The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #151

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    So it can be learned


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #152

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    This s a fascinating thread! I am just starting the journey, having purchased the One Note series. It's a great concept, and I suspect it will be so much more useful than the traditional interval approach. I have a long way to go, but I think I'm on to something valuable. Thanks for this thread.

  4. #153

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    Graham - "....a well-structured solo should still reveal what the underlying chords are, and an experienced listener has a good chance of working out what the tune is, just from that."

    Well, of course. Part of the reason that is true is that within the "harmonic confines" of the particular chord and succession of chords in a progression, one tends to stay within the bounds of traditional harmony. Save for some chromatic or "out" melodic excursions. But if you announce to an audience, "ok, folks, now I'm going to play Misty for you," and you concoct a "new" melody that is not referential to "look at me, I'm as happy as a kitten up a tree..."., the people will scratch their heads. I'm not suggesting that one has to play the melody note-for-note, but if there is no "you can say that you're leading me on...", it ain't Misty, but rather another tune. If you want to create a new tune with the same chord progression, go ahead.

    Come to think of it, that game actually makes more sense. Take the progression of My Foolish Heart and create a new melody - the contrafait, or whatever that term is for songs like Rhythm Changes.

    Btw, I was just googling to try and identify the term for these generic chord progressions, and stumble upon a spiral bound book that one can order from Barnes and Noble that not only looks well done but might appeal to a bunch of forum devotees of jazz and bebop. It's called The 21st Century Pro Method:Jazz Guitar -- Bebop and Beyond, Spiral-Bound Book & CD. I was able to find a site where you could look at an extensive preview and this book and a couple of companion books look very good, imo. Just passing it on, as the Holidays are coming and Santa may be out of ideas for this time around......

  5. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Graham - "....a well-structured solo should still reveal what the underlying chords are, and an experienced listener has a good chance of working out what the tune is, just from that."

    Well, of course. Part of the reason that is true is that within the "harmonic confines" of the particular chord and succession of chords in a progression, one tends to stay within the bounds of traditional harmony. Save for some chromatic or "out" melodic excursions. But if you announce to an audience, "ok, folks, now I'm going to play Misty for you," and you concoct a "new" melody that is not referential to "look at me, I'm as happy as a kitten up a tree..."., the people will scratch their heads. I'm not suggesting that one has to play the melody note-for-note, but if there is no "you can say that you're leading me on...", it ain't Misty, but rather another tune.
    Sorry Jay, you've lost me. No-one was suggesting that on the bandstand, you would not play the original melody first.

    The game was just to see if the 'solo' by itself was clear enough harmonically to identify the tune from. That's all. It's just a game. I think you're making too much of it. Suppose you walked into a club just after Kenny Burrell had finished playing the head of 'Just Friends' for example, so you didn't know what tune he was playing. Could you tell just by listening to his solo? That's all that was being considered, and folks were submitting their own examples.

    Constructing a new melody altogether (contrafact) was not under discussion.

  6. #155

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    Btw, Alex, although I might have helped to sidetrack (unintentionally) the thread with the discussion of the Game and single note recording in the context of your ear training discussion, the thread on a whole has really stimulated my playing recently.

    I should add that, probably to the point of "ad nauseam" from the pov of other posters, I am a great advocate of using notation software like my Sibelius to create jazz standard transcriptions. So for my "mystery song" which would retain the mystery for about four seconds or so, I just went into my Sibelius library, pulled up the tune, and worked off it. First I transposed down a minor third from my original transcription to help with the playability. I find that nearly every song has its "ideal" (from my pov) key(s) in terms of articulating the melody. Hopefully in many cases it turns out to be in a nice tenor singing range if I intend vocals as well. I usually do two staves - melody and "guitar" or "piano" (3). So after editing my own transcription, I just played along to the melody staff to which I had assigned a nice orchestral string voice. Usually I play along to the melody and accompaniment but in this case I mute the later, though the notation streams as both staves, of course. Allowing me to use the accompaniment notation as my guide. This really helps to reinforce not only the melody per se but playing around the melody and outlining the chords. Or to put it another way - no better method to get stuff down right in a fun way and efficiently to the max.

    In effect this is my approach to "ear training" at this stage - I get the benefit working daily on reading, notating, theory (because that is the 'skeleton' of the song's structure), comping and soloing, as well as always having an electronic band that never misses a beat and plays in time. At four in the morning. Plus I work entirely in the context of repertoire - real songs. I just think it is ultimately the most efficient way to learn in terms of self-instruction. I just wish I had this type of technological tool back when I was young.

