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  1. #301
    The Scale Analysis stuff is fun. I like how it emphasizes how elastic sound is. Play a C mixolydian. Now introduce a b3 and you have the F7 sound in scalar form. It allows for more linear playing, and treatment of melody instead of just grafting ideas from one "key center" into another.

    Greg Fishman talks about this phenomena as "snake over the rocks". The new harmonic "rocks" shift the aural playground-- you play through the changes and into the shifting tensions of the primary key. You aren't thinking key to key, you are thinking new tensions introduced into the primary key.

    Like, in a C blues, the F7 introduces a b3 tension into that C blues landscape. That b3 could be thought of as a rain cloud that is now introduced to the landscape. The C landscape is still there, but is colored, ever so slightly, by that b3 of the F7.

    This idea helps with line building as follows:



    Greg would finish the idea by going back to the primary key of the jazz standard.

    I hope these metaphors don't confuse. The simplest of concepts are often over explained...

    Right now I am working on Contextual Ear Training Two Note Edition -- I need to work on holding on to the key center as new sounds are introduced.

    Glad you are experiencing success with the Banacos material that Bruce put out. Practice it every day, a couple of sessions a day, and that will do the trick.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #302
    I have to dust off the cobwebs on this journal and add a new entry.

    Looking at my last journal entry, I've noticed that it's taken me almost a year to get the hang of Contextual Ear Training Two Note Edition.

    I think most of the trouble was due to residual effects of the interval training I studied in college (before I studied with Bruce Arnold).

    Currently, I'm noticing that I have issues singing "off" of a b5th, b6, or b2nd. I can access these pitches individually against a key center, but I don't know them well enough to sing them and retain the tonal area as I sing another pitch. For instance, I'll try to sing a b6th to a major 3rd in the key of Ab major and I'll stumble. I think I'm spending all my energy trying to sing the b6th that I'm losing the key center in my head. This work is hard.

    I've been listening to recordings of myself at playing at jams over the past couple of months. I've included one from January, I'm playing the head and first solo to "I Could Write a Book".

    What did I notice:

    Let's get the negatives out of the way...

    1. I'm still having volume problems with my guitar, so listen with head phones

    2. I flubbed the melody when I played down an octave

    3. There were ideas that I didn't commit to all the way in my solo

    Positives...

    1. I played a confident line into the first A section

    2. My lines connect to each other. There's one point at 1:17 to 1:22 where I do a delayed resolution thing with my line. I heard that I played before and expanded on it--I was listening to myself and the band at the same time.

    3. Rhythmic Confidence.

    4. I'm starting to hear substitutions instead of thinking about them.

    5. My amplified tone is a thousand times better than it used to be.

    The reason that I love ear training is because it gives me the confidence to communicate with other people in a musical way and it gets my eyes off the page and my ears to the floor (as pauln says).

    On another note, I have to emphasize that this type of ear training does NOT trump learning a tune. Rather, learning tunes and Charlie Banacos's method of ear training should work TOGETHER. I realized this during my last guitar lesson with one of the young lions from LA (do people still use the phrase "young lion" anymore?). I have to learn more tunes...

    Anyway, this is where I'm at these days.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  4. #303
    Yesterday I spoke about retaining a key center and hearing multiple pitches against a tonal area. Retaining a key center means hearing a progression (or a chord, or a note sequence) to setup a key and then keeping that sound in your head as you sing multiple pitches. Things get tricky when you start signing outside of the tonal area. For instance, singing a b2nd to a b7th. Why would you want to hear those notes? Here are some possibilities

    ii-V-i in C minor

    the b2 of C is Db

    Db could be a b5 of the G7alt or G7+

    the b7th of C is Bb

    Bb could the #9th of that same G7

    See how I am thinking horizantally (key center) and vertically (chord)?

    Keeping the key center in mind helps you shape and resolve your line because it can help you think more melodically. It also helps you really hear how the harmony functions within a key center.

    I've included another sample from a jam in January, Sophisticated Lady. My solo starts at 6:48. The way I shape a solo works best when I'm not looking at a page or thinking of chord changes, things get too cluttered in my mind. But when I can hear everything going on and relate it to my knowledge of ear training, then things start to cook and I have more fun.

    That doesn't mean throw away theory. I couldn't explain those pitches against Cminor without theory, right? My qualm is that we study theory separately from ear training. And we study ear training separate from tune learning. And, finally, we study ear training separately from linear improvisation. Combine everything with your ears. You need to understand it all in your mind AND in your ears. Fair enough?

