The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87

    ...imagining that I'm Miles Davis, Art Farmer, or Oliver Nelson--they knew how to hold those money notes and place them just right in their improvisations. It takes courage to hold a note when everyone around you is weaving double time--I want to be able to do both.
    nah...learn how to make it sing in half time...that's where the beauty lies

    i just heard a guy repeat sun ra's dictum-space is the place


    cheers

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #202
    Nea, I was hoping you'd get that reference--Adam and Peter didn't!

    Also, they missed my shout out to Schaap--JAZZ LIVES!

  4. #203
    I don't want to derail the Julian Lage transcription too much because--c'mon! It's Julian freaking Lage. When is someone gonna transcribe his work with Chris Eldridge? Tasty stuff there as well, and on dreadnaughties.

    I wanted to post this live stream with Fareed Haque. Watch it, and listen to how many times he keeps repeating "you have to hear it" AND "your time and rhythm are everything" (I paraphrased). People kept asking the age old "what scales do you use", and he answered it like a BOSS "Use a blues scale and focus on the rhythm and swing" or "you don't need to spell out every chord change".



    Worth a listen, and please check out the episode of You'll Hear It a couple of posts prior--it's definitely a good listen (plus you get to hear my actual voice on that podcast--what a treat)

  5. #204
    Another interesting video by another musician I ALMOST had a lesson with (Dang Dong GPS and Brooklyn being CONFUSING to navigate):



    My take away from Mr. 80/20 might piss people off:

    Here's what I think, I used to obsess over scales and licks. What scale did Joe Pass use on Blues for Alice? What sub's does Pat Martino use on Love for Sale? I'm sure I'm not alone here.

    Nate (Mr. 80/20) echoes what Fareed Haque said in the live stream--if you watch in on Youtube, I'm the guy constantly talking about using your ears on the chat --anyway, the similarity is simplicity coupled with GROOVE. They talk about locking in with simple material.

    Here's where I get a little controversial. I'm gonna talk about Reg for a moment--stick with me. He is really into talking theory with us all, which is interesting and all. Anyone can talk theory, look at me--for instance. You know what REALLY impresses me about Reg?









    HE CAN GROOVE LIKE A ... I won't be crass, but he is ridiculously groovy with everything he plays. Whether it's his comping--he uses simple voicings, but holey smoley that feel! Or his solos--everything pops. That's what keeps me interested when I hear him play. Unfortunately, knowing all the theory won't get you there--I really wish it did. But working on your time, getting everything to pop and sit just right in the pulse, getting those notes to dance--that's hard. I mean, that's 90% of what people remember when they listen to us play--maybe 10% is tone (but that's usually from fellow guitar geeks like me )

    So, why do I spend so much time on ear training? Well, for one, working on your time is ear training. Two, I want to know exactly what notes to use to in each part of the pocket, or each part of the phrase--control. But it really boils down to, I want those notes to be second nature so I can concentrate on the REAL MEAT of playing with others--that dialogue. Part of the dialogue is hearing the harmony, but the majority of that dialogue is rhythmic. We need to bow down to the alter of time and space, you get my drift: rhythm, pulse, and groove.

    I just listened to Grant Green playing on Miss Ann's Tempo:



    The note choice is cool, but what's really exciting--how he grooooves. Those syncopated hits, the build up rhythmically in what he is doing, it makes you wanna get on up and DANCE.

    Learning all the hip subs is great, I'm still doing that (and trying to get it all to make sense in my ears)--but it doesn't mean jack if I can't lock it in with the band. That's melodic inventiveness, yes--but it's also this unyielding confidence with pulse, rhythm, and groove.

    If we all worked on our time--myself included--and really focused on getting everything to sit exactly where we want it to--I think we'd all experience a ridiculous amount of growth in our playing.

    Now, let's field the question: How do we work on our time? Thoughts, ideas? I have some, but I wanna hear from everyone as well. Remember, I want us all to build this thread together--as an ear training sanctuary (even if you don't subscribe to all the Charlie Banacos stuff I obsess about--I learned my lesson--I want to be inclusive of it all )

    So, any ideas on working on our time? Don't be late .

  6. #205
    Along these lines, listen to what Pete and Adam have to say on practicing time with a metronome:



    Listen to Adam at 7:00 into the video. How many times have I mentioned that type of metronome practice here on the forum? Well, now You'll Hear It!