    My mystery tune I played in the key of E. And my 'solo' ended up using every fret on my classical guitar in terms of the range on the high E string and actually beyond.... far out! But this thread and the 'chord outline' thread both helped stimulate my playing in a very positive way, even if it took a few weeks off my life... Incidentally, yesterday I recorded a full vocal and guitar version with my Korg. That may go up first on YT.
    Last edited by targuit; 11-07-2015 at 01:21 PM.

  7. #156
    I like this like corner of the Jazz Guitar Forum.

    If you'll join me--let's continue the journey.

    Let's make this thread open to ALL journeys in Ear Training--no matter how big or small. I will write less and listen more (the true tenant of ear training).

    The one pre-requisite is that we read the post fully and respond with constructive criticism.

    The worst crime in my actual classroom is to silence the ideas of other (I say it is worse than theft in the classroom--someone else handles that mess)

    So what say you all--my ear buddies?

    "And you O my soul where you stand,

    Surrounded, detached, in measureless oceans of space,

    Ceaselessly musing, venturing, throwing, seeking the spheres to connect them,

    Till the bridge you will need be form’d, till the ductile anchor hold,

    Till the gossamer thread you fling catch somewhere, O my soul."
    --WW

  8. #157
    Yes, I know, after years of absence--I'm back.

    Been a spectator all these years.

    Met some amazing musicians in the meanwhile

    And I have new perspectives that are still grounded

    in Charlie Banacos's studies (the one and only)

    But I want this journal to be responsive instead of totally pedantic.

    You, the people of JGF, decide what realms to explore.

    And I offer one (of hopefully many) perspectives.

    I'll let the journal sit until someone bites with more ideas

  9. #158
    Believe it or not, you can improvise harmonies that actually fit the soloist. Granted, you really have to sort out this type of playing before hand. Some soloists enjoy comping that is traditional and non-responsive (look at Charlie Parker's rhythm sections). Also, some soloists want full chords -- typically trumpet players on the up and on.

    There are those memorable occasions where you have a soloist who really knows his/her way around his/her ear. These soloists are amazing to play with because they are totally reactive to the bandstand. However, in a jam session, they can be hard to find.

    However, these soloists love to hear a band that is totally responsive (and that includes harmonies).

    Sonny Rollins? Look at Jim Hall's harmonies (not comping--he isn't thinking chord chord chord)

    Art Farmer? Look at Jim Hall's harmonies.

    Jaleel Shaw? Look at Lage Lund's harmonies

    Paul Desmond? Look at Jim Hall and Ed Bickert's harmonies (those damn Canadians know their harmony -- Lenny Breau, Lorne Lofsky, the list goes on)

    Gary Burton & Fred Hersh? Look at Julian Lage's harmonies (he goes in and out of traditional with really interesting smaller movements -- dyadic and triadic movement)

    And the father of it all? George Van Eps!

    I love whipping out that traditional Freddie Green style--and even that isn't static. I listen to the bass player and the soloist and play as minimal as possible. A tenor line supported by an extra note here and there (works when playing harmony with a pianist who can't give up the chords)

    Just a snippet of how "comping" fits into the ear training universe. I can go into that in the journal--but I'd rather open up the discussion with an essential question:

    How is your comping informed by your ear?

  10. #159

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    While I can generally play a line in single notes if I can hear it in my mind, I find it much harder to do the same with chords, i.e. get them to follow a melodic line. I have found Alan Kingstone’s Barry Harris book a great help with this. Still very much a work in progress for me though.

  11. #160
    Yay! Graham

    I agree--hearing harmonies is HARD!

    You have to hear multiple lines at once--or pieces of sound (minor 3rds or b5ths)

    That's kind of what makes comping so exciting--all the pieces

    I think that most of us comp with the lead line (the soprano up top)

    I want to get out of that habit and think more granular...

    BH has some great stuff out on chords as movements instead of chords as chords, right?

  12. #161

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    Yes the BH method is about moving the harmony around. I do think I hear the other voices in the chords more now, because of it. Something to do with the fact that you’re moving all 4 voices around together.

  13. #162
    Right now, I am all about triads and dyads thanks to GVE and my ear training studies. Definitely easier to move around than 4 notes--but they definitely don't sound as good alone (if you want to plop down a nice phat chord).