    Here's the clip:
    Attached Files Attached Files

  5. #304

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    Tone sounds really great Irez. I especially love the clarinet playing in your recording. It's one of my favorite instruments.
    Guitarist/Violinist - Pittsburgh, PA
    YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/SixStringSolid
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  6. #305
    Clarinet is really hard to play, from what I heard. One of the harder reeds to play for sure

  7. #306
    I said on jzucker's thread that people attacked this ear training journal. I didn't mean that the people participating on this thread were attacking me. Sure we had our disagreements, but I think our discussions deepened this whole thread of performance ear training.

    I wanted to mention some new courses over at muse-eek.com called the Practice Perfect Applied Ear Training Series:

    Practice Perfect Applied Ear Training Series - Muse EEKMuse EEK

    The whole premise is providing backing tracks to practice Contextual Ear Training within. I've been trying to convince Bruce to do a jazz volume of this series, but I've had no luck thus far.

    Non the less, if you've already studied Contextual Ear Training, these courses are fun. There's reggae tracks, South Indian tracks, Country tracks, Rock tracks.

    I've found something very interesting in my own practice studies. In the past, when I learned a tune, I'd do the whole "chord tones in all positions" study. After doing all this ear training, I find that if I play the harmony (the chords, if you will) enough, then my lines jump out more and I hear the harmony.

    For instance, I've been playing Sophisticated Lady for two weeks--just the harmony and the melody. I haven't done arpeggios through the tune, or guide tone lines, or chord tones. But after two weeks of just comping and melody, my lines over the tune dramatically improved.

    Forget my Contextual Ear Training bent for a moment. Has anyone else had this experience?

  8. #307
    Okay, one more entry before I hit the hay... on an air mattress (thanks FlatRate Moving)

    Exciting news, folks. Bruce Arnold finally came out with a Practice Perfect Applied Ear Training for Jazz. In fact, he's going to be making a whole slew of volumes in the jazz genre.

    The first volume in the Jazz series is Major Blues:

    Practice Perfect Applied Jazz Ear Training V1 - Muse EEKMuse EEK

    Before anyone hollers "the blues is easy, anyone can play over it" (really?)

    Can you sing specific notes over the blues while retaining the original key center?

    Can you sing specific notes over a blues with a slew of substitutions and still retain the original key center?

    I'm talking tritone subs, back cycles, back door progressions, to the point where your ear goes "wha?!?"

    The course starts off with a simple jazz blues in C and has you sing pitches against the harmony in time.

    That could mean singing C when you are hearing the IV chord or singing Db when you hear the V chord. The challenge is relating everything back to C. The idea about introducing the b3 with the IV chord in post #301 helps communicate this idea (I hope).

    You are essentially creating all the harmonic movement by chromatically moving the notes in the HOME key around. Want a bIIdom7? Using degrees that would be b2 4 b6 7 (which would give you the 1 3 5 b7 of the bIIdom7)

    Why do all these conversions? Well, as we've discussed throughout the thread and the site, music doesn't happen in a vacuum. Chords don't exist statically within a progression. Harmony works to create movement or tension within a key. When you play a tritone line, you want to hear the target of you line at all times--not just the chord that creates the tritone.

    Another poster mentioned modern players. Let's take Joe Henderson. He was a master of playing these out and angular lines--but he always knew how to land them back in the key of the tune.

    The most challenging part of Contextual Ear Training is retaining your key center. That means hearing "key of C" in your head while you play a measure of F#min7 to a measure of B7. Or playing Just Friends, and hearing everything in F even though you start out on the IV (Bbmaj).

    Or hearing Giant Steps in B major all the way through.

    I think it's really interesting because sound starts explaining theory. The ii starts to sound like a ii, or the IIIdom7 starts to sound like a IIIdom7 because you are hearing how everything functions in the key. The best part is, when you are improvising--and you've trained you ear (by transcribing, or ear training--well, actually, I think you have do BOTH) you can access ideas a lot faster by hearing them in your head and--being able to identify what you're hearing--rather than remembering the theory (what scale) or the fingering pattern.

    Anyway, for those of you who've looked at Bruce's site and went through Charlie Banacos's digital material--give this new course a look.

  9. #308
    I wanted to emphasize, again, that Contextual Ear Training does not take the place of listening to and transcribing (you don't have to write it down all the time) as much music as possible. CET alone won't develop your vocabulary, and it won't help your feel/ groove. CET isn't a substitute for anything. Rather, CET helps you capture and understand what you hear on records, what you hear on the bandstand, and what you play yourself--the best way, for in the moment playing--aurally.

    CET does help you communicate all that music you hear in your head to the outside world. You end up speaking the jazz language more clearly because you are processing sound faster (in the moment)--thus you can engage in a true dialogue because you are not stuck thinking of the maths and missing all the moments of inspiration.

