in on the misunderstanding and casting me out. Or it turns into a name calling fest... Troll this and troll that.
It just aggravates me that if a person thinks a little differently, they are singled out.
I don't think you do this Chris'77, I don't think that at all. But, this is the internet after all and all you need is one misunderstanding to start a mob.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Jimmy Raney speaks to this point as well in that lesson that David B posted--it's a GOOD listen. He talks of "offset" and "flat footed" phrases (starting on the down beat, starting on the off beat, creating 5 beat phrases--that was the most salient point from what I listened to)
I'm not narrow minded, if I wasn't up to learn all the time I wouldn't be a teacher. But there are certain tenants that will never leave the way I learn: and one is let the ear guide.
That doesn't mean I simply use my ear. That means the music originates from the ear and finds its way to the fret board. I am obsessed with ear training because I want as much of the music to come from me as possible, NOT the guitar. Of course, listening to what you play on the guitar and playing off that is great as well. But that's my mission, for the music to occur in my ear first and foremost (even if I can't label it immediately, I can immediately translate it to the guitar). That goes with practicing tunes as well. Get the sounds in your ear as much as possible BEFORE you touch the guitar.
I wasn't upset at you--far from it, Christian. I was upset at how different perspectives that go against the tradition are shunned on JGF. That's all.
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Originally Posted by Irez87
I'll make a video next week when my folks leave town (they are visiting to see my daughter) where I take it to the piano.
I just feel like I'm getting mischaracterized as a noodler who knows nothing about playing jazz, and that I have no vocabulary. There was definitely vocabulary in that solo and every solo I take--Stablemates is still a new tune to me and I have to woodshed it some more. I need to clear up my ideas, and clear up what I'm hearing in my head while I solo (especially without harmonic accompaniment). Stablemates is one of those hard tunes that I want to learn and own. I've posted other recordings of more "straight ahead standards" and gotten no traction, but I think they sound a lot better than Stablemates because I am more comfortable with those Tin Pan Alley Standard songs. That said, I want to challenge myself so I can grow.
Here's the misconception MOST people have about me. They think that all I talk about is "I want to hear what I play without any practice at all. I don't want to put in the work"
IE, I want to find short cuts.
I would say go a bit easier on yourself and have a bit of fun, play the instrument. Take some short cuts. You might be doing that of course....
That couldn't be farther from the truth. I learn tunes, I put in the work. I just go about it a little differently. I try to sing my way through the tune, sing the chord tones, sing the guide tones, sing a bass line (this is a new concept that I was told to try). Learn it all AWAY from the guitar. Then, when I have enough of the sound in my head, I take it to the guitar. It works for me---and it's A LOT of work, but I love every bit of it. My ideas might be foreign to a lot of people because they have a different relationship with ear training or because they've never come across these ideas in traditional jazz guitar instruction. Not right or wrong, just different. I think my perspective is quite interesting. I also really like what Jordan talks about and what you talk about round these parts, Chris'77.
My mind changes constantly on this. However, I find a frustrating disconnect if I spend too much time away from the guitar.
I think in part, although I know my scales and everything, I don’t hear an E in the key of C and play the 3rd degree in a C major scale position. It’s much faster than that - I see the note light up on the guitar and I play it. If I’ve been playing a lot - not even mindful practice, just noodling is fine - this link gets stronger and stronger.
It’s a bit like the people who talk about seeing a piano keyboard when they improvise on a Sax.
So you can use transcription to work your playing the instrument/ear link, as well as working on your connection to notation. Both are important, but it depends what you want to do.Last edited by christianm77; 07-26-2019 at 04:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
What you said in this quote is TOTALLY on point. I skyped with Barry Greene and he commented on my ear and said "I work on my ears all the time". My mentor works on his ears whenever he has a chance--especially when he learns new material or arrangements. I got Adam Levy to talk about "what he hears in his head while he plays and composes". He gave me an interesting answer:
Youtube is acting bonkers, but I think he answers my question 50 minutes (?) into the video.
Pete and Adam always talk about listening and using your ears on the "You'll HEAR It" podcast.
I'll post some piano stuff next week, folks are here until Sunday to see my baby daughter (hope you and yours are doing well)
I can't comp and play lines at the same time on the piano (I'm working on it). So what I do is, I pedal the key (if it's in Db minor, you pedal a Db) and play lines throughout the tune--superimposing the harmony over the key. When it works, it's REALLY helpful because you end up using your ear to connect all the lines (people call it melodic development, I think it's just a matter of using your ears effectively). That, and I'll play the chords of the tune with roots in the left hand OR with the KEY pedal in my left hand (Db for Db minor, going back to the previous example)
I was just worried because, like I said, I think you have a lot of great ideas to share here and on Youtube. I didn't want you (I respect your comments and hold your knowledge in high esteem) getting "on the bandwagon" as well -- a lot of people don't get what I do with my ear training. As a result, they attack it--here and in the real world.
Bruce Arnold told me he got a lot of naysayers when he studied with Charlie Banacos. Charlie told him to "keep your blinders on" and soldier on -- the results will speak for themselves. The way that I play now is a direct result of all of my ear training. Of course, everything else I've studied contributes to my playing as well--but ear training had the biggest impact.
My best work is done AWAY from the guitar. I mean, I can't play guitar while I drive (I know some forum-ites can, but I can't. I can play one handed drums with a drumstick while I drive...) I love the sound of the guitar. That said, I don't want the mechanics of the guitar to dictate what I play. Especially when I transcribe, I try to go to the piano before the guitar--because sometimes I get stuck by the architecture of the fretboard. If I get it on the piano first, I can get the notes and articulations faster on the guitar if I know it on the piano first. I know, it's weird...
I'm a nut, remember. But I'm a nut with interesting stuff to say... about shells and salt... what's up with people salting me all the time?
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Adam Levy is such a tasteful player. I enjoyed his answer to your question about what’s going on in his mind while improvising (starting around more like 53min). It’s great to get into that mode where it seems that the music is creating itself.
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I really should have reached out to Adam when I was in LA...
He seems like a guitarist with a beautiful soul.
Sid Jacobs is like that as well.
They both remind me of TL over here in WA.
If TL and Sid got together to play music--whoa, that would be all types of amazing.
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Here’s an interview with Adam Levy. I don’t think much of the interviewer’s style and it’s too long, but you get some insight.
Adam Levy Interview - Norah Jones, Tracy Chapman, Ani DiFranco - Everyone Loves Guitar #294 – Everyone Loves Guitar – Podcast – Podtail
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Part I: Stablemates
Part II might be tomorrow, depending on time.
Than it's Hasta La Vista, BABY!
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Part II: Stablemates
(listen with headphones)
Ibanez archtop with 0.010 Thomastik strings and...
Today, 05:27 AM in The Builder's Bench