    Right at this moment--I am trying to get my truss rod just right. Finally took the plunge and it's frighteningly fun--more so frightening.

  14. #163
    Okay, I seemed to have ended that dialogue... my apologies (just worried about doing my own tech work)

    Barry Harris is a great teacher of harmony--he was even more stellar the two times I saw him in person.

    But, don't limit yourself with the drop 2's. If you go through the entire guitar workbook--Alan gives examples with dyads and triads.

    Methinks that those examples are even more interesting than the drop voicing because you really see how the theory works from the

    inside out.

    I think going simple and small is a good way (not the only way) to really improvise chordal movements and not just chord chord chord chord.

  15. #164

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    Yes those small chords are cool - I do use the 3-note 'Freddie green' ones a lot i.e. on strings 6,4,3.

    The other ones are on my 'to-do' list!

  16. #165

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    Good for you! Love Ron Escheté, and I really admire Sid Jacobs's Bill Evans arrangements for guitar - especially this one:

  17. #166

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    One thing I've learned through the years from other band musicians (non-guitarists) is that they mostly avoid playing with guitarists because they don't know how to find their space and stay in it. To many notes, too big chords, too loud. Stepping on everyone's toes. They are always thanking me for keeping it sparse and in the pocket. Not too busy, not too loud.

  18. #167
    Cosmic,

    You know--I get crap for playing really small "chords"--more so movements. They are still a work in progress, but people have guitarists stereotyped. If it ain't Drop 2 it ain't true.

    I disagree--listen to chamber music, Jim Hall, or Ed Bickert--they play em small and make 'em fall (as in, they keep moving to establish movement and forward motion)

    Destiny,

    Sid is one hell of a guy. He was the first guy I studied with out here--we sent emails when I was in NYC and I mustered up the courage to email him for lessons.

    He is ALL ABOUT Jimmy Wyble and counterpoint. There were days were I'd just sit and listen--he plays even better in person. He introduced me to some great guitar techs out in LA as well. Great guy.

    Ron--had one lesson, have to follow up. Talk about a walking history book. Ella, Billie, Joe, Diz... who didn't he play with. His eyes lit

    up when I played that Standard of the Month... that ballad... I love something...

    I mean, he got excited... that made my day! He still kicked my ass with what he played, but still--big ego boost.

    One thing I remember from Ron was "play those half diminished like half diminished--not as regular ii-V's"

    Lastly, I had a lesson with Howard Alden on the internet--most hilarious lesson evah!

    The DAMN SKYPE feed was screwed so I couldn't see him (only heard him) for the first half of the lesson. He was playing all these

    picking exercises and I couldn't see shit. Thank goodness we got it fixed.

    But, man oh man, everything has got to come back to the ear. If you can't hear it, than work on your ears so that you can. Makes

    everything I play ring true and confident instead of hesitant and wimpy (like it used to)

    If I make a mistake--I make it loud and own it

    Almost at the speed of jazz (nod to Reg)

  19. #168
    Got another lesson with Eschete incoming...

    I will post how it relates to ear training on Sunday--when I have the lesson.

    I do have to say, the teachers out here are (on average) more friendly than back East--must be the weather.

    I was talking with another forum member (graham) about harmony, so I thought I'd share a snippet of what I am working on to access improvised harmony.

    Charlie Banacos certainly came up with interesting material, and I am glad Bruce was alive to learn it and show it to me.

    Harmony is the hardest element of ear training to learn IMHO.

    Banacos saw the challenge and said--we can do that

    The idea is contextual ear training with more than one note.

    So, you find a reference note. In terms of Bruce's Mp3 program--it's a C.

    Then you hear a dyad. Let's just say you're studying 5ths...

    You hear A and E...

    Just like a puzzle piece, you hear that C against the A and E and you get...

    An A minor Triad. Jordan loves triads and so does IREZ (I have to change the spelling on that name).

    Next, you hear your reference "C"

    and you hear a Db and an Ab

    This is tricky, as it does not fall into a typical triad formation.

    You could hear the C as the major 7th.

    Where I am at right now is altered sounds.

    I hear the "C" as reference.

    and than I hear an E and and Bb

    Viola--C dominant 7

    Then I hear the "C" as reference

    and hear an Eb and a Gb

    Hard to hear--but put it together and you have a C Eb Gb -- Dim Sum-- diminished

    The theory is the easy part. That challenge is to hear the theory.