    As aforementioned in my previous post, I love CET because it gets theory off the paper and into your ear in a way that I'd never experienced before. I can't tell you how frustrating my early college years were--a ton of theory and I couldn't hear any of it unless I fumbled around piecing it together on guitar. Now, I hear and sing concepts in music theory--it just feels more natural to me because I'm in control of the sounds that craft the theory--not an instrument.

    Developing your CET takes a LOT of work--it's not a magic pill. However, it does make the musical journey--at least for me--so much more interesting and exciting.

  10. #309
    I posted this elsewhere, but I don't want to take part in that thread:

    You all spoke of micro time--to feel the triplet, or not to feel the triplet--and placement.

    I think more study should be placed on macro time--how the whole measure is felt, how the whole phrase is felt, how the form is felt. Being aware of space in the temporal sense. Feeling targets at different episodes of the pulse.

    Great players, regardless of race, were/are able to negotiate these larger "episodes" of space within the context of time. Bill Evans could push and pull the time because of this spatial awareness--awareness of the temporal architecture of the phrase, and the form.

    Charlie Parker could negotiate the push and pull because he was also aware of how these larger sections of time--the phraseology, so to speak--FELT. Not counting--feeling the space in his bones.

    Monk, Monk, oh Monk. All those anticipations and rhythmic surprises. I think they came from his ability to feel temporal space on such a high level that he could twist the contents of the space--those temporal spaces that made up his phraseology--all over the place. However, those "random" punctuations followed the internal structure of his phraseology.

    The more I study macro time, the more I acquaint myself with the pause, the silence. I think silence has a sound, just like notes have a sound. And silence dictates rhythm, maybe more so than sound. The phrase is when temporal space is bookended by a beginning punctuation and an end.

    I think micro time is also interesting, but more people talk about it.

    It'd be interesting to talk about how drummers negotiate space. How is Kenny Clarke's concept of temporal space--the big picture--macro time, different than Max Roach's? Move out even further. How does Tony Williams bend space--his temporal frame work--his macro time differently than Elvin Jones?

    Last note: when you study macro space, you start realizing the relationships of notes and rhythms in a phrase. Where is the cadence? How does the cadence end? Where are the "swung" eighth notes in the phrase, where are the "straight" eighth notes?

    Sometimes, I feel, like rhythm is studied in random. We learn where to place notes within a phrase. What about where to place rhythms other than the eighth note?

    It would be interesting if someone were to transcribe Clifford and Dizzy or Miles and Art Farmer. Instead of looking at the note choice or the rhythms, what would their silences look like? Where would they place silence in their phrasing? Where would they place silence in the form? You could see where they puncture the silence.

    I think a big difference between the greats and everyone else is the knowledge of how to strategically use space.

    You see the spaces get bigger as one progresses from bebop to hardbop to "cool" (though, I still consider Miles to be part of the hardbop tradition). The space between the notes becomes more important than the notes themselves.

    Isn't that a crazy idea?

    This all reminds me of Roland Barthes and the Camera Lucida. I wonder if Jeffy B. could chime in?

    Just meanderings. Who knows what good will come of it.
    Last edited by Irez87; 05-12-2019 at 12:19 PM.

  11. #310

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    So, I'm interested in getting an ear training course that will enable me to practice during my 40-minute commute to work. I started digging around and it quickly becomes obvious that the Bruce Arnold material is highly regarded here. But when I go to the website I am overwhelmed by the number of different books/courses. Some relevant background - I am not a beginner, have a bachelor's degree in music, and played (bass) professionally in my younger days. The mid-life foray into jazz guitar has me convinced I need to woodshed on the ear training to be a better improvisor. Any guidance forum members could provide as to which volume or course would be most appropriate for my needs would be appreciated. Thanks!

  12. #311
    hmmm....

    These materials are a good start:

    1. You put these Mp3's on random. They play a cadence in C, and then one note--you have to identify how that note functions in C.
    Ear training one note for musicians book with audioMuse EEK


    2. You put these Mp3's on random. An unknown cadence plays. You are given C as a reference note. You have to figure out the key (major and minor)

    Key Note Recognition Ear Training Exercise - Muse EEKMuse EEK

    3. You put these Mp3's on random. An unknown cadence plays in a random key. Then you are told to sing a note based on degree.

    https://muse-eek.com/contextual-ear-...ok-with-audio/

    4.You might want to practice this series in tandem, once you get the hang of the method:

    https://muse-eek.com/applied-jazz-ear-training/

    This one focuses on the jazz blues form--with lotsa sub's. The rhythm section plays and you are told to sing a series of notes. Don't start with this series--get used to the format of the ear training first. Cool stuff.

    Let me know if you are still having trouble and I'm PM you Bruce's email.