  7. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87

    Here's where I get a little controversial. I'm gonna talk about Reg for a moment--stick with me. He is really into talking theory with us all, which is interesting and all. Anyone can talk theory, look at me--for instance. You know what REALLY impresses me about Reg?









    HE CAN GROOVE LIKE A ... I won't be crass, but he is ridiculously groovy with everything he plays. Whether it's his comping--he uses simple voicings, but holey smoley that feel! Or his solos--everything pops. That's what keeps me interested when I hear him play.
    Not controversial to me, I've been thinking the same thing for a long time. I would add, he has got his technique down to a high level that is part of what allows him to groove like well, like he does.

    From this thread way back when, Post #63, Fly Me To The Moon-Interactive practical/theory group. I transcribed about half of it, which illustrates what you said, transcription here: Box


  8. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Now, let's field the question: How do we work on our time? Thoughts, ideas? I have some, but I wanna hear from everyone as well.
    I think the biggest clue to the answer is to notice something important when reflecting on the nature of the different primary aspects of playing:

    - melody (choice of notes)
    - harmony (choice of chords)
    - rhythm (?)

    Melody and harmony may be played to varying degrees by theory or by ear, but in the execution of both of those made manifest through rhythm, that rhythm aspect even if read on the score and understood theoretically is really actually only played by ear.

    This is an important enlightenment especially for those who self describe themselves at the book and theory end of the spectrum - they may think they do not play by ear, but for the rhythmic aspect of playing, they actually do. Realizing this allows those who don't think they play by ear, but are curious, to examine the feeling of how they play rhythm, as it's already a "by ear" thing, and get some insight into what it means to extend that kind of feeling to melody and harmony.

    But the point is, of melody, harmony, and rhythm, it is rhythm that is first played by ear, most played by ear, and ultimately must be played by ear.

  9. #208

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    Yes I think Rhythm has to be by ear, and the most helpful ways of working on it I’ve found is to audiate it clearly.

    This can be done in a number of ways. Transcription of phrases is one.

    There is a theoretical side to rhythm too of course and a kinaesthetic side too (talk to drummers.) We can understand how to place offbeats for instance, and the learn to audiate that clearly. The egg shaker can be useful in cultivating a Brazilian swing in our playing, and so on.

    To me theory is always about feeding things back into the ear.

  10. #209
    Yey, I finally got pauln to comment on the Ear Training Journal.

    Welcome back to the thread, Chris '77.

    Yes, audition is key. When I studied with Bruce Arnold he kept telling me, DON'T COUNT--hear the rhythms. This is most frequently translated as "feel" the rhythms. I extend this principle to my metronome practice. The whole point is to memorize where the click is in relation to silence. A click of two measures of time at 200bpm has a different sound than a click of 4 measures at 200bpm. I made a post about this idea early on. The key is to hear notes and rhythm in the same principle--SOUND. All too often, we mathematicize rhythm. We count and figure out where the rhythms lie within the count. Hearing rhythm as sound posits that we memorize the SOUND of a rhythm.

    Chris'77, you could implement this by recording the sounds of these rhythms on a drum--and having students match that sound with one of your play cards.

    Many of us seem to go through a transition of banging out random rhythms on our thighs (or in the case of my middle schoolers--on their tables) to this point where we are taught to count out rhythm in a mathematical manner. How about keeping with stage one, and teaching rhythm through sonic imitation?
    Last edited by Irez87; 06-08-2019 at 08:02 PM.

  11. #210

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    There's one thing that Bruce Arnold, Fareed Hague and I have in common. We all learned about ear training from Charlie Banacos. I was terrible. I had a hard time naming the single note Charlie played after he played a chord cadence in C. There were other students that would make me cry. Charlie would play the most nasty sounding chord, C-7#5b9#11b13, yeah one of those chords and the student would not only name the chord, but the order of the notes in the voicing. I did find that most of those students were piano players, but it still made me want to cry. Now that I'm back studying I'm using Charlies lessons for it. In my book, to become a solid jazz musician, it's the most important tool. I'm not saying that Bruce or Fareed received all their ear training knowledge from Charlie and I'm sure they didn't. But I wouldn't be surprised if that's where their coming from in their own teaching.

  12. #211
    Definitely.

    We've had one member share his Charlie Banacos's story.

    Look back on this thread and you'll find it--my favorite part of the entire journal.

    Care to share your Banacos's story?