    I never said theory was pointless. I just said that studying all theory and no sound (and no ear training) is futile. Remember that sound trumps theory every day of the week on the bandstand. In the wood shed you need both, but in a performance arena--Ear training can save your life

  20. #169

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    Are you talking about Bruce Forman?

    I tried singing the notes you talked about during a morning walk (with wonderful coffee from the thermo mug my mom just gave me!) and I would like to know how I can use this stuff. I certainly didn't mind singing it, but only singing these pitches didn't do much to me - no rhythm, chord progression, dynamics, interplay or much else in it. Any other interesting harmonies to sing?

  21. #170
    Not Bruce Foreman, though I am trying to get his digits from Ron Eschete.

    Bruce Arnold:

    MUSE-EEK.COM

    Yaclaus... we spoke together? I am originally from NYC--maybe we met?

    There are exercises for phrasing that I could put back up.

    There are also harmony studies that Charlie Banacos (the originator) created.

    Let me know what you want to know, specifically, and I will show you studies that Bruce Arnold showed me (and where to find them on his site).

    Happy to help

  22. #171

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    So Irez asked me to come by and talk about my experiences with Charlie Banacos.

    For those who dislike rambling stories, feel free to skip the whole thing, as I don't reveal any secret jazz tips that will change your playing in 2 weeks.

    ---

    Way back when I was in high school, I was visiting NYC for the first time. I had been playing guitar for a good amount of time, and jazz for a couple years at that point, and I was very much a big fish in a little pond -- compared to my open-chord strumming classmates, I felt like I was a pretty damn good player.

    So while we were there, we set up to have a lesson with one of the guitar teachers at NYU. That guy happened to be Bruce Arnold. In hindsight, I don't know what I was expecting, but it was a completely ego-shattering experience. Whatever confidence I had in my abilities were torn apart in about 20 minutes. I realized the gap between where I was and where I wanted to be was much, much further than I ever imagined.

    But Bruce was very nice and encouraging, gave me some study recommendations, and I would correspond with him on and off over the years.

    Fast forward a few years later... I was at a particularly low point. I wasn't where I wanted to be, and worse, I didn't seen any realistic way to get where I wanted to be. But I did remember that Bruce told me that, even after he went through Berklee, he didn't really get his playing to where he wanted to be until he worked with two teachers: Jerry Bergonzi and Charlie Banacos.

    I reached out to Bergonzi to see if he would take me as a student, but he said he was too busy with his university commitments, and couldn't take any outside students. That left Banacos, a guy I had never heard of, and couldn't even find that much information on. As best I could tell, he didn't appear on any records, and the only real info about him online was a dingy little website. The only contact information was a PO Box. But I decided to take a chance. So I wrote him a (handwritten!) letter, that I'm sure sounded very pathetic and sad, asking if he would take me as a student.

    About a month later, I got a call from an unlisted number. A very enthusiastic New England voice started talking.

    "Hey, DAHSEIN! It's Chahlie Banahcos! Yeah, man, I got your letter! I'm gonna put you on my waiting list! Usually takes about two years!"

    I thanked him, but secretly, I was a little disappointed. Two years?!

    During that time, I gradually learned more about him from various sources. Never gigged, never recorded, but his students were a "who's who" list. Mike Stern still took lessons with him after 20 years. Wayne Krantz credited him with taking from "the worst player at Berklee" (according to him) to... well, Wayne Krantz. Seemingly every college instructor in the NY/New England area had studied with him. The anticipation was killing me, but I patiently waited.

    Finally, after two and a half years, I got the call: it was my turn. He gave me the address to his studio, which was in a small town about 45 minutes from Boston by train, and went over rates (which were extremely reasonable).

    On the day of the lesson, I pulled into town, and started following the walking directions. If I told you this place was a "quaint New England village," whatever stereotypical image you just conjured is almost certainly accurate. But I was too preoccupied to enjoy it, because I was having trouble finding the damn place. I was on the right street, but there was no building with that number. Did I write it down wrong? I was panicking, because I was sure I was going to be late and I was right there. But then I took a closer look, and realized that, nestled between two buildings, was a tiny little stairwell going up to an unmarked door. I walked up, knocked, and the door opened. And there he was.

    I went in, and got ready with a small amp he had, while Charlie settled at the piano. We started talking about people I knew in the scene, and Charlie was as animated and lively and thoroughly Bostonian as he was on the phone.

    "Oh yeah, you know so and so? Yeah, he's been taking lessons with me for... twenty years now. Wow, isn't that WEIHD?"