  13. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    I think more study should be placed on macro time--how the whole measure is felt, how the whole phrase is felt, how the form is felt. Being aware of space in the temporal sense. Feeling targets at different episodes of the pulse.
    (so here it is :-)

    I found it interesting because it rhymes to the story telling thing. The macro time is probably a central thing in human speech, so closely relates to story telling, and "making statements".

    Regarding micro vs macro: I think we should differentiate by tempo: in ballads macro time is more important (no place to swing, and also in most cases it is not appropriate), in medium and medium up: the swing (micro) is more important which give the feel and groove, the macro time maybe less important, and in very fast tempos: just keep it if you can :-)

  14. #313
    Thanks for visiting the journal of performance ear training.

    Check out the previous 6 pages, we've had some really thought provoking conversations around here.

  15. #314
    Bruce Arnold is at it again. He just released Volume 2 of the Practice Perfect Jazz Series: Minor Blues.

    He has a bunch of samples to give you a taste:

    Practice Perfect Applied Jazz Ear Training V2 - Muse EEKMuse EEK

    If you've gone through the One Note Series and the Contextual Ear Training (Singin), you should definitely check it out.

    PM me and I'll give you Bruce's email if you are unsure if you're ready for the course--it's better than buying it and not being able to understand it--like I did with his Hearing Bass Lines course (I wasn't ready for it)

  16. #315

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    Thanks for the advice Irez, will check these out. Mr. Arnold is prolific!

  17. #316
    Looky, looky--Adam and Peter took my topic on using space in our playing:



    I recorded two speak pipes--of course they took the one where I sounded like I was "in space"

  18. #317
    I hope y'all took a gander at my cameo in You'll Hear It, that episode still tickles my funny bone!

    Now on to serious business. Bruce Arnold just came out with Volume Three of his Practice Perfect applied ear training course. This iteration is quite interesting because he has you hear notes and label them against a slew of rhythm changes as well as singing specific notes. There aren't that many ear training courses that have you sing against actual chord progressions, let alone entire tunes. Why is all this important? Well, for one, this all develops and solidifies your ability to hold onto a key center for a long period of time. You start to hear how progressions, melodic fragments, subs--how they all function in a key center--even as the tune "modulates" (I am still a staunch believer that jazz standards do not modulate--they tonicize). Learning how to hold onto a key is difficult, so these courses lend you a helping hand.

    Hearing how a 2nd sounds and feels in the context of a tune, or a b6th--it's quite amazing. I liken it to imagining that I'm Miles Davis, Art Farmer, or Oliver Nelson--they knew how to hold those money notes and place them just right in their improvisations. It takes courage to hold a note when everyone around you is weaving double time--I want to be able to do both. I find this study really exciting. Best part is, it helps me connect with what I hear in myself and what I hear from the people that I play with in jam sessions.

    The theory helps. Remember, I never said to throw theory out the window. Rather, I said that theory is meaningless if you can't fully access it in your inner ear. I'm still on that journey to hear all the theory I know--but I'm glad that my ears are now guiding my study of music.

    Here is Volume 3 of Practice Perfect: Rhythm Changes

    https://muse-eek.com/rhythm-changes-ear-training/

  19. #318

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post

    ...imagining that I'm Miles Davis, Art Farmer, or Oliver Nelson--they knew how to hold those money notes and place them just right in their improvisations. It takes courage to hold a note when everyone around you is weaving double time--I want to be able to do both.
    nah...learn how to make it sing in half time...that's where the beauty lies

    i just heard a guy repeat sun ra's dictum-space is the place


    cheers

  20. #319
    Nea, I was hoping you'd get that reference--Adam and Peter didn't!

    Also, they missed my shout out to Schaap--JAZZ LIVES!

  21. #320
    I don't want to derail the Julian Lage transcription too much because--c'mon! It's Julian freaking Lage. When is someone gonna transcribe his work with Chris Eldridge? Tasty stuff there as well, and on dreadnaughties.

    I wanted to post this live stream with Fareed Haque. Watch it, and listen to how many times he keeps repeating "you have to hear it" AND "your time and rhythm are everything" (I paraphrased). People kept asking the age old "what scales do you use", and he answered it like a BOSS "Use a blues scale and focus on the rhythm and swing" or "you don't need to spell out every chord change".



    Worth a listen, and please check out the episode of You'll Hear It a couple of posts prior--it's definitely a good listen (plus you get to hear my actual voice on that podcast--what a treat)

  22. #321
    Another interesting video by another musician I ALMOST had a lesson with (Dang Dong GPS and Brooklyn being CONFUSING to navigate):



    My take away from Mr. 80/20 might piss people off:

    Here's what I think, I used to obsess over scales and licks. What scale did Joe Pass use on Blues for Alice? What sub's does Pat Martino use on Love for Sale? I'm sure I'm not alone here.