  13. #212

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    I was away from music for over a decade. Last year I looked into studying with Gary Dial who has taken over teaching the Charlie Banacos methods for Charlies family. I always kept my lesson book from Charlie in a safe place. Knowing that the lessons could be valuable to others the thought of rewriting them and offering them for money did enter my mind, but it didn't feel right, so I never did. When I was corresponding with Gary and the Banacos family I was given a form to sign stating that all of Charlies material was copyrighted and I could not use any of the information for financial gain by teaching/selling it to others. So knowing that. I wonder if Bruce and others received permission from Charlie to teach his material. I know Bruce and Charlie were close, so maybe by Bruce saying where he got his information is Okay with the Banacos family. Personally, I think we should teach Charlies methods as long as we acknowledge him and don't claim to be the creator of the lesson.

    Irez87


    I studied with Charlie from 1996-2001 with some breaks. The pressure that I didn't belong would get go me. I wasn't enrolled at one of the music schools in Boston, and only studied privately before I started with him. I couldn't believe that he would keep taking me back. I was teaching privately and gigging out but I wasn't in the same league as Bruce Arnold, Mike Stern, Vic Juris, Paco, Jeff Berlin, etc. There was a trumpet player who had his lesson before mine on Monday mornings. Charlie asked me if I could switch times with him because he was playing Sunday night at the Montreal Jazz Festival, while I was going to teach kids how to play Green Day later that day!!

    I live fairly close to him and would often see him from time to time over the years and right up to the summer before he passed, he would say, hey man, when am I going to see you for lessons again? He never, ever gave up on me. He passed away 3 months before my Father. I didn't know it at the time. When I found out I was crushed. I still drive by his home and think about him often. He was without doubt, one the most generous, caring, wonderful, unselfish, persons, without ego, that I have ever known.

  14. #213
    Strbender,

    Bruce definitely acknowledges Charlie Banacos. He used to have a family tree where he illustrated his journey and how he continued to teach others--Charlie is near the top of that tree.

    Funnily enough, the bass player that I play with weekly also studied with Charlie--with those cassette tape correspondences. I asked if he could dig up one of his tapes... We'll see

    I'd say that at least 75% of my practice time is devoted to the ear training methods that Charlie started. I like what Bruce did with the studies--he put them all out as Mp3's so you can truly study the materials anywhere. I love the concept of Contextual Ear Training. After studying it for 13+ years, I will NEVER go back to interval training.

    I studied with Bruce for 2 years when I lived in NYC, and I have kept in touch with him for over 13 years thereafter. The ear training is getting REALLY exciting. His most recent courses applied Contextual Ear Training to actual backing tracks (I think he made them with BIAB).

    In the past week, I have finally internalized the sound of a b2 against the home key of a jazz blues, rhythm changes, and some jazz standards. When you sing "rah" against a tune in a minor key--wow, it sounds really pretty. The 2nd (9th) and 4th (11th) sound really nice as well.

    Here is Bruce's newest edition to the Practice Perfect Series: The Jazz Standard Volumes:

    Practice Perfect Applied Jazz Standard Ear Training V1 - Muse EEKMuse EEK

    Someone recently asked JGF how to use movable "do" in a jazz context. I hope that person reads this thread--so I don't have to repeat what's already been said here.

  15. #214

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    Moveable do in jazz is easy - you just go ‘do do do do be do’

  16. #215
    do be do be do be do waaaaaaaaaaaaaah

  17. #216
    I haven't posted in a good while...

    Okay, so here's my solo on Stablemates from a recent jam, warts and all:



    Why am I posting this? Well, I started working on the tune using that Practice Perfect Series: The Jazz Standard Volume 1 course that I spoke of in post #330.

    There's much to improve:

    1. I want to play with more melodic and harmonic clarity--I know I flubbed a lot of the changes, and I over used some themes

    2. I want to play with more rhythmic clarity--confidence is everything, I'm working on mine

    3. I need to keep my focus (at one point I lost the groove)

    4. I need to work on soloing without accompaniment in a live setting--it's hard work--I want to hear the changes both in the bassline and in my head as clear as day... it's getting there, slowly!

    That said, I could never play like this before. I played Stablemates in February and I already hear an improvement. Progress is exciting, especially because it's EAR driven.

    I'm still working on this tune, but I like approaching it from the ear--listening to notes and singing over the changes. With each pass, I add more detail.

    I still cringe when I hear myself play, but I'm getting better at that too
    Last edited by Irez87; 07-20-2019 at 01:11 AM.