    I played a chord melody for him, a blues in B, then we played "All The Things You Are." After a while, he stopped and said, "I know exactly what you need." He walked me through some things I should work on, and sent me on my way. I let him know that I was moving from Boston soon, but that was no problem. We could continue to do correspondence lessons. I later heard from Vic Juris that he did correspondence lessons with Charlie for decades, and they never once met each other

    I had about 3-4 more correspondence lessons with him. I would sent in a cassette tape with what I worked on, and he would send one back with his lesson on the other side. But a couple months in, I had to take a break. My basement flooded, I injured my ankle pretty bad, and I was short on cash. But that was OK, I would come back in a couple months.

    Well, a couple months later, I get word: Charlie's sick and in the hospital. OK, I think... I'll reach out to him as soon as he gets out.

    It's not long before I get word that he's talking with his daughter Barbara and Gary Dial about continuing to teach his material, and that's when I realized how serious it was.

    Not too long after that, I heard that Charlie passed away. He wasn't especially old, and was in fine health before then. Just one of those cancer cases that came and went like a thief in the night.

    I was pretty devastated, and I still wonder to this day what might have been. What if I had reached out to him earlier? Maybe if I had written to him when I was still in high school...

    But at the same time, I'm extremely lucky. I was one of his last students, and a lot of people never got the opportunity to work with him. It was a good lesson: money comes and goes, but people don't stick around forever.

    ---

    Now, I'm sure you're all wondering what he had me work on. It's not really my place to post the material on here, especially since Barbara and Gary are still running it.

    And frankly, I'm not sure how helpful it'd be. He tailored his material to the students. He gave you the stuff YOU needed to work on.

    But there were certain things he had everyone work on, and I can talk about them in general terms.

    He had everyone work on ear training. My experience was very different than most people, because I came in with perfect pitch. But he still gave me stuff to work on, stuff that he said can give people with perfect pitch trouble. I certainly found it to be true. Bruce Arnold has done a terrific job of putting together his materials for relative pitch, so take a look at those if you're interested.

    The other thing he gave virtually everyone to work on (certainly every guitarist) were approach notes: be able to play 7th chord arpeggios, and approach every chord tone with a variety of chromatic and diatonic approaches.

    It was a huge amount of work, but really helped my playing out. He expected you to be thorough, but not insanely so. I once asked him if I should learn them in every possible position. He said, "Nah, man... you'll drive yourself nuts on that instrument!"

    Even 8 years later(!), I probably think about him a couple times a month. I still have his handwritten notes and cassette tapes.

  23. #172

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    Thank you, Dasein - going read that carefully.

  24. #173
    Dasein,

    BEST HOLIDAY GIFT EVAH!!!

    I felt like I was reading the best short story of my life... parrallels to Baldwin's "Sonny's Blues"

    I'm an English teacher by day.

    But really, thank you for sharing that experience.

    My goal is to be another one of "those students" if only for the benefit of my playing and others.

    Hearing how music works is the most excited aural act in the world (for me)

    Great to hear about the Jedi Master

    I could even hear Charlie's Bostonian lilt

  25. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87

    Yaclaus... we spoke together? I am originally from NYC--maybe we met?
    Never been outside of Europe, but maybe you met me in the spiritual world while you were asleep or hallucinating Would love to go to NYC though - for a short while(!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Let me know what you want to know, specifically, and I will show you studies that Bruce Arnold showed me (and where to find them on his site).

    Happy to help
    I think most people would appreciate any kind of knowledge sharing you may offer. I try (try that is!) to keep my practice limited to a few things and keep the ears on the music. I like sight singing 4-part choir songs for ear training. Need to learn how to record it all. Will download reaper again soon.

    Edit: Gave it my first shot, shoot me Dropbox - solenop.mp3
    Last edited by yaclaus; 12-13-2017 at 03:58 AM.

  26. #175
    Once I get back from NZ, I'll ask Bruce about hearing chords in context. I have all the parts of the puzzle, but I need to see the complete picture to see how they all interconnect.

    There is a way to hear the exact chord, in the exact voicing, with all alterations WITHOUT perfect pitch and in time. I need a little more research as this is exactly the next step in my own progression with ear training.

    Daesin, any ideas? Charlie must have taught a system for chords. I have his modulation/ tonicization system down pat. But that allows the reference note to blend into the rest of the chord--not to set the key of the tune (as we do in improvisation).