    Nate (Mr. 80/20) echoes what Fareed Haque said in the live stream--if you watch in on Youtube, I'm the guy constantly talking about using your ears on the chat --anyway, the similarity is simplicity coupled with GROOVE. They talk about locking in with simple material.

    Here's where I get a little controversial. I'm gonna talk about Reg for a moment--stick with me. He is really into talking theory with us all, which is interesting and all. Anyone can talk theory, look at me--for instance. You know what REALLY impresses me about Reg?









    HE CAN GROOVE LIKE A ... I won't be crass, but he is ridiculously groovy with everything he plays. Whether it's his comping--he uses simple voicings, but holey smoley that feel! Or his solos--everything pops. That's what keeps me interested when I hear him play. Unfortunately, knowing all the theory won't get you there--I really wish it did. But working on your time, getting everything to pop and sit just right in the pulse, getting those notes to dance--that's hard. I mean, that's 90% of what people remember when they listen to us play--maybe 10% is tone (but that's usually from fellow guitar geeks like me )

    So, why do I spend so much time on ear training? Well, for one, working on your time is ear training. Two, I want to know exactly what notes to use to in each part of the pocket, or each part of the phrase--control. But it really boils down to, I want those notes to be second nature so I can concentrate on the REAL MEAT of playing with others--that dialogue. Part of the dialogue is hearing the harmony, but the majority of that dialogue is rhythmic. We need to bow down to the alter of time and space, you get my drift: rhythm, pulse, and groove.

    I just listened to Grant Green playing on Miss Ann's Tempo:



    The note choice is cool, but what's really exciting--how he grooooves. Those syncopated hits, the build up rhythmically in what he is doing, it makes you wanna get on up and DANCE.

    Learning all the hip subs is great, I'm still doing that (and trying to get it all to make sense in my ears)--but it doesn't mean jack if I can't lock it in with the band. That's melodic inventiveness, yes--but it's also this unyielding confidence with pulse, rhythm, and groove.

    If we all worked on our time--myself included--and really focused on getting everything to sit exactly where we want it to--I think we'd all experience a ridiculous amount of growth in our playing.

    Now, let's field the question: How do we work on our time? Thoughts, ideas? I have some, but I wanna hear from everyone as well. Remember, I want us all to build this thread together--as an ear training sanctuary (even if you don't subscribe to all the Charlie Banacos stuff I obsess about--I learned my lesson--I want to be inclusive of it all )

    So, any ideas on working on our time? Don't be late .

  23. #322
    Along these lines, listen to what Pete and Adam have to say on practicing time with a metronome:



    Listen to Adam at 7:00 into the video. How many times have I mentioned that type of metronome practice here on the forum? Well, now You'll Hear It!

  24. #323

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post

    Here's where I get a little controversial. I'm gonna talk about Reg for a moment--stick with me. He is really into talking theory with us all, which is interesting and all. Anyone can talk theory, look at me--for instance. You know what REALLY impresses me about Reg?









    HE CAN GROOVE LIKE A ... I won't be crass, but he is ridiculously groovy with everything he plays. Whether it's his comping--he uses simple voicings, but holey smoley that feel! Or his solos--everything pops. That's what keeps me interested when I hear him play.
    Not controversial to me, I've been thinking the same thing for a long time. I would add, he has got his technique down to a high level that is part of what allows him to groove like well, like he does.

    From this thread way back when, Post #63, Fly Me To The Moon-Interactive practical/theory group. I transcribed about half of it, which illustrates what you said, transcription here: Box

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  25. #324

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    Now, let's field the question: How do we work on our time? Thoughts, ideas? I have some, but I wanna hear from everyone as well.
    I think the biggest clue to the answer is to notice something important when reflecting on the nature of the different primary aspects of playing:

    - melody (choice of notes)
    - harmony (choice of chords)
    - rhythm (?)

    Melody and harmony may be played to varying degrees by theory or by ear, but in the execution of both of those made manifest through rhythm, that rhythm aspect even if read on the score and understood theoretically is really actually only played by ear.

    This is an important enlightenment especially for those who self describe themselves at the book and theory end of the spectrum - they may think they do not play by ear, but for the rhythmic aspect of playing, they actually do. Realizing this allows those who don't think they play by ear, but are curious, to examine the feeling of how they play rhythm, as it's already a "by ear" thing, and get some insight into what it means to extend that kind of feeling to melody and harmony.

    But the point is, of melody, harmony, and rhythm, it is rhythm that is first played by ear, most played by ear, and ultimately must be played by ear.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  26. #325

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    Yes I think Rhythm has to be by ear, and the most helpful ways of working on it I’ve found is to audiate it clearly.

    This can be done in a number of ways. Transcription of phrases is one.