  18. #217
    ???

  19. #218

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    I like the sound you got, also the time feel, and the phrases were interesting and melodic.

    My only criticism would be that I could not hear the changes very well in the lines you played. As there was no piano then I think the soloist has to try and make the changes a bit more clear for the listener. I couldn’t easily relate it to Stablemates until I listened on headphones and heard the bass lines (also the bass is low in the mix, that doesn’t help!).

    But having said that, I think this is a pretty difficult tune, the changes are very ‘slippery’ in that Benny Golson manner. I’ve never really learned it properly, I would have to go away and shed it before trying to play a solo on it. In fact I had a go at it today after listening to your clip, and I did not like my own attempt much!

  20. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I like the sound you got, also the time feel, and the phrases were interesting and melodic.

    My only criticism would be that I could not hear the changes very well in the lines you played. As there was no piano then I think the soloist has to try and make the changes a bit more clear for the listener. I couldn’t easily relate it to Stablemates until I listened on headphones and heard the bass lines (also the bass is low in the mix, that doesn’t help!).

    But having said that, I think this is a pretty difficult tune, the changes are very ‘slippery’ in that Benny Golson manner. I’ve never really learned it properly, I would have to go away and shed it before trying to play a solo on it. In fact I had a go at it today after listening to your clip, and I did not like my own attempt much!
    Thanks for listening grahambop!

    My mentor said the same thing--he couldn't hear the changes in my lines very well. That's crucial feedback. That bass player is quite the player--he played with Jack McDuff back in the day! Unfortunately, he doesn't like lugging around his amp--and the space itself isn't conducive to live music...it's a yogurt shop!

    It's a heck of a tune, but it contains so much harmonic vocabulary that--once I get it under my fingers and into my ear some more--I'll be able to apply it to other standards.

  21. #220

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    Well now you’ve made me want to learn it properly - I’m going to shed it. I do more or less know the melody by ear (have listened to it many times), I didn’t really know the changes very well though.

    What I find with a tune like this is that once I have internalised the changes so I can really hear them in my head, it gets much easier to play a reasonable solo on it. I don’t really practise with backing tracks or anything, I just play lines and I sort of know by ear whether they sound ok or not.

    So for this tune I will do a lot of work first just playing the chords, constructing lines over the chord tones etc., until I can hear the ‘structure’. After that I can start to work on playing a decent solo (hopefully). Lots of dominant language in this tune, would be interesting to construct the Barry Harris scale outlines over it perhaps.

  22. #221
    My HUGE suggestion...

    This is gonna sound really weird, but...

    Try to keep the sound of Db major in your head for the whole tune, no matter where the progression goes

    ...it all ultimately resolves to Db

    Oh yeah, and look out for the top of the tune--it friggin starts on a chromatic ii-V completely out of the key.

    I still can't figure out how Benny Golson solos on his own tunes.

    I can hear the tune in what Blue Mitchell, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Dexter, Cannonball, and Wes do when they solo. When Golson solos, he seems like he is coming from a completely different direction...

  23. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    So for this tune I will do a lot of work first just playing the chords, constructing lines over the chord tones etc., until I can hear the ‘structure’. After that I can start to work on playing a decent solo (hopefully). Lots of dominant language in this tune, would be interesting to construct the Barry Harris scale outlines over it perhaps.
    PAGING MR. CHRIS'77 TO THE PERFORMANCE EAR TRAINING ROOM, STAT!

  24. #223

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    Yes Golson is an unusual player, he sort of slips and slides up and down like a bouncing ball. Certainly instantly recognisable!

    The version I know best is Dexter Gordon’s. I’ve also got the Miles and Trane one, haven’t heard it for years though, I’ll have to dig it out.

    I hear the Db centre, the beginning is just a 2-5 which is a half step above the ‘proper’ 2-5 into Db. I think Benny did a lot of that kind of thing. Actually so did Wes come to think of it.

  25. #224
    Blue Mitchell has this:



    They are missing that killer drum intro, but I love Mitchell's ability to play with Mile's melodicism and Freddie's ferocity.

    The most valuable concept all my ear training taught me is always be cognizant of the sound of the tune's key center--especially in a Benny Golson tune!

  26. #225

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    Interesting that the melody has a B over the Dbmaj in bar 3, and a B over the C7 in bar 4. In most of the versions the pianist tends to stay out of the way of that note, or in Miles’ version just lays out on the head!