    There is a theoretical side to rhythm too of course and a kinaesthetic side too (talk to drummers.) We can understand how to place offbeats for instance, and the learn to audiate that clearly. The egg shaker can be useful in cultivating a Brazilian swing in our playing, and so on.

    To me theory is always about feeding things back into the ear.

  27. #326
    Yey, I finally got pauln to comment on the Ear Training Journal.

    Welcome back to the thread, Chris '77.

    Yes, audition is key. When I studied with Bruce Arnold he kept telling me, DON'T COUNT--hear the rhythms. This is most frequently translated as "feel" the rhythms. I extend this principle to my metronome practice. The whole point is to memorize where the click is in relation to silence. A click of two measures of time at 200bpm has a different sound than a click of 4 measures at 200bpm. I made a post about this idea early on. The key is to hear notes and rhythm in the same principle--SOUND. All too often, we mathematicize rhythm. We count and figure out where the rhythms lie within the count. Hearing rhythm as sound posits that we memorize the SOUND of a rhythm.

    Chris'77, you could implement this by recording the sounds of these rhythms on a drum--and having students match that sound with one of your play cards.

    Many of us seem to go through a transition of banging out random rhythms on our thighs (or in the case of my middle schoolers--on their tables) to this point where we are taught to count out rhythm in a mathematical manner. How about keeping with stage one, and teaching rhythm through sonic imitation?
    Last edited by Irez87; 06-08-2019 at 08:02 PM.

  28. #327

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    There's one thing that Bruce Arnold, Fareed Hague and I have in common. We all learned about ear training from Charlie Banacos. I was terrible. I had a hard time naming the single note Charlie played after he played a chord cadence in C. There were other students that would make me cry. Charlie would play the most nasty sounding chord, C-7#5b9#11b13, yeah one of those chords and the student would not only name the chord, but the order of the notes in the voicing. I did find that most of those students were piano players, but it still made me want to cry. Now that I'm back studying I'm using Charlies lessons for it. In my book, to become a solid jazz musician, it's the most important tool. I'm not saying that Bruce or Fareed received all their ear training knowledge from Charlie and I'm sure they didn't. But I wouldn't be surprised if that's where their coming from in their own teaching.

  29. #328
    Definitely.

    We've had one member share his Charlie Banacos's story.

    Look back on this thread and you'll find it--my favorite part of the entire journal.

    Care to share your Banacos's story?

  30. #329

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    I was away from music for over a decade. Last year I looked into studying with Gary Dial who has taken over teaching the Charlie Banacos methods for Charlies family. I always kept my lesson book from Charlie in a safe place. Knowing that the lessons could be valuable to others the thought of rewriting them and offering them for money did enter my mind, but it didn't feel right, so I never did. When I was corresponding with Gary and the Banacos family I was given a form to sign stating that all of Charlies material was copyrighted and I could not use any of the information for financial gain by teaching/selling it to others. So knowing that. I wonder if Bruce and others received permission from Charlie to teach his material. I know Bruce and Charlie were close, so maybe by Bruce saying where he got his information is Okay with the Banacos family. Personally, I think we should teach Charlies methods as long as we acknowledge him and don't claim to be the creator of the lesson.

    Irez87


    I studied with Charlie from 1996-2001 with some breaks. The pressure that I didn't belong would get go me. I wasn't enrolled at one of the music schools in Boston, and only studied privately before I started with him. I couldn't believe that he would keep taking me back. I was teaching privately and gigging out but I wasn't in the same league as Bruce Arnold, Mike Stern, Vic Juris, Paco, Jeff Berlin, etc. There was a trumpet player who had his lesson before mine on Monday mornings. Charlie asked me if I could switch times with him because he was playing Sunday night at the Montreal Jazz Festival, while I was going to teach kids how to play Green Day later that day!!

    I live fairly close to him and would often see him from time to time over the years and right up to the summer before he passed, he would say, hey man, when am I going to see you for lessons again? He never, ever gave up on me. He passed away 3 months before my Father. I didn't know it at the time. When I found out I was crushed. I still drive by his home and think about him often. He was without doubt, one the most generous, caring, wonderful, unselfish, persons, without ego, that I have ever known.

  31. #330
    Strbender,

    Bruce definitely acknowledges Charlie Banacos. He used to have a family tree where he illustrated his journey and how he continued to teach others--Charlie is near the top of that tree.

    Funnily enough, the bass player that I play with weekly also studied with Charlie--with those cassette tape correspondences. I asked if he could dig up one of his tapes... We'll see

    I'd say that at least 75% of my practice time is devoted to the ear training methods that Charlie started. I like what Bruce did with the studies--he put them all out as Mp3's so you can truly study the materials anywhere. I love the concept of Contextual Ear Training. After studying it for 13+ years, I will NEVER go back to interval training.

    I studied with Bruce for 2 years when I lived in NYC, and I have kept in touch with him for over 13 years thereafter. The ear training is getting REALLY exciting. His most recent courses applied Contextual Ear Training to actual backing tracks (I think he made them with BIAB).

    In the past week, I have finally internalized the sound of a b2 against the home key of a jazz blues, rhythm changes, and some jazz standards. When you sing "rah" against a tune in a minor key--wow, it sounds really pretty. The 2nd (9th) and 4th (11th) sound really nice as well.

    Here is Bruce's newest edition to the Practice Perfect Series: The Jazz Standard Volumes:

    Practice Perfect Applied Jazz Standard Ear Training V1 - Muse EEKMuse EEK

    Someone recently asked JGF how to use movable "do" in a jazz context. I hope that person reads this thread--so I don't have to repeat what's already been said here.

  32. #331

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    Moveable do in jazz is easy - you just go ‘do do do do be do’

  33. #332
    do be do be do be do waaaaaaaaaaaaaah

  34. #333
    I haven't posted in a good while...

    Okay, so here's my solo on Stablemates from a recent jam, warts and all:



    Why am I posting this? Well, I started working on the tune using that Practice Perfect Series: The Jazz Standard Volume 1 course that I spoke of in post #330.

    There's much to improve:

    1. I want to play with more melodic and harmonic clarity--I know I flubbed a lot of the changes, and I over used some themes

    2. I want to play with more rhythmic clarity--confidence is everything, I'm working on mine

    3. I need to keep my focus (at one point I lost the groove)

    4. I need to work on soloing without accompaniment in a live setting--it's hard work--I want to hear the changes both in the bassline and in my head as clear as day... it's getting there, slowly!

    That said, I could never play like this before. I played Stablemates in February and I already hear an improvement. Progress is exciting, especially because it's EAR driven.

    I'm still working on this tune, but I like approaching it from the ear--listening to notes and singing over the changes. With each pass, I add more detail.

    I still cringe when I hear myself play, but I'm getting better at that too
    Last edited by Irez87; 07-20-2019 at 01:11 AM.

  35. #334
    ???

  36. #335

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    I like the sound you got, also the time feel, and the phrases were interesting and melodic.

    My only criticism would be that I could not hear the changes very well in the lines you played. As there was no piano then I think the soloist has to try and make the changes a bit more clear for the listener. I couldn’t easily relate it to Stablemates until I listened on headphones and heard the bass lines (also the bass is low in the mix, that doesn’t help!).

    But having said that, I think this is a pretty difficult tune, the changes are very ‘slippery’ in that Benny Golson manner. I’ve never really learned it properly, I would have to go away and shed it before trying to play a solo on it. In fact I had a go at it today after listening to your clip, and I did not like my own attempt much!

  37. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I like the sound you got, also the time feel, and the phrases were interesting and melodic.

    My only criticism would be that I could not hear the changes very well in the lines you played. As there was no piano then I think the soloist has to try and make the changes a bit more clear for the listener. I couldn’t easily relate it to Stablemates until I listened on headphones and heard the bass lines (also the bass is low in the mix, that doesn’t help!).

    But having said that, I think this is a pretty difficult tune, the changes are very ‘slippery’ in that Benny Golson manner. I’ve never really learned it properly, I would have to go away and shed it before trying to play a solo on it. In fact I had a go at it today after listening to your clip, and I did not like my own attempt much!
    Thanks for listening grahambop!

    My mentor said the same thing--he couldn't hear the changes in my lines very well. That's crucial feedback. That bass player is quite the player--he played with Jack McDuff back in the day! Unfortunately, he doesn't like lugging around his amp--and the space itself isn't conducive to live music...it's a yogurt shop!

    It's a heck of a tune, but it contains so much harmonic vocabulary that--once I get it under my fingers and into my ear some more--I'll be able to apply it to other standards.

  38. #337

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    Well now you’ve made me want to learn it properly - I’m going to shed it. I do more or less know the melody by ear (have listened to it many times), I didn’t really know the changes very well though.

    What I find with a tune like this is that once I have internalised the changes so I can really hear them in my head, it gets much easier to play a reasonable solo on it. I don’t really practise with backing tracks or anything, I just play lines and I sort of know by ear whether they sound ok or not.

    So for this tune I will do a lot of work first just playing the chords, constructing lines over the chord tones etc., until I can hear the ‘structure’. After that I can start to work on playing a decent solo (hopefully). Lots of dominant language in this tune, would be interesting to construct the Barry Harris scale outlines over it perhaps.

  39. #338
    My HUGE suggestion...

    This is gonna sound really weird, but...

    Try to keep the sound of Db major in your head for the whole tune, no matter where the progression goes

    ...it all ultimately resolves to Db

    Oh yeah, and look out for the top of the tune--it friggin starts on a chromatic ii-V completely out of the key.

    I still can't figure out how Benny Golson solos on his own tunes.

    I can hear the tune in what Blue Mitchell, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Dexter, Cannonball, and Wes do when they solo. When Golson solos, he seems like he is coming from a completely different direction...

  40. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    So for this tune I will do a lot of work first just playing the chords, constructing lines over the chord tones etc., until I can hear the ‘structure’. After that I can start to work on playing a decent solo (hopefully). Lots of dominant language in this tune, would be interesting to construct the Barry Harris scale outlines over it perhaps.
    PAGING MR. CHRIS'77 TO THE PERFORMANCE EAR TRAINING ROOM, STAT!

  41. #340

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    Yes Golson is an unusual player, he sort of slips and slides up and down like a bouncing ball. Certainly instantly recognisable!

    The version I know best is Dexter Gordon’s. I’ve also got the Miles and Trane one, haven’t heard it for years though, I’ll have to dig it out.

    I hear the Db centre, the beginning is just a 2-5 which is a half step above the ‘proper’ 2-5 into Db. I think Benny did a lot of that kind of thing. Actually so did Wes come to think of it.

  42. #341
    Blue Mitchell has this:



    They are missing that killer drum intro, but I love Mitchell's ability to play with Mile's melodicism and Freddie's ferocity.

    The most valuable concept all my ear training taught me is always be cognizant of the sound of the tune's key center--especially in a Benny Golson tune!

  43. #342

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    Interesting that the melody has a B over the Dbmaj in bar 3, and a B over the C7 in bar 4. In most of the versions the pianist tends to stay out of the way of that note, or in Miles’ version just lays out on the head!

  44. #343
    The B over the Dbmaj isn't that exotic... I love me a b7th over a I major--I snuck it in on my post of Lullaby of Birdland last month.

    The B over the C7 was a little odd, because of what follows. C7b9 to Abmin7/ Db7... The Db7 seems to fit better(V of IV, or as I hear it--Idom7), throwing in it's ii right after the C7b9 is a little cumbersome.

    Maybe all the charts are wrong?

    Like I said before, I am going over this tune with my mentor. He's very familiar with playing this tune--so I'll see how he goes about playing the harmony.

  45. #344

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    The B over the Dbmaj isn't that exotic... I love me a b7th over a I major--
    Thinking in terms of note names can lead one to avoid notes that would be dissonant if played in the same octave as the chord. But bump them up an octave and they might work, especially if they are part of a melodic line. Maybe we’d feel less conflicted about B over Dbmaj7 if we thought of it as #13?

  46. #345
    Graham mentioned using Stablemates as a vehicle for some interesting dominant language.

    Well, my mentor told me to write 10 tritone lines over the bridge to Rhythm changes and...

    Has anyone ever tried mixing colors/ tensions in one line?

    I mean, using an altered sound and than landing on the natural 9th of the chord?

    Or playing a line that fits in the key, only to land on the #9?

    It's an interesting concept, and when it's done right--I think I found out to create lines like Monk. The mixture really stabs at the ear in a beautiful way.

    I'll try to take a picture of the lines I wrote down. Putting it all in Sibelius and then taking a screen shot is very tidious (Sibelius, not screen shots)

  47. #346
    Hopefully it copied... Anyway, you take these ideas chromatically down the 4ths cycle. They start on Ab7 (the tri-tone of D7)

    eh... I'll try to post it tonight when my wife gets home. She has a Smart Phone, I have Flipper...


  48. #347
    RC Bridge Alt Ideas.pdf

    there... I think you can make out my scribble...

  49. #348

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    slightly off topic..but i know you been havin' thoughts about your guitar/pickup set-up..but in stablemates clip above, i like your tone...real vintagey mids clean but sharp tone...50's vibe.. raney, pisano,bean,budimir...like that

    work with it before abandoning...

    cheers

  50. #349
    YAY

    Yeah, I'm gonna continue to work with it.

    That means a lot, Neatomic! I think I'm finally free from the shackles of Pat Metheny comparisons!

    I love raney, pisano, and billy bean. I gotta check out budimir--didn't he play duo with bean?

  51. #350

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    budimir replaced john pisano, who replaced jim hall...in the chico hamilton quintet...he was playing along side eric dolphy in that band...

    he was friends with bean and pisano and they issued some lo fi tapes they made

    Journal of Performance Ear Training-hqdefault-jpg

    he also replaced bean in bud shanks band...to good effect on this early surf film soundtrack

    barefoot adventure



    